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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Dear List,</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Responding to Christophe, I was aware
of the works of those research groups (some of my own country).
Well, philosophically and theoretically it may be an interesting
approach, but I fail to see a clear connection with the
biomolecular themes that center my own research--not a single word
on signaling systems, nor on the life cycle, nor on the
information flow. I personally think cognition and meaning can
also be approached differently, with a new "informational"
interpretation closer to signaling science and systems biology. So
to speak, those views are from the "top down", while my own
preference is the "bottom up" accompanied by the exploration of a
simpler, down to earth, conceptual apparatus. Actually, evolution
has proceeded via "bricolage" (as François Jaconb put) and the
innumerable interactions among living systems conducing to the
evolutionary complexity-growth lack any top down design. The
proposed constraint "to be alive" is but the very essence of life
(together with reproduction), it means the "conatus principle" of
Spinoza... So I respect those views but I do not share them.</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">About the other question, I see no
objection to utilizing the constraint satisfaction in top-down
designed artificial systems or agents. Then, my impression is that
you can compare with the same tool both the artificial and the
biological--but it is by using a "sanitized" top down version of
the latter. Rather I voluntarily opted for "natural intelligence"
in the 10 principles (the 9th one). As you well know, cognitive
science and AI itself have had a serious conceptual trouble by
following "the mind as a computer" metaphor, even potentially to
be run in "any kind of hardware", and pretty soon downloaded in
supercomputers (matrix style). <span class="gL9Hy">Finally it is
the substratum of </span><span class="gL9Hy">tecno-utopism
doctrines such as </span><span class="gL9Hy">"transhumanism"
and Kurt Wenzel "great singularity" ... Evidently you are not
arguing in that direction, but I really see the need to take a
separated stance. <br>
</span></div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><span class="gL9Hy"><br>
</span></div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><span class="gL9Hy">Responding to
Krassimir, I think my own position is very clear: information is
contemplated from a biological perspective, with its
(meaning&cognition) correlations associated to the
advancement of a life cycle. But I do not deny a possible
convergence with quantum information science new approaches. As
Joseph and Karl have noted from very different angles, there are
ways to explore further connotations of "adjacency", beyond the
direct bio implications of molecular-recognition. </span>(By
the way, there was a great fis discussion session on "<strong><a
href="http://fis-mail.sciforum.net/1069.html" target="_blank">Molecular
Recognition and the Fundamental Laws of Information</a></strong>"
by Shu-Kun Lin. July 14, 2003). <span class="gL9Hy">I often cite
a quotation from Michel Conrad: </span><span class="gL9Hy"></span><i
style="mso-bidi-font-style:
normal"><span style="font-family:"Times New
Roman","serif";
mso-ansi-language:EN-US" lang="EN-US"> "when we look at a
biological system, we are
looking at the face of the underlying physics of the
universe." </span></i>About the loop you mention in the
definition of information proposed in Principle 1, there is a very
clear starting point: the origins of life. <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Best greetings</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">--Pedro<br>
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><span class="gL9Hy"><br>
</span></div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><span class="gL9Hy"><br>
</span></div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"> El 25/09/2020 a las 13:46, Christophe
Menant escribió:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:PR1PR02MB53385D180F9B4F4065C480088C360@PR1PR02MB5338.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com">
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charset=windows-1252">
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<div style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif;
font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
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0cm;padding:0cm;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;
mso-fareast-language:FR;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US">Dear
Pedro, <br>
It is true that using constraints relative to 3000 genes would
bring in a level of complexity
<span style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>difficult to manage.
But the usage of the Meaning Genartaor System is with higher
level entities where the constraints are of a generic type,
like “Stay alive” and “Look for happiness”.
<span style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>By the way, I’m not
alone on that perspective. See
<a
href="https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-030-01198-7_6#aboutcontent"
moz-do-not-send="true">
https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-030-01198-7_6#aboutcontent</a><span
style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>where different type of
“control constraints” are introduced at basic life level,
associated to “meaningful interpretation” and “significances”.
