<div dir="ltr"><div>Dear All,</div><div> Karl's email evokes an interesting intellectual and cognitive experience in me. I remember it with a schematic and quick reasoning, S. Hawking in 1975 bets that black holes swallow everything, but emit nothing (including information). John Preskill argues otherwise. On July 23, 2004, the wheelchair-bound physicist declares: "I was wrong about black holes." Indeed, ideally, I too won the bet because with my economic-logical thinking, I anticipated Hawking by about fifteen years.<br>My process of trans-in-formation says that any black or magic box - black hole, biological being, company defined as factory-market system, etc. - consists in the input (input) of matter, energy and information and in the emission (output) of matter, energy and information in a different state. So Hawking's thesis that black holes swallow everything without emitting anything was not and is not compatible with my epistemo-onto-logic.<br>Terry's words are wise and enlightened, as always: information is a polysemic linguistic-semantic sign. So every student must first state what he means or how he defines information and how it is measured in the context of the knowledge of natural or human science under examination. Thank you, Francesco<br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div>Cari Tutti,<div>l'e-mail di Karl evoca in me un'interessante esperienza intellettuale e cognitiva. La ricordo con un un ragionamento schematico</div><div>e veloce, S. Hawking nel 1975 scommette che i buchi neri fagocitano tutto, ma non emettono niente (compresa l'informazione). </div><div>John Preskill sostiene il contrario. Il 23 luglio 2004, il fisico in carrozzella dichiara: "Sui buchi neri avevo torto". Invero la scommessa,</div><div>idealmente, l'ho vinta anch'io perché col mio pensiero economico-logico, ho anticipato Hawking di circa quindici anni.</div><div><br></div><div>Il mio processo di tras-in-formazione dice che qualunque scatola nera o magica -- buco nero, essere biologico, azienda definita</div><div>sistema fabbrica-mercato, etc. -- consiste nell'immissione (input) di materia, energia e informazione e nell'emissione (output) di materia,</div><div>energia e informazione in uno stato diverso. Quindi la tesi di Hawking che i buchi neri ingoiano tutto senza emettere niente non</div><div>era e non è compatibile con la mia epistemo-onto-logica.</div><div><br></div><div>Le parole di Terry sono sagge e illuminate, come sempre: l'informazione è un segno linguistico-semantico polisemico. Quindi ogni studioso</div><div>deve premettere cosa intende o come definisce l'informazione e come si misura nel contesto del sapere della scienza naturale o umana</div><div>in esame.</div><div>Un abbraccio. Grazie.</div><div>Francesco</div><div> P.s</div><div>Grazie Pedro, vedi quanto sono poverino? Se ci sono disguidi di traduzione mi farebbe piacere conoscerli.</div><div>Grazie ancora.</div><div>Francesco</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Il giorno gio 8 ott 2020 alle ore 21:29 Terrence W. DEACON <<a href="mailto:deacon@berkeley.edu">deacon@berkeley.edu</a>> ha scritto:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">Dear colleagues,</div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Endless circles. Depending on who is writing the FIS communication the term 'information' is implicitly assumed to be one of the following (while all other definitions are treated as illegitimate):<div><br></div><div>1. the physical signal medium</div><div>2. the statistical properties of the physical signal medium</div><div>3. what the statistical properties of the physical signal medium could possibly be about</div><div>4. what the statistical properties of the physical signal medium are specifically about for some interpreting agent</div><div>5. what the statistical properties of the physical signal medium are specifically about that is useful for some interpreting agent<br></div><div>... and possibly more.</div><div><br></div><div>Of course none of these are illegitimate definitions, depending on the context of their use. But if these different assumptions are not distinguished it can lead to mutually incompatible accounts and tiresome semantic quibbles. The Black Hole account clearly assumes 1 and possibly 2. From my perspective, however, things only start to get interesting with 3, 4, and 5. But we will never succeed in resolving the challenges posed by them if we continue to try to collapse these distinctions and argue that a particular use is the only legitimate scientifically valid one. I know I must sound like a broken record when I suggest that our discussions would be more fruitful and less contentious if people would just recognize this polysemy and indicate which of the possible uses of the term they are assuming.</div><div><br></div><div>— Terry</div></div></div></div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 8:45 AM Karl Javorszky <<a href="mailto:karl.javorszky@gmail.com" target="_blank">karl.javorszky@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span lang="FR">Dear Xueshan,
Krassimir et al,<span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span lang="FR"><span> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">In my humble reasoned opinion, this group should already
have been nominated for the next Nobel prize; whether in Physics or Biology, is
but a detail.<span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">We have, during the last 25 years, under the prophetic leadership
of Pedro, arrived at cornering the term ‘information’ on many levels and by
many descriptions. The group work has been done by the non-dogmatic, dialogic
method, by employing the recurrent questioning technique of Socrates: <i>But then, how do you explain this:?<span></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">In the present iteration, Krassimir again raises the point
of <i>information is in your head. </i>The
answer is, again, that we would not have an organ for perceiving <b>information</b>,
if the stimuli which this organ perceives, would not have an <b>independent,
