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mso-fareast-language:FR;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA">Dear
Pedro, <br>
It is true that using constraints relative to 3000 genes would bring in a level of complexity
<span style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>difficult to manage. But the usage of the Meaning Genartaor System is with higher level entities where the constraints are of a generic type, like “Stay alive” and “Look for happiness”.
<span style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>By the way, I’m not alone on that perspective. See
<a href="https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-030-01198-7_6#aboutcontent">
https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-030-01198-7_6#aboutcontent</a><span style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>where different type of “control constraints” are introduced at basic life level, associated to “meaningful interpretation” and “significances”.
Also, the<span style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>concept of constraint satisfaction as an entry point to cognition looks as accepted by the community (“a system is cognitive if and only if sensory inputs serve to trigger actions in a specific way, so as to
satisfy a viability constraint” [Bourgine, Stewart 2004]). <span style="mso-spacerun:yes">
</span>So I don’t see very well why there is a reluctance to use a system approach on meaning generation for constraint satisfaction. What would be your position on that point?<br>
An advantage of the system approach is to allow the modeling of meaning generation in artificial agents with derived constraints. Meaning generation in living entities and in AAs can then be compared with the same tool. This highlights some concerns relative
to artificial life and artificial intelligence, with ethical components (<a href="https://philpapers.org/archive/MENTTC-2.pdf">https://philpapers.org/archive/MENTTC-2.pdf</a> ).
<br>
On that subject I do not see very well how the 10 principles are linked to artificial cognition, which is, I feel, an important item for principles of information in our world where artificial agents participate more and more to all components of our lives.
Could you tell us more on that? <br>
All the best <br>
Christophe<br>
</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
FR;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA">Bourgine, P. Stewart, J. (2004) ‘Autopoiesis and cognition’
Artificial life, Summer 2004, Vol. 10, No. 3, MIT Press Journals. <a href="http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/abs/10.1162/1064546041255557#.VJLBnCuG-UI">
http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/abs/10.1162/1064546041255557#.VJLBnCuG-UI</a></span><br>
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<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000" style="font-size:11pt"><b>De :</b> Fis <fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es> de la part de Pedro C. Marijuan <pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es><br>
<b>Envoyé :</b> vendredi 18 septembre 2020 20:01<br>
<b>À :</b> 'fis' <fis@listas.unizar.es><br>
<b>Objet :</b> Re: [Fis] Fwd: The 10 Principles</font>
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<div>Dear All,<br>
Thanks to Jose Javier for his comments. Regarding the loop you mention about distinction, you are right, but this is a very characteristic of life (see that Maturana and Varela already said something pretty similar in their Tree of Knowledge). In the other
biological principles that follow (below) I try to clarify that notion in several directions, particularly concerning signaling systems, a concept which was completely ignored until well in the 1990s. Your second comment may be partially responded looking
at those further principles dealing with the symbolic communication via language and the social narratives, not far from what you have pointed. Thus I include the whole principles herein.<br>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt; text-align:justify; line-height:14.0pt">
<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt">1. Information is distinction on an <i style="">
adjacent </i>difference. <span style="color:red"></span></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt; text-align:justify; line-height:14.0pt">
<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt">2. Information processes consist in organized action upon differences collected onto structures, patterns, sequences, messages, or flows.</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt; text-align:justify; line-height:14.0pt">
<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt">3. Information flows are essential organizers of life's self-production process –the life cycle– anticipating, shaping, and mixing up with the accompanying energy flows.</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt; text-align:justify; line-height:14.0pt">
<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt">4. Proto-phenomena of meaning, knowledge, and cognition (& intelligence) emerge via signaling systems of living cells, fully developed in the action/perception cycle of central nervous systems.</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt; text-align:justify; line-height:14.0pt">
<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt">5. Information/communication exchanges among adaptive life-cycles underlie the complexity of biological organization at all scales.</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt; text-align:justify; line-height:14.0pt">
<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt">6. It is symbolic language what conveys the essential communication exchanges of individuals —and constitutes the core of human "social nature."</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt; text-align:justify; line-height:14.0pt">
<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt">7. Human information can be transformed into efficient knowledge by following the "knowledge instinct", further enhanced and delimited by collectively applying rigorous methodologies.</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt; text-align:justify; line-height:14.0pt">