Also, the<span style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>concept of
constraint satisfaction as an entry point to cognition looks
as accepted by the community (“a system is cognitive if and
only if sensory inputs serve to trigger actions in a specific
way, so as to satisfy a viability constraint” [Bourgine,
Stewart 2004]). <span style="mso-spacerun:yes">
</span>So I don’t see very well why there is a reluctance
to use a system approach on meaning generation for constraint
satisfaction. What would be your position on that point?<br>
An advantage of the system approach is to allow the modeling
of meaning generation in artificial agents with derived
constraints. Meaning generation in living entities and in AAs
can then be compared with the same tool. This highlights some
concerns relative to artificial life and artificial
intelligence, with ethical components (<a
href="https://philpapers.org/archive/MENTTC-2.pdf"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://philpapers.org/archive/MENTTC-2.pdf</a>
).
<br>
On that subject I do not see very well how the 10 principles
are linked to artificial cognition, which is, I feel, an
important item for principles of information in our world
where artificial agents participate more and more to all
components of our lives. Could you tell us more on that? <br>
All the best <br>
Christophe<br>
</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif;
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New
Roman";mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
FR;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US">Bourgine, P. Stewart,
J. (2004) ‘Autopoiesis and cognition’ Artificial life, Summer
2004, Vol. 10, No. 3, MIT Press Journals. <a
href="http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/abs/10.1162/1064546041255557#.VJLBnCuG-UI"
moz-do-not-send="true">
http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/abs/10.1162/1064546041255557#.VJLBnCuG-UI</a></span><br>
</div>
<div>
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;
font-size:12pt; color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<br>
</div>
<hr tabindex="-1" style="display:inline-block; width:98%">
<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font style="font-size:11pt"
face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000"><b>De :</b> Fis
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es"><fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es></a> de la part de Pedro C.
Marijuan <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es"><pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es></a><br>
<b>Envoyé :</b> vendredi 18 septembre 2020 20:01<br>
<b>À :</b> 'fis' <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es"><fis@listas.unizar.es></a><br>
<b>Objet :</b> Re: [Fis] Fwd: The 10 Principles</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>Dear All,<br>
Thanks to Jose Javier for his comments. Regarding the loop you
mention about distinction, you are right, but this is a very
characteristic of life (see that Maturana and Varela already
said something pretty similar in their Tree of Knowledge). In
the other biological principles that follow (below) I try to
clarify that notion in several directions, particularly
concerning signaling systems, a concept which was completely
ignored until well in the 1990s. Your second comment may be
partially responded looking at those further principles
dealing with the symbolic communication via language and the
social narratives, not far from what you have pointed. Thus I
include the whole principles herein.<br>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0cm;
margin-bottom:.0001pt; text-align:justify;
line-height:14.0pt">
<span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">1. Information is
distinction on an <i style="">
adjacent </i>difference. <span style="color:red"></span></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0cm;
margin-bottom:.0001pt; text-align:justify;
line-height:14.0pt">
<span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">2. Information
processes consist in organized action upon differences
collected onto structures, patterns, sequences, messages,
or flows.</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0cm;
margin-bottom:.0001pt; text-align:justify;
line-height:14.0pt">
<span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">3. Information
flows are essential organizers of life's self-production
process –the life cycle– anticipating, shaping, and mixing
up with the accompanying energy flows.</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0cm;
margin-bottom:.0001pt; text-align:justify;
line-height:14.0pt">
<span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">4. Proto-phenomena
of meaning, knowledge, and cognition (& intelligence)
emerge via signaling systems of living cells, fully
developed in the action/perception cycle of central
nervous systems.</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0cm;
margin-bottom:.0001pt; text-align:justify;
line-height:14.0pt">
<span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">5.
