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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=JA link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:游ゴシック;color:#1F497D'>On Wednesday, September 30, 2020 3:00 AM, Loet Leydesdorff wrote: </span><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif'>The forward perspective can only see the morphogenesis "bottom up", but not the emerging control mechanisms and their interactions.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:游ゴシック;color:#1F497D'>The emerging control accommodates what is going to be to what has been. The earlier entries can set the conditions for regulating the later ones in a top-down manner unless mechanics is forcibly applied there.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:游ゴシック;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:游ゴシック;color:#1F497D'> Best,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:游ゴシック;color:#1F497D'> Koichiro Matsuno<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:游ゴシック;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:游ゴシック;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:游ゴシック;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0mm 0mm 0mm'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> Fis <fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Loet Leydesdorff<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, September 30, 2020 3:00 AM<br><b>To:</b> Pedro C. Marijuan <pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es>; Christophe Menant <christophe.menant@hotmail.fr>; fis <fis@listas.unizar.es><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fis] Fwd: The 10 Principles<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div id=xb59c9a6dd372478><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0mm 0mm 0mm 8.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:2.25pt;margin-right:0mm;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif'>About the loop you mention in the definition of information proposed in Principle 1, there is a very clear starting point: the origins of life. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif'>I don't think that evolution is emanating from a starting point. Complexity is constructed in terms of resonances ex post. The forward perspective can only see the morphogenesis "bottom up", but not the emerging control mechanisms and their interactions.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div id=xb59c9a6dd372478><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div id=xb59c9a6dd372478><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif'>In other words, historical development is to be distinguished from evolutionary dynamics. Otherwise, the explanation becomes "historicistic".<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div id=xb59c9a6dd372478><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div id=xb59c9a6dd372478><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif'>Best,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div id=xb59c9a6dd372478><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif'>Loet. <br><br><o:p></o:p></span></p><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0mm 0mm 0mm 8.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:2.25pt;margin-right:0mm;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif'>Best greetings<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif'>--Pedro<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif'>El 25/09/2020 a las 13:46, Christophe Menant escribió:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0mm 0mm 0mm 8.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0mm;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black;mso-fareast-language:FR'>Dear Pedro, <br>It is true that using constraints relative to 3000 genes would bring in a level of complexity difficult to manage. But the usage of the Meaning Genartaor System is with higher level entities where the constraints are of a generic type, like “Stay alive” and “Look for happiness”. By the way, I’m not alone on that perspective. See <a href="https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-030-01198-7_6#aboutcontent">https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-030-01198-7_6#aboutcontent</a> where different type of “control constraints” are introduced at basic life level, associated to “meaningful interpretation” and “significances”. Also, the concept of constraint satisfaction as an entry point to cognition looks as accepted by the community (“a system is cognitive if and only if sensory inputs serve to trigger actions in a specific way, so as to satisfy a viability constraint” [Bourgine, Stewart 2004]). So I don’t see very well why there is a reluctance to use a system approach on meaning generation for constraint satisfaction. What would be your position on that point?<br>An advantage of the system approach is to allow the modeling of meaning generation in artificial agents with derived constraints. Meaning generation in living entities and in AAs can then be compared with the same tool. This highlights some concerns relative to artificial life and artificial intelligence, with ethical components (<a href="https://philpapers.org/archive/MENTTC-2.pdf">https://philpapers.org/archive/MENTTC-2.pdf</a> ). <br>On that subject I do not see very well how the 10 principles are linked to artificial cognition, which is, I feel, an important item for principles of information in our world where artificial agents participate more and more to all components of our lives. Could you tell us more on that? <br>All the best <br>Christophe<br></span><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>Bourgine, P. Stewart, J. (2004) ‘Autopoiesis and cognition’ Artificial life, Summer 2004, Vol. 10, No. 3, MIT Press Journals. <a href="http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/abs/10.1162/1064546041255557#.VJLBnCuG-UI">http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/abs/10.1162/1064546041255557#.VJLBnCuG-UI</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif'><hr size=2 width="98%" align=center></span></div><div