<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
</head>
<body>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Marcus, your message falls far below
the courtesy standards we apply in the FIS list. The same
requirements you were making this 09/07 about Jaime Cardenas
expressions would apply to you now. Under
these circumstances, your messages will be put under the
"moderated" regime. They will pass if they are aligned with the
common discussion style. Indeed your own attempt to ‘teach’ us
about how knowledge works suffers from all the ills you criticize
in others. <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">--Pedro<br>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Lucida Sans Unicode"
color="navy"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans
Unicode";
color:navy" lang="EN-GB"> </span></font></p>
El 24/09/2020 a las 9:43, Marcus Abundis escribió:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CACJqm9xMaoCca1Ae7-9NUSUmr8DdnHuFUWCB5zbfHuuktGmuFQ@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature">
<div>I am reposting this as my original FIS post did not
list correctly in the thread . . . </div>
<div>====</div>
<div><span class="gmail-im">
<div>Krassimir,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I compliment you on your clear and concise framing
of a core issue (Mon Sep 21, 'a simple question'), but
I also see it falling on deaf ears. Thus, I wonder if
it is worthwhile to add another voice to what remains
an intractable issue (with many faces) in FIS. Still,
I wish to firmly support your posted note.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">This *should* be a
simple matter/question, but . . .</span></div>
<div>– I do not think you (and others) are actually
debating opposed concepts of 'information', but rather
that *you* actually speak of 'information' the others
(Joe in this case) is NOT, or at least, not in any
clear manner.</div>
</span>
<div><span class="gmail-im">
<div>Joe notes (Mon Sep 21)</div>
> In the real world, information is co-emergent
with the universe.<
<div>– You, Krassimir, point to innate informatic
levels in your short but precise analysis.</div>
</span>
<div>– Joe's 'the real world' is actually 'das Ding an
sich' (NOT information) which will only ever be
imperfectly perceived by any informational agent,
including 'a thing's' many simple-to-complex levels –
this key issue of 'agent interpretation' dates to Kant
over 200 years ago and is *now* noted in modern
science as 'the thing in itself'. </div>
<span class="gmail-im">
<div>How/why is this most basic and firmly accepted
position ignored/missed in FIS? </div>
<div>That someone or something 'attempts' to grasp
that 'thing' is an 'informatic level', unavoidably
abstract of 'the thing in itself'. And there can be
many levels, Korzybski points to myriad informatic
levels (of abstraction) being too often ignored
(again seen here in FIS). Even T. Deacon notes major
informatic levels in his innateness, referential,
and normalized views.</div>
<div>It only muddies the water when Joe goes on about
how the cosmos is not expanding? (cosmic background
radiation?) Not sure what this adds . . . but in any
respect it does nothing to further support Pedro's
#1 principle.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Pedro's #1 'principle', like you, I find wholly
unsatisfying. Pedro's Sun 19 July post, from before
the break, shows more circumspect humility
in accepting he is actually presenting
talking 'points' rather than offering 'principles'.
I certainly join his ambition to realize principles,
in place of talking points – but as I noted in that
same post, #1 does nothing to improve on positions
already offered by MacKay and Bateson. It would be
more 'intellectually honest' to see #1 as a talking
point, rather than principle – absent that honesty,
the whole thing begins to look like a vanity
project, instead of firm critical thinking.</div>
<div>His further notion of adjacency seems trite if
compared to Christophe's mention of 'constraints'
(but which themselves could stand further
clarification) or if compared to Deacon's levels of
dynamism. Also, Pedro's #1 is truly a 'same sac'
approach, which he earlier seems to dismiss as too
simplistic(?)<br>
</div>
</span></div>
<div>
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br>
</div>
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">There is an even
more-basic question of what is an acceptable standard
for analysis/thinking on this matter. – are we to
conduct our inquiry in *scientific* terms, with
progressively refining steps, or rely on simple
'positions' unquestioningly clutched? Namely we should
seek to:1) describe, and 2) explain, 3) cause, and 4)
effect, in a 5) serially coherent manner (relying on
prior science) . . . for evident worldly events.</div>
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">I do not see Pedro's note
as usefully descriptively (step 1), in a scientific
sense – it thus, I think, has no explanatory (step 2)
potential. Lastly, Joe claims Pedro's #1 is correctly
recursive in its framing, but such a claim ignores
Russell's Paradox where a set cannot include itself –
and later gave rise to 'type theory' (again LEVELS).
This lack of sense around informatic types/levels
seems to habitually plague FIS . . . </div>
</div>
<div class="gmail-yj6qo gmail-ajU" style="margin:2px 0px
0px">
<div id="gmail-:17x" class="gmail-ajR" tabindex="0"><img
class="gmail-ajT"
src="https://ssl.gstatic.com/ui/v1/icons/mail/images/cleardot.gif"
moz-do-not-send="true"></div>
</div>
<div class="gmail-adL">
<div class="gmail-adm">
<div class="gmail-im">
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br>
</div>
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">I could say more, but
this is probably already too much for some.</div>
<font color="#888888">
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br>
</div>
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">Marcus</div>
</font></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
Fis mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a>
----------
INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a>
Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://listas.unizar.es">http://listas.unizar.es</a>
----------
</pre>
</blockquote>
<p><br>
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
-------------------------------------------------
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/">http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/</a>
------------------------------------------------- </pre>
<div id="DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2"><br /> <table style="border-top: 1px solid #D3D4DE;">
<tr>
<td style="width: 55px; padding-top: 18px;"><a href="https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient" target="_blank"><img src="https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange-animated-no-repeat-v1.gif" alt="" width="46" height="29" style="width: 46px; height: 29px;" /></a></td>
<td style="width: 470px; padding-top: 17px; color: #41424e; font-size: 13px; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; line-height: 18px;">Libre de virus. <a href="https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient" target="_blank" style="color: #4453ea;">www.avast.com</a> </td>
</tr>
</table>
<a href="#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2" width="1" height="1"> </a></div></body>
</html>