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<DIV><FONT size=4>Dear Pedro,<BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>I agree with your point of view! </FONT><FONT size=4>Let it be
as you prefer.<BR><BR>My understanding is not so different – yes, information
does not exists out of the live creatures.<BR>There are several live levels, so
the corresponded levels of types of information should exist.<BR><BR>I think,
the variety of principles is good for further development.<BR><BR>I shall
continue working on the research starting from the primary concept
“reflection”.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>It not contradicts to your principles but, I think, it is a
good other explanation of the same phenomena.<BR><BR>I hope, soon I shall start
publishing several lectures on General Information Theory.<BR>They will be
published in the Int. Journal of Information Theories and Applications and
posted in the ITHEA® Forum on GIT .<BR>I shall inform FIS when it will be done.
<BR><BR>Friendly greetings</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Krassimir</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
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<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es
href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es">Pedro C. Marijuan</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Monday, September 28, 2020 3:54 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=christophe.menant@hotmail.fr
href="mailto:christophe.menant@hotmail.fr">Christophe Menant</A> ; <A
title=fis@listas.unizar.es href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es">'fis'</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Fis] Fwd: The 10 Principles</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV
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<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix>Dear List,</DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix> </DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix>Responding to Christophe, I was aware of the works of
those research groups (some of my own country). Well, philosophically and
theoretically it may be an interesting approach, but I fail to see a clear
connection with the biomolecular themes that center my own research--not a
single word on signaling systems, nor on the life cycle, nor on the information
flow. I personally think cognition and meaning can also be approached
differently, with a new "informational" interpretation closer to signaling
science and systems biology. So to speak, those views are from the "top down",
while my own preference is the "bottom up" accompanied by the exploration of a
simpler, down to earth, conceptual apparatus. Actually, evolution has proceeded
via "bricolage" (as François Jaconb put) and the innumerable interactions among
living systems conducing to the evolutionary complexity-growth lack any top down
design. The proposed constraint "to be alive" is but the very essence of life
(together with reproduction), it means the "conatus principle" of Spinoza... So
I respect those views but I do not share them.</DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix> </DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix>About the other question, I see no objection to
utilizing the constraint satisfaction in top-down designed artificial systems or
agents. Then, my impression is that you can compare with the same tool both the
artificial and the biological--but it is by using a "sanitized" top down version
of the latter. Rather I voluntarily opted for "natural intelligence" in the 10
principles (the 9th one). As you well know, cognitive science and AI itself have
had a serious conceptual trouble by following "the mind as a computer" metaphor,
even potentially to be run in "any kind of hardware", and pretty soon downloaded
in supercomputers (matrix style). <SPAN class=gL9Hy>Finally it is the substratum
of </SPAN><SPAN class=gL9Hy>tecno-utopism doctrines such as </SPAN><SPAN
class=gL9Hy>"transhumanism" and Kurt Wenzel "great singularity" ... Evidently
you are not arguing in that direction, but I really see the need to take a
separated stance. <BR></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix><SPAN class=gL9Hy><BR></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix><SPAN class=gL9Hy>Responding to Krassimir, I think my
own position is very clear: information is contemplated from a biological
perspective, with its (meaning&cognition) correlations associated to the
advancement of a life cycle. But I do not deny a possible convergence with
quantum information science new approaches. As Joseph and Karl have noted from
very different angles, there are ways to explore further connotations of
"adjacency", beyond the direct bio implications of molecular-recognition.
</SPAN>(By the way, there was a great fis discussion session on "<STRONG><A
href="http://fis-mail.sciforum.net/1069.html" target=_blank>Molecular
Recognition and the Fundamental Laws of Information</A></STRONG>" by
Shu-Kun Lin. July 14, 2003). <SPAN class=gL9Hy>I often cite a quotation from
Michel Conrad: </SPAN><SPAN class=gL9Hy></SPAN><I
style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style='FONT-FAMILY: "Times New
roman","serif"; mso-ansi-language: EN-US'>"when
we look at a biological system, we are looking at the face of the underlying
physics of the universe." </SPAN></I>About the loop you mention in the
definition of information proposed in Principle 1, there is a very clear
starting point: the origins of life. <BR></DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix> </DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix>Best greetings</DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix>--Pedro<BR></DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix><SPAN class=gL9Hy><BR></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix><SPAN class=gL9Hy><BR></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix>El 25/09/2020 a las 13:46, Christophe Menant
escribió:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
cite=mid:PR1PR02MB53385D180F9B4F4065C480088C360@PR1PR02MB5338.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com
type="cite">
<STYLE style="DISPLAY: none"
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<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0)"><SPAN
lang=EN-US
style='FONT-SIZE: 12pt; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 1pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; mso-ansi-language: en-us; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New
roman"; mso-border-alt: none windowtext
0cm; mso-fareast-language: fr; mso-bidi-language: ar-sa'>Dear
Pedro, <BR>It is true that using constraints relative to 3000 genes would
bring in a level of complexity <SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>difficult to manage. But the usage of
the Meaning Genartaor System is with higher level entities where the
constraints are of a generic type, like “Stay alive” and “Look for happiness”.