id=divRplyFwdMsg><p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>De :</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'> Fis <a href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es"><fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es></a> de la part de Pedro C. Marijuan <a href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es"><pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es></a><br><b>Envoyé :</b> vendredi 18 septembre 2020 20:01<br><b>À :</b> 'fis' <a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es"><fis@listas.unizar.es></a><br><b>Objet :</b> Re: [Fis] Fwd: The 10 Principles</span><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif'>Dear All,<br>Thanks to Jose Javier for his comments. Regarding the loop you mention about distinction, you are right, but this is a very characteristic of life (see that Maturana and Varela already said something pretty similar in their Tree of Knowledge). In the other biological principles that follow (below) I try to clarify that notion in several directions, particularly concerning signaling systems, a concept which was completely ignored until well in the 1990s. Your second comment may be partially responded looking at those further principles dealing with the symbolic communication via language and the social narratives, not far from what you have pointed. Thus I include the whole principles herein.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph;line-height:14.0pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif'>1. Information is distinction on an <i>adjacent </i>difference. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph;line-height:14.0pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif'>2. Information processes consist in organized action upon differences collected onto structures, patterns, sequences, messages, or flows.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph;line-height:14.0pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif'>3. Information flows are essential organizers of life's self-production process –the life cycle– anticipating, shaping, and mixing up with the accompanying energy flows.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph;line-height:14.0pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif'>4. Proto-phenomena of meaning, knowledge, and cognition (& intelligence) emerge via signaling systems of living cells, fully developed in the action/perception cycle of central nervous systems.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph;line-height:14.0pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif'>5. Information/communication exchanges among adaptive life-cycles underlie the complexity of biological organization at all scales.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph;line-height:14.0pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif'>6. It is symbolic language what conveys the essential communication exchanges of individuals —and constitutes the core of human "social nature."<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph;line-height:14.0pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif'>7. Human information can be transformed into efficient knowledge by following the "knowledge instinct", further enhanced and delimited by collectively applying rigorous methodologies.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph;line-height:14.0pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif'>8. Human cognitive limitations are partially overcome via "knowledge ecologies", where knowledge circulates and recombines socially in a continuous actualization that involves "creative destruction" of theories, practices, and disciplines.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph;line-height:14.0pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif'>9. Narratives become encapsulated forms of “natural intelligence”, tailored to capture collective attention and memory, and essential for the cohesion of social, political, and economic structures.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph;line-height:14.0pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif'>10. Information science proposes a new, radical vision on how information and knowledge surround individual lives, with profound consequences for scientific-philosophical practice and for social governance.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif'>Briefly referring to the other discussion track (Christophe), I quite agree with situating the origins of (genuine) meaning with living beings, but have some trouble with "constraints" when generally applied to biological cognition. I think they may be more useful in other fields (originated in kinematics, they become more and more volatile as used in Dynamic Systems Theory, and similarly weakened when going from AI to biological cognition). For instance, given 3,000 genes in Ecoli, organized in mixed clusters of fiendish complexity, how do you establish meaningful constraints? Or can even attribute separate "functions"? You may see in DOI:<a href="https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fderef%2Fhttp%253A%252F%252Fdx.doi.org%252F10.1016%252Fj.pbiomolbio.2015.07.002%3F_sg%255B0%255D%3DnH-ziIzFNlPKAqMszwKA9aJSdUF_He_Rfcal3jUKXaF_lvDrbTWXcTEDtf5uNRaHZMzJ0MFczgM3J-aub54-p6oiQA.Vi1baoaYqIl4vlby-pQVd58ob8urom6m0dhZo1yJ26_NjwihWirad9bxSivcVUymzy-vS1FcL9dD4ZQ7UDtz_w&data=02%7C01%7C%7C13a6b1012e6746c2a97208d85bfd00a1%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637360489476081481&sdata=Gs6M4SxmClw83ShkAl9Vf7UIYyppHAAUxprvHFtZDRY%3D&reserved=0"> 10.1016/j.pbiomolbio.2015.07.002</a><span class=xnova-e-link> the very dimensions of this ontology problem.