interpersonal</b> <b>existence</b>.<span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt 36pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span style="font-size:10pt">Compare
it with the perception of magnetism by migratory birds or of electric fields by
some sea floor searching predators. Discussing among each other, two storks can
agree that magnetism is only in a stork’s head, as can two hammerhead sharks
agree, that electric impulses of the prey are only in the heads of hammerhead
sharks. Owls would not agree with snakes, that the smell and warmth is what is
important to watch for, because they know that it is the noise and the optical
pattern of the prey what decides about the success of the catch. Humans happen
to use information in the same fashion, without being presently able to agree
on the semantics of the concept, much less a name for it. <span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Information is the slight deviation between how it should be
and how it is. The deviation between what can be the case and what is the case is
a property that transcends smell, magnetism, optical pattern properties, noises
and warmth. Both the <i>how should it be </i>and
the <i>how is it </i>are pictured in the
brain of the predator. Humans are able to talk about the difference. Sharks,
owls et al are acting on the difference (by moving – in several senses – in such
a fashion, until the perception hits the match between how it is and how it should
be: that is, the impression fits the schema). Humans also act on the difference
(they eat if they are hungry), but they are able to talk about the difference
also. They may call it a reverie, a wish-fulfilling phantasy, an elaborate
complot, an intrigue, a plan, an inventory, a design, a model, a roadmap, a
flow diagram and an algorithm. <span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><b>If you look at a pizza</b> of which a slice is missing,
the <b>pictures</b> of the <i>factually present</i> part, the <i>expectation</i>
of the whole pizza and the <i>information</i>, that such a slice has already
been eaten, <b>are only in your head</b>. We certainly agree, that the partly
eaten pizza exists furthermore in the actual world, too. This is what we say is
the case. What Krassimir implies is, that the whole pizza does not exist
outside of our head, nor does in his view exist the slice of the pizza that has
been eaten, in the outside world, neither. This may be evidently true in the
case of pizzas. What we <i>talk about </i>is
indeed only in our head. What we <i>experience</i>,
is actually present in the outside world. <span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><b>How have we got there</b> that we experience the whole of
the pizza and the missing part also, even if these are not actually there? The
answer is in the pre-logical, axiomatic nature of our world being subject to <i>periodic
changes</i>. We can take a lunar month as a convenient example, because it is faster
than the year period and slower than the day period. In any moment, we are experiencing
a partly eaten pizza, here in the form of a partly consumed day, lunar month,
year. By being adapted to our planet’s periodic habits, we <i>know</i>, what
part of the day has already passed, and which seasons are yet to come, and if
one is of a poetic inclination, how far the Moon is from being fully round again.
Our pizza is a temporal one, and there exist objective facts, which determine,
what part of it has been eaten by Time, that eternal devourer and recreator of
pizzas. One may assent to Krassimir: yes, our pictures are in our head, but then
add: they reflect the outside world correctly. In the outside world there is
always, in every moment, a partly fulfilled <i>is-the-case
</i>which can be easily and explicitly, exactly distinguished to a relevant <i>can-be-the-case</i>, and the difference
between these two, which we call <i>information</i>,
in other words, what could also have become the case, or simply, what <i>is-not-the-case</i>. By this window, we have
climbed into that room, on the door of which Wittgenstein has fixed a note: “Do
not enter here. You get crazy here. You would need devices not invented yet to
deal with what is not the case. Leave this subject aside for a while. Better
not say anything about what is not the case.”<span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">All sensory organs use the difference between the schema and
the impression. Humans have invented the sensibility to talk about the
sensitivity as such. The alertness as a neurological faculty is of course a
property of highly regulated systems, but the stimulus must exist on lower
levels, too, if the perception of it is optimised for reasons of evolution. <span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">That there is an <b>innate, immanent, axiomatic wiggle-woggle</b>
among several variants of <i>is-the-case </i>is
what is hard to swallow, intellectually. One loves his Descartes home where
Newton rules. Who would want to live in <i>two
</i>Descartes spaces which partly crowd each other out, usually merging more or
less peacefully into <i>one </i>space, in
which the Newton etc laws are valid, but mostly in the form of some special
cases, among manifold, interacting others? <span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">We build the picture of the world according to the axioms we
experience, perceive and learn. If the picture of the world is incoherent,
illogical, contradictory or inexplicable, then the axioms are to be questioned
in the order: <i>learnt – perceived –
experienced</i>, because if the individual is healthy, his experiences are in
congruence with Nature; although he may perceive other stimuli than usual, as
long as his faculty of perception is working, the reason for the many riddles
in his picture of the world can only be in that set of axioms which he has
learnt. To paraphrase Wittgenstein: if we lived in harmony with Nature, we
would understand how she works, even if we were not able to speak about it.