<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>By the way, I’m not alone on that
perspective. See <A
href="https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-030-01198-7_6#aboutcontent"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-030-01198-7_6#aboutcontent</A><SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>where different type of “control
constraints” are introduced at basic life level, associated to “meaningful
interpretation” and “significances”. Also, the<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>concept of constraint satisfaction as
an entry point to cognition looks as accepted by the community (“a system is
cognitive if and only if sensory inputs serve to trigger actions in a specific
way, so as to satisfy a viability constraint” [Bourgine, Stewart 2004]). <SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>So I don’t see very well why there is a
reluctance to use a system approach on meaning generation for constraint
satisfaction. What would be your position on that point?<BR>An advantage of
the system approach is to allow the modeling of meaning generation in
artificial agents with derived constraints. Meaning generation in living
entities and in AAs can then be compared with the same tool. This highlights
some concerns relative to artificial life and artificial intelligence, with
ethical components (<A href="https://philpapers.org/archive/MENTTC-2.pdf"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://philpapers.org/archive/MENTTC-2.pdf</A> ).
<BR>On that subject I do not see very well how the 10 principles are linked to
artificial cognition, which is, I feel, an important item for principles of
information in our world where artificial agents participate more and more to
all components of our lives. Could you tell us more on that? <BR>All the best
<BR>Christophe<BR></SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-US
style='FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New
roman",serif; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-font-family: "times new
roman"; mso-fareast-language: FR; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA'>Bourgine,
P. Stewart, J. (2004) ‘Autopoiesis and cognition’ Artificial life, Summer
2004, Vol. 10, No. 3, MIT Press Journals. <A
href="http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/abs/10.1162/1064546041255557#.VJLBnCuG-UI"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/abs/10.1162/1064546041255557#.VJLBnCuG-UI</A></SPAN><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri,helvetica,sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0)"> </DIV>
<HR tabIndex=-1 style="WIDTH: 98%; DISPLAY: inline-block">
<DIV id=divRplyFwdMsg dir=ltr><FONT style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt" color=#000000
face="Calibri, sans-serif"><B>De :</B> Fis <A class=moz-txt-link-rfc2396E
href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es">mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es</A>
de la part de Pedro C. Marijuan <A class=moz-txt-link-rfc2396E
href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es">mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</A><BR><B>Envoyé
:</B> vendredi 18 septembre 2020 20:01<BR><B>À :</B> 'fis' <A
class=moz-txt-link-rfc2396E
href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es">mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es</A><BR><B>Objet
:</B> Re: [Fis] Fwd: The 10 Principles</FONT>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>Dear All,<BR>Thanks to Jose Javier for his comments. Regarding the loop
you mention about distinction, you are right, but this is a very
characteristic of life (see that Maturana and Varela already said something
pretty similar in their Tree of Knowledge). In the other biological principles
that follow (below) I try to clarify that notion in several directions,
particularly concerning signaling systems, a concept which was completely
ignored until well in the 1990s. Your second comment may be partially
responded looking at those further principles dealing with the symbolic
communication via language and the social narratives, not far from what you
have pointed. Thus I include the whole principles herein.<BR>
<P class=x_MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify; LINE-HEIGHT: 14pt"><SPAN
lang=EN-US style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">1. Information is distinction on an
<I>adjacent </I>difference. <SPAN style="COLOR: red"></SPAN></SPAN></P>
<P class=x_MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify; LINE-HEIGHT: 14pt"><SPAN
lang=EN-US style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">2. Information processes consist in
organized action upon differences collected onto structures, patterns,
sequences, messages, or flows.</SPAN></P>
<P class=x_MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify; LINE-HEIGHT: 14pt"><SPAN
lang=EN-US style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">3. Information flows are essential
organizers of life's self-production process –the life cycle– anticipating,
shaping, and mixing up with the accompanying energy flows.</SPAN></P>
<P class=x_MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify; LINE-HEIGHT: 14pt"><SPAN
lang=EN-US style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">4. Proto-phenomena of meaning, knowledge,
and cognition (& intelligence) emerge via signaling systems of living
cells, fully developed in the action/perception cycle of central nervous
systems.</SPAN></P>