</span><a href="https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fderef%2Fhttp%253A%252F%252Fdx.doi.org%252F10.1016%252Fj.pbiomolbio.2015.07.002%3F_sg%255B0%255D%3DnH-ziIzFNlPKAqMszwKA9aJSdUF_He_Rfcal3jUKXaF_lvDrbTWXcTEDtf5uNRaHZMzJ0MFczgM3J-aub54-p6oiQA.Vi1baoaYqIl4vlby-pQVd58ob8urom6m0dhZo1yJ26_NjwihWirad9bxSivcVUymzy-vS1FcL9dD4ZQ7UDtz_w&data=02%7C01%7C%7C13a6b1012e6746c2a97208d85bfd00a1%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637360489476091476&sdata=sVOZBlgJExzw%2F4z0j2flYw5BaV%2FXYR7jFcpIMyFnP3g%3D&reserved=0"><br></a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif'>Regarding Marcus' comment on life as imprecisely defined (and whether viruses or Gaia are 'alive'), the fundamental issue in natural sciences is "explaining" rather than defining. And fortunately the advancement in our explanations of life in last decades has been fantastic. Life can now be characterized in every basic aspect with amazing depth. One cannot give a precise definition of life, but one can provide a list of essential characteristics, and at the center are the informational ones. Empirically, the point is that information appears to be so ingrained in the molecular organization of life that scores of new bio-disciplines have been recently launched around it: bioinformatics, bioinformation, biocomputation, all the "omic" fields, signaling science, etc. Biosemiotics could be included too, but Hélas, most biosemioticians continue to "read" the DNA meaning via the genetic code, rather than exploring the "signals" abduced from the environment and "distinctionally worked out and transcribed in genes--from which ultimately "meaning" emerges. About viruses concretely, they have been essential in the origins of eukaryotic complexity and in the dynamic balance of marine and terrestrial ecosystems... irrespective on how we consider their degree of "aliveness". And finally "non comment" about some (baiting?) expressions in your previous reply. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif'>I see right now the careful "review" by Loet: better for a next occasion!<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif'>Best--Pedro<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif'>PS. The Three Messages per Week are counted following the international business week (from Monday to Sunday included).<o:p></o:p></span></p><pre><span lang=EN-US>-- <o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=EN-US>-------------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=EN-US>Pedro C. Marijuán<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=EN-US>Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=EN-US><a href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=EN-US><a href="https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fsites.google.com%2Fsite%2Fpedrocmarijuan%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C13a6b1012e6746c2a97208d85bfd00a1%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637360489476101473&sdata=qqQnEhGLj93r21FFf%2FVrVDxydwdVhbWPCUYwD9Lfil8%3D&reserved=0">http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=EN-US>------------------------------------------------- <o:p></o:p></span></pre><div id="x_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2"><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><table class=MsoNormalTable border=1 cellpadding=0 style='border:none;border-top:solid #D3D4DE 1.0pt'><tr><td width=55 style='width:41.25pt;border:none;padding:13.5pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><a href="https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.avast.com%2Fsig-email%3Futm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dlink%26utm_campaign%3Dsig-email%26utm_content%3Demailclient&data=02%7C01%7C%7C13a6b1012e6746c2a97208d85bfd00a1%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637360489476111466&sdata=if5AFBKE0hLs1QmC4tnuECgjMMf9ZAdclujfkBfZaqI%3D&reserved=0"><span style='font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0mm;text-decoration:none'><img border=0 width=46 height=29 style='width:.4791in;height:.302in' id="図_x0020_2" src="cid:image001.jpg@01D697FC.F1107A30" alt="イメージは差出人によって削除されました。"></span></a></span><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif'><o:p></o:p></span></p></td><td width=470 style='width:352.5pt;border:none;padding:12.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='line-height:13.5pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#41424E'>Libre de virus. <a href="https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.avast.com%2Fsig-email%3Futm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dlink%26utm_campaign%3Dsig-email%26utm_content%3Demailclient&data=02%7C01%7C%7C13a6b1012e6746c2a97208d85bfd00a1%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637360489476121462&sdata=yu23Ci0EU1I6RptgsSyMTMLiBOrDcdKfQESRwSX9ud4%3D&reserved=0"><span style='color:#4453EA'>www.avast.com</span></a> <o:p></o:p></span></p></td></tr></table></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif'><br><br><o:p></o:p></span></p><pre><span lang=EN-US>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=EN-US>Fis mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=EN-US><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=EN-US><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=EN-US>----------<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=EN-US>INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=EN-US>Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=EN-US>Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: <a href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=EN-US>Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=EN-US><a href="http://listas.unizar.es">http://listas.unizar.es</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=EN-US>----------<o:p></o:p></span></pre></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><pre><span lang=EN-US>-- <o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=EN-US>-------------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=EN-US>Pedro C. Marijuán<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=EN-US>Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=EN-US><a href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=EN-US><a href="http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/">http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=EN-US>------------------------------------------------- <o:p></o:p></span></pre></blockquote></div></div></body></html>