Information/communication exchanges among adaptive
life-cycles underlie the complexity of biological
organization at all scales.</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0cm;
margin-bottom:.0001pt; text-align:justify;
line-height:14.0pt">
<span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">6. It is symbolic
language what conveys the essential communication
exchanges of individuals —and constitutes the core of
human "social nature."</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0cm;
margin-bottom:.0001pt; text-align:justify;
line-height:14.0pt">
<span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">7. Human
information can be transformed into efficient knowledge by
following the "knowledge instinct", further enhanced and
delimited by collectively applying rigorous methodologies.</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0cm;
margin-bottom:.0001pt; text-align:justify;
line-height:14.0pt">
<span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">8. Human cognitive
limitations are partially overcome via "knowledge
ecologies", where knowledge circulates and recombines
socially in a continuous actualization that involves
"creative destruction" of theories, practices, and
disciplines.</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0cm;
margin-bottom:.0001pt; text-align:justify;
line-height:14.0pt">
<span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">9. Narratives
become encapsulated forms of “natural intelligence”,
tailored to capture collective attention and memory, and
essential for the cohesion of social, political, and
economic structures.</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0cm;
margin-bottom:.0001pt; text-align:justify;
line-height:14.0pt">
<span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">10. Information
science proposes a new, radical vision on how information
and knowledge surround individual lives, with profound
consequences for scientific-philosophical practice and for
social governance.</span></p>
<br>
<p>Briefly referring to the other discussion track
(Christophe), I quite agree with situating the origins of
(genuine) meaning with living beings, but have some trouble
with "constraints" when generally applied to biological
cognition. I think they may be more useful in other fields
(originated in kinematics, they become more and more
volatile as used in Dynamic Systems Theory, and similarly
weakened when going from AI to biological cognition). For
instance, given 3,000 genes in Ecoli, organized in mixed
clusters of fiendish complexity, how do you establish
meaningful constraints? Or can even attribute separate
"functions"? You may see in DOI:<a class="x_nova-e-link
x_nova-e-link--color-inherit
x_nova-e-link--theme-decorated"
href="https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fderef%2Fhttp%253A%252F%252Fdx.doi.org%252F10.1016%252Fj.pbiomolbio.2015.07.002%3F_sg%255B0%255D%3DnH-ziIzFNlPKAqMszwKA9aJSdUF_He_Rfcal3jUKXaF_lvDrbTWXcTEDtf5uNRaHZMzJ0MFczgM3J-aub54-p6oiQA.Vi1baoaYqIl4vlby-pQVd58ob8urom6m0dhZo1yJ26_NjwihWirad9bxSivcVUymzy-vS1FcL9dD4ZQ7UDtz_w&data=02%7C01%7C%7C13a6b1012e6746c2a97208d85bfd00a1%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637360489476081481&sdata=Gs6M4SxmClw83ShkAl9Vf7UIYyppHAAUxprvHFtZDRY%3D&reserved=0"
originalsrc="https://www.researchgate.net/deref/http%3A%2F%2Fdx.doi.org%2F10.1016%2Fj.pbiomolbio.2015.07.002?_sg%5B0%5D=nH-ziIzFNlPKAqMszwKA9aJSdUF_He_Rfcal3jUKXaF_lvDrbTWXcTEDtf5uNRaHZMzJ0MFczgM3J-aub54-p6oiQA.Vi1baoaYqIl4vlby-pQVd58ob8urom6m0dhZo1yJ26_NjwihWirad9bxSivcVUymzy-vS1FcL9dD4ZQ7UDtz_w"