<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt">8. Human cognitive limitations are partially overcome via "knowledge ecologies", where knowledge circulates and recombines socially in a continuous actualization that involves "creative destruction" of theories, practices,
and disciplines.</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt; text-align:justify; line-height:14.0pt">
<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt">9. Narratives become encapsulated forms of “natural intelligence”, tailored to capture collective attention and memory, and essential for the cohesion of social, political, and economic structures.</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt; text-align:justify; line-height:14.0pt">
<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt">10. Information science proposes a new, radical vision on how information and knowledge surround individual lives, with profound consequences for scientific-philosophical practice and for social governance.</span></p>
<br>
<p>Briefly referring to the other discussion track (Christophe), I quite agree with situating the origins of (genuine) meaning with living beings, but have some trouble with "constraints" when generally applied to biological cognition. I think they may be more
useful in other fields (originated in kinematics, they become more and more volatile as used in Dynamic Systems Theory, and similarly weakened when going from AI to biological cognition). For instance, given 3,000 genes in Ecoli, organized in mixed clusters
of fiendish complexity, how do you establish meaningful constraints? Or can even attribute separate "functions"? You may see in DOI:<a class="x_nova-e-link x_nova-e-link--color-inherit x_nova-e-link--theme-decorated" href="https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fderef%2Fhttp%253A%252F%252Fdx.doi.org%252F10.1016%252Fj.pbiomolbio.2015.07.002%3F_sg%255B0%255D%3DnH-ziIzFNlPKAqMszwKA9aJSdUF_He_Rfcal3jUKXaF_lvDrbTWXcTEDtf5uNRaHZMzJ0MFczgM3J-aub54-p6oiQA.Vi1baoaYqIl4vlby-pQVd58ob8urom6m0dhZo1yJ26_NjwihWirad9bxSivcVUymzy-vS1FcL9dD4ZQ7UDtz_w&data=02%7C01%7C%7C13a6b1012e6746c2a97208d85bfd00a1%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637360489476081481&sdata=Gs6M4SxmClw83ShkAl9Vf7UIYyppHAAUxprvHFtZDRY%3D&reserved=0" originalsrc="https://www.researchgate.net/deref/http%3A%2F%2Fdx.doi.org%2F10.1016%2Fj.pbiomolbio.2015.07.002?_sg%5B0%5D=nH-ziIzFNlPKAqMszwKA9aJSdUF_He_Rfcal3jUKXaF_lvDrbTWXcTEDtf5uNRaHZMzJ0MFczgM3J-aub54-p6oiQA.Vi1baoaYqIl4vlby-pQVd58ob8urom6m0dhZo1yJ26_NjwihWirad9bxSivcVUymzy-vS1FcL9dD4ZQ7UDtz_w" shash="WqOjgfm+ae3S6+s6MmElql6mEKbcKwsp0SlcgBSYbczW6Wf0GqbzPVYWr1knZTXk3Zr4m/v+YvFR0mqgP+HRA16l5TrUc4K218QhpTlIVi0ehXO0+QNA5+Q/2MIT8jsCquXDeppUy5/FoI8AHquPJEFwPsWL2idaRB8Wxf+OzGs=">
10.1016/j.pbiomolbio.2015.07.002</a><span class="x_nova-e-link x_nova-e-link--color-inherit x_nova-e-link--theme-decorated">
</span><span class="x_nova-e-link x_nova-e-link--color-inherit x_nova-e-link--theme-decorated">the very dimensions of this ontology problem.</span><a class="x_nova-e-link x_nova-e-link--color-inherit x_nova-e-link--theme-decorated" href="https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fderef%2Fhttp%253A%252F%252Fdx.doi.org%252F10.1016%252Fj.pbiomolbio.2015.07.002%3F_sg%255B0%255D%3DnH-ziIzFNlPKAqMszwKA9aJSdUF_He_Rfcal3jUKXaF_lvDrbTWXcTEDtf5uNRaHZMzJ0MFczgM3J-aub54-p6oiQA.Vi1baoaYqIl4vlby-pQVd58ob8urom6m0dhZo1yJ26_NjwihWirad9bxSivcVUymzy-vS1FcL9dD4ZQ7UDtz_w&data=02%7C01%7C%7C13a6b1012e6746c2a97208d85bfd00a1%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637360489476091476&sdata=sVOZBlgJExzw%2F4z0j2flYw5BaV%2FXYR7jFcpIMyFnP3g%3D&reserved=0" originalsrc="https://www.researchgate.net/deref/http%3A%2F%2Fdx.doi.org%2F10.1016%2Fj.pbiomolbio.2015.07.002?_sg%5B0%5D=nH-ziIzFNlPKAqMszwKA9aJSdUF_He_Rfcal3jUKXaF_lvDrbTWXcTEDtf5uNRaHZMzJ0MFczgM3J-aub54-p6oiQA.Vi1baoaYqIl4vlby-pQVd58ob8urom6m0dhZo1yJ26_NjwihWirad9bxSivcVUymzy-vS1FcL9dD4ZQ7UDtz_w" shash="QPZyuhmYFyGe7PJ/GOuN6qYb4MznR6O7O3q8JjJTlrkx3Pz5ghM9DU0KvZ3EipbclBqE9Sq3Ev5OfJJr075nxuJgu+XMBhwnRSONJKKAtECu2cy+SqvweqfEJNAgk0zQK9AX25XN+Ycu9g/WexsFCrGEpwNv6qj11RrSpw2dhz8="><br>
</a></p>
<p>Regarding Marcus' comment on life as imprecisely defined (and whether viruses or Gaia are 'alive'), the fundamental issue in natural sciences is "explaining" rather than defining. And fortunately the advancement in our explanations of life in last decades
has been fantastic. Life can now be characterized in every basic aspect with amazing depth. One cannot give a precise definition of life, but one can provide a list of essential characteristics, and at the center are the informational ones. Empirically, the
point is that information appears to be so ingrained in the molecular organization of life that scores of new bio-disciplines have been recently launched around it: bioinformatics, bioinformation, biocomputation, all the "omic" fields, signaling science, etc.
Biosemiotics could be included too, but Hélas, most biosemioticians continue to "read" the DNA meaning via the genetic code, rather than exploring the "signals" abduced from the environment and "distinctionally worked out and transcribed in genes--from which
ultimately "meaning" emerges. About viruses concretely, they have been essential in the origins of eukaryotic complexity and in the dynamic balance of marine and terrestrial ecosystems... irrespective on how we consider their degree of "aliveness". And finally
"non comment" about some (baiting?) expressions in your previous reply. <br>
</p>
<p>I see right now the careful "review" by Loet: better for a next occasion!<br>
</p>
<p>Best--Pedro</p>
<p>PS. The Three Messages per Week are counted following the international business week (from Monday to Sunday included).<br>
</p>
<pre class="x_moz-signature" cols="72">--
-------------------------------------------------
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
<a class="x_moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>
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