(Because we would lack the words for dissonances and urges, in Nirvana
everything being always in its perfect realisation.)<span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">We have problems with our <b>prefabricated concepts</b>,
with the words we use. We are used, e.g., to speaking about <i>6 </i>as if it was one indivisible
Sachverhalt, which can be included in some Zusammenhaenge. Six is however the
first case of a collection being sufficiently similar so that a difference can
be pointed out (3 are the background to a different 3, on which it is
demonstrated that 1 is different to 2, which in the background is not the
case.) If one plays with six units, one almost inevitably creates
monstrosities, which are a hybrid between a partition and a permutation. These
are the first Lego or Tetris elements of a new algorithm, words of a logical
language, in which a Zusammenhang among several Sachverhalte can be expressed,
both in a sequential reading and in a commutative one. <span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Dear Xueshan, Krassimir, and you all my respected right
honourable learned friends, please circulate the following invitation on your
respective black boards: <span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt 36pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><i><span style="font-size:10pt">“Wanted:
Programmers, graphic artists, data miners. Task: Data crunching on natural
numbers. Tabulating. Maintaining a database /a little brother of oeis/ on names
of patterns. Designers and name-givers: hunt for and classify patterns. Must be
ready to count different kinds of cuts on intervals. No cash payments possible
yet. First class promises. Needs venture capital. Great potential. Radically
new method of counting explains some of Nature’s shenanigans.”<span></span></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">The hybrids (partitions laid over each other, rotated) would
be of eminent interest to particle physicists, if they ever got around to
combining their ideas about what, where and when. Astrophysicists could find
some imaginative reveries if they contemplated the pictures Nature draws when
undecided about which, if any, order exists: how much of something is usually
where, and so forth. It is indeed educative if one studies the tables of
trigonometry and of multiplication and of sorting and of addition and of
reordering, if one wants to have a solid grasp of what a Zusammenhang is among
Sachverhalte. Even more educative, if one outlines, draws and fills up a table oneself
according to some elementary rules that have not been investigated yet. This
requires preparedness for self-education, the main task is done by the numbers.
The Zusammenhang lies imbedded in the Sachverhalte. There exists a Zusammenhang
which relates to the way we distinctly count what follows in a different state
of the world and what is different within the same state of the world. We are
used to placing the Sachverhalte in differing contexts. This creates manifold
inexactitudes in the relative references. The whole is here understood as a
prediction, the actually existing part is the fulfilment, and the collection of
inexactitudes is the information in the statement. The model is a picture we
make in our own head, but the model mirrors Nature well. <span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><b>There is an inbuilt
rivalry</b> between <i>a</i> and <i>b</i>, and the cuts that separate these two,
are alive and kicking. We cannot afford to neglect them, if we want to count
exactly. The cuts cannot be left aside. We have to count with them. The rules
of counting in terms of cuts are more or less self-explanatory, but the task
needs name-givers for the results /proto-agglomerations/. Information is a
property of the physical world, and our senses have learnt to use it. Unifying
the counting unit means that we accept that we live in a three-phased dual
world, of which the axes are differently numbered. The axioms we <i>experience </i>support
the idea, as we procreate by merging two versions of the same story. The axioms
we <i>perceive</i> intuitively reject the idea, because we live in <i>one </i>world, but insight supports it by
means of microscopes and other devices that enhance perception, where we
discover duality to actually exist in molecules and in many other realisations
of Nature. The axioms we have <i>learnt</i> are the only difficulty to
overcome. We have gotten used to a traditional model, which is nice for its
simplicity, but not precise enough to be able to differentiate among slightly
deviating perspectives. Our mysteries are self-created, they come about by our
neglecting the syntax of the left side of <i>a+b=c</i>,
having thought erroneously, that counting only by means of the syntactically
simple units of the right side is precise enough. <span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">The Nobel prize should be awarded to the FIS as a group. We
could not have come so far without each other. The dialogue has kept this group
awake. Our many various half-baked ideas about what is information have in the
concentrated lights of so many minds yielded a common roast, which is the nourishing
slice of the pizza of information. <span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span> </span></p><div>
Best wishes to you all</div><div>Karl<br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Am Di., 6. Okt. 2020 um 16:19 Uhr schrieb Krassimir Markov <<a href="mailto:markov@foibg.com" target="_blank">markov@foibg.com</a>>:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr" lang="ZH-CN">