<P class=x_MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify; LINE-HEIGHT: 14pt"><SPAN
lang=EN-US style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">5. Information/communication exchanges
among adaptive life-cycles underlie the complexity of biological organization
at all scales.</SPAN></P>
<P class=x_MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify; LINE-HEIGHT: 14pt"><SPAN
lang=EN-US style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">6. It is symbolic language what conveys the
essential communication exchanges of individuals —and constitutes the core of
human "social nature."</SPAN></P>
<P class=x_MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify; LINE-HEIGHT: 14pt"><SPAN
lang=EN-US style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">7. Human information can be transformed
into efficient knowledge by following the "knowledge instinct", further
enhanced and delimited by collectively applying rigorous
methodologies.</SPAN></P>
<P class=x_MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify; LINE-HEIGHT: 14pt"><SPAN
lang=EN-US style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">8. Human cognitive limitations are
partially overcome via "knowledge ecologies", where knowledge circulates and
recombines socially in a continuous actualization that involves "creative
destruction" of theories, practices, and disciplines.</SPAN></P>
<P class=x_MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify; LINE-HEIGHT: 14pt"><SPAN
lang=EN-US style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">9. Narratives become encapsulated forms of
“natural intelligence”, tailored to capture collective attention and memory,
and essential for the cohesion of social, political, and economic
structures.</SPAN></P>
<P class=x_MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify; LINE-HEIGHT: 14pt"><SPAN
lang=EN-US style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">10. Information science proposes a new,
radical vision on how information and knowledge surround individual lives,
with profound consequences for scientific-philosophical practice and for
social governance.</SPAN></P><BR>
<P>Briefly referring to the other discussion track (Christophe), I quite agree
with situating the origins of (genuine) meaning with living beings, but have
some trouble with "constraints" when generally applied to biological
cognition. I think they may be more useful in other fields (originated in
kinematics, they become more and more volatile as used in Dynamic Systems
Theory, and similarly weakened when going from AI to biological cognition).
For instance, given 3,000 genes in Ecoli, organized in mixed clusters of
fiendish complexity, how do you establish meaningful constraints? Or can even
attribute separate "functions"? You may see in DOI:<A
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10.1016/j.pbiomolbio.2015.07.002</A><SPAN
class="x_nova-e-link x_nova-e-link--color-inherit
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</SPAN><SPAN
class="x_nova-e-link
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very dimensions of this ontology problem.</SPAN><A
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originalsrc="https://www.researchgate.net/deref/http%3A%2F%2Fdx.doi.org%2F10.1016%2Fj.pbiomolbio.2015.07.002?_sg%5B0%5D=nH-ziIzFNlPKAqMszwKA9aJSdUF_He_Rfcal3jUKXaF_lvDrbTWXcTEDtf5uNRaHZMzJ0MFczgM3J-aub54-p6oiQA.Vi1baoaYqIl4vlby-pQVd58ob8urom6m0dhZo1yJ26_NjwihWirad9bxSivcVUymzy-vS1FcL9dD4ZQ7UDtz_w"><BR></A></P>
<P>Regarding Marcus' comment on life as imprecisely defined (and whether
viruses or Gaia are 'alive'), the fundamental issue in natural sciences is
"explaining" rather than defining. And fortunately the advancement in our
explanations of life in last decades has been fantastic. Life can now be
characterized in every basic aspect with amazing depth. One cannot give a
precise definition of life, but one can provide a list of essential
characteristics, and at the center are the informational ones. Empirically,
the point is that information appears to be so ingrained in the molecular
organization of life that scores of new bio-disciplines have been recently
launched around it: bioinformatics, bioinformation, biocomputation, all the
"omic" fields, signaling science, etc. Biosemiotics could be included too, but
Hélas, most biosemioticians continue to "read" the DNA meaning via the genetic
code, rather than exploring the "signals" abduced from the environment and
"distinctionally worked out and transcribed in genes--from which ultimately
"meaning" emerges. About viruses concretely, they have been essential in the
origins of eukaryotic complexity and in the dynamic balance of marine and
terrestrial ecosystems... irrespective on how we consider their degree of
"aliveness". And finally "non comment" about some (baiting?) expressions in
your previous reply. <BR></P>
<P>I see right now the careful "review" by Loet: better for a next
occasion!<BR></P>
<P>Best--Pedro</P>
<P>PS. The Three Messages per Week are counted following the international
business week (from Monday to Sunday included).<BR></P><PRE class=x_moz-signature cols="72">--
-------------------------------------------------
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
<A class=x_moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" moz-do-not-send="true">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</A>
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Pedro C. Marijuán
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