shash="WqOjgfm+ae3S6+s6MmElql6mEKbcKwsp0SlcgBSYbczW6Wf0GqbzPVYWr1knZTXk3Zr4m/v+YvFR0mqgP+HRA16l5TrUc4K218QhpTlIVi0ehXO0+QNA5+Q/2MIT8jsCquXDeppUy5/FoI8AHquPJEFwPsWL2idaRB8Wxf+OzGs="
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class="x_nova-e-link x_nova-e-link--color-inherit
x_nova-e-link--theme-decorated">
</span><span class="x_nova-e-link
x_nova-e-link--color-inherit
x_nova-e-link--theme-decorated">the very dimensions of
this ontology problem.</span><a class="x_nova-e-link
x_nova-e-link--color-inherit
x_nova-e-link--theme-decorated"
href="https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fderef%2Fhttp%253A%252F%252Fdx.doi.org%252F10.1016%252Fj.pbiomolbio.2015.07.002%3F_sg%255B0%255D%3DnH-ziIzFNlPKAqMszwKA9aJSdUF_He_Rfcal3jUKXaF_lvDrbTWXcTEDtf5uNRaHZMzJ0MFczgM3J-aub54-p6oiQA.Vi1baoaYqIl4vlby-pQVd58ob8urom6m0dhZo1yJ26_NjwihWirad9bxSivcVUymzy-vS1FcL9dD4ZQ7UDtz_w&data=02%7C01%7C%7C13a6b1012e6746c2a97208d85bfd00a1%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637360489476091476&sdata=sVOZBlgJExzw%2F4z0j2flYw5BaV%2FXYR7jFcpIMyFnP3g%3D&reserved=0"
originalsrc="https://www.researchgate.net/deref/http%3A%2F%2Fdx.doi.org%2F10.1016%2Fj.pbiomolbio.2015.07.002?_sg%5B0%5D=nH-ziIzFNlPKAqMszwKA9aJSdUF_He_Rfcal3jUKXaF_lvDrbTWXcTEDtf5uNRaHZMzJ0MFczgM3J-aub54-p6oiQA.Vi1baoaYqIl4vlby-pQVd58ob8urom6m0dhZo1yJ26_NjwihWirad9bxSivcVUymzy-vS1FcL9dD4ZQ7UDtz_w"
shash="QPZyuhmYFyGe7PJ/GOuN6qYb4MznR6O7O3q8JjJTlrkx3Pz5ghM9DU0KvZ3EipbclBqE9Sq3Ev5OfJJr075nxuJgu+XMBhwnRSONJKKAtECu2cy+SqvweqfEJNAgk0zQK9AX25XN+Ycu9g/WexsFCrGEpwNv6qj11RrSpw2dhz8="
moz-do-not-send="true"><br>
</a></p>
<p>Regarding Marcus' comment on life as imprecisely defined
(and whether viruses or Gaia are 'alive'), the fundamental
issue in natural sciences is "explaining" rather than
defining. And fortunately the advancement in our
explanations of life in last decades has been fantastic.
Life can now be characterized in every basic aspect with
amazing depth. One cannot give a precise definition of life,
but one can provide a list of essential characteristics, and
at the center are the informational ones. Empirically, the
point is that information appears to be so ingrained in the
molecular organization of life that scores of new
bio-disciplines have been recently launched around it:
bioinformatics, bioinformation, biocomputation, all the
"omic" fields, signaling science, etc. Biosemiotics could be
included too, but Hélas, most biosemioticians continue to
"read" the DNA meaning via the genetic code, rather than
exploring the "signals" abduced from the environment and
"distinctionally worked out and transcribed in genes--from
which ultimately "meaning" emerges. About viruses
concretely, they have been essential in the origins of
eukaryotic complexity and in the dynamic balance of marine
and terrestrial ecosystems... irrespective on how we
consider their degree of "aliveness". And finally "non
comment" about some (baiting?) expressions in your previous
reply. <br>
</p>
<p>I see right now the careful "review" by Loet: better for a
next occasion!<br>
</p>
<p>Best--Pedro</p>
<p>PS. The Three Messages per Week are counted following the
international business week (from Monday to Sunday
included).<br>
</p>
<pre class="x_moz-signature" cols="72">--
-------------------------------------------------
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
<a class="x_moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" moz-do-not-send="true">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
-------------------------------------------------
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>
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