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Calibri;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<div><font size="4">Dear <span style="line-height:16pt;text-indent:0cm" lang="EN-US">Xueshan,<br></span></font></div>
<div><font size="4"><span style="line-height:16pt;text-indent:0cm" lang="EN-US">I
have only one remark.<br>The Nobel Prize is given to researchers but not to the
Black hole and not to any other object in the Cosmos!</span></font></div><font size="4"><span style="line-height:16pt;text-indent:0cm" lang="EN-US">
<div><br>Without observer there is no Black hole entropy, there is no
information.<br></div>
<div>So, the consciousness is needed to reflect reality and to assume some
reflections as information.</div></span></font></div>
<div><font size="4"><span style="line-height:16pt;text-indent:0cm" lang="EN-US"></span></font> </div>
<div><font size="4"><span style="line-height:16pt;text-indent:0cm" lang="EN-US">Friendly
greetings</span></font></div>
<div><font size="4"><span style="line-height:16pt;text-indent:0cm" lang="EN-US">Krassimir</span></font></div>
<div><font size="4"><span style="line-height:16pt;text-indent:0cm" lang="EN-US"></span></font> </div>
<div><font size="4"><span style="line-height:16pt;text-indent:0cm" lang="EN-US"></span></font> </div>
<div><font size="4"><span style="line-height:16pt;text-indent:0cm" lang="EN-US"></span></font> </div>
<div style="font-size:small;text-decoration:none;font-family:Calibri;font-weight:normal;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-style:normal;display:inline">
<div style="font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:10pt;line-height:normal;font-family:tahoma">
<div> </div>
<div style="background-image:none;background-color:rgb(245,245,245);background-position:0% 0%">
<div><b>From:</b> <a title="yxs@pku.edu.cn" href="mailto:yxs@pku.edu.cn" target="_blank">Xueshan Yan</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 06, 2020 3:37 PM</div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a title="fis@listas.unizar.es" href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">FIS Group</a> </div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> [Fis] black hole and information</div></div></div>
<div> </div></div>
<div style="font-size:small;text-decoration:none;font-family:Calibri;font-weight:normal;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-style:normal;display:inline">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent:0cm"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">Dear colleagues</span><span style="font-size:12pt">，<span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent:0cm"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent:0cm"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">This year's Nobel Prize in physics goes to black hole
research today. When the curvature of space-time of a celestial body is so large
that even light cannot escape from its event horizon, we call it a black hole.
I. Once a black hole is formed, except for mass, angular momentum, and electric
charge, all the previous material properties as objects disappear; II. The
horizon area of the black hole is equal to its entropy (entropy equals negative
information). These two issues form a close relationship between the research of
black hole and information. The follow-up effect of this year's Nobel Prize in
physics may lead to further thinking on the information in the future by
astrophysicists, and lay a reverie foundation for the informational
interpretation of matter several years later.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent:0cm"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent:0cm"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">Best wishes and health,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent:0cm"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">Xueshan</span><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p></div>
<p>
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<a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><br>
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INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL<br>
<br>
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.<br>
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: <a href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a><br>
Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.<br>
<a href="http://listas.unizar.es" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://listas.unizar.es</a><br>
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</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr">Professor Terrence W. Deacon<br>University of California, Berkeley</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
Fis mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br>
<a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><br>
----------<br>
INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL<br>
<br>
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.<br>
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: <a href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a><br>
Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.<br>
<a href="http://listas.unizar.es" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://listas.unizar.es</a><br>
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</blockquote></div>