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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Dear List,</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Responding to the last exchanges,
first, it is always a pleasure reading Karl's texts, irrespective
that one can agree, disagree or partially coincide with the
conceptual edifice he is elegantly describing.</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">About Joseph's below, thanks for
clarifying Krassimir's question--am glad you are upholding the 1st
Principle. But following your thought, my mention to the life
cycle as a complementary zeroth principle seems unnecessary, or
even counterproductive--what would you think?</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Regarding Stan's comment, on the basic
characteristics of life, apart of their general interest, I tend
to disagree with his " information must make a difference to the
promotion of any dissipative structure. (Here we arrive in
physics!)" Would you say the same when talking about the basic
processing structure of a computer digital info? Do you need
physics for the Turing Machine or for the von Neumann
architecture? I connect the disagreement with a relatively similar
statement from Bruno: "eventually Nature itself is a pattern
emerging from the relation between universal numbers; some playing
the role of environment for others." You take as (relatively?)
solved one the biggest physical enigmas.<br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">And to continue the disagreements,
Loet's: "Reducing society to a meta-biology reduces the social
sciences to a commentary. They can be sui generis. The application
of biological systems theory to society (sociobiology) to be
resisted. For example, we don't wish the strongest to be the
fittest. The rule of law cannot be reduced to biology." I think
you misunderstood my comment and are shooting at a straw-man.</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"> When I wrote "sharing a life-cycle
(& its experiential load--a culture for instance) as a
powerful level-playing field in social and biological
communication" can be excellently clarified by a recent movie of
Denis Villeneuve (2016) "ARRIVAL". An enormous spacial ship
arrives, the occupants of which are finally visualized as enormous
octopus within a gigantic tank. How could humans communicate with
them when everything about their respective forms of life (my
"life cycle & experiential load") is completely unknown for
each other??? The development of the movie is great from the
communication point of view... It is a problem not so distant from
the frequent uncommunication between human cultures and even
between practitioners of different scientific disciplines (ehem).
In any case, anyone reading the 10 info principles could hardly
raise the shibboleth of reductionism. These principles visit a
succession of the main information halls and just try to open a
few strategic doors between them. <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Putting it differently: the 10 info
principles would minimally describe the foundations of the bizarre
difference between our planet and the other known planets. The
inner workings of the incredible biosphere & sociosphere
herein, which seem to be grounded on multiple new kinds of
communicative relationships. Whether the common "physical stuff"
on which all existence depends is also involved in playing info
games appears beyond my personal expertise (but am not against
this kind of quest!). <br>
<div><br class="">
</div>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">All the best</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">--Pedro</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">El 21/09/2020 a las 17:48, Joseph
Brenner escribió:<br>
</div>
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<div class="Section1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Lucida Sans Unicode"
color="navy"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans
Unicode";
color:navy" lang="EN-GB">Dear Krassimir, Dear All,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Lucida Sans Unicode"
color="navy"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans
Unicode";
color:navy" lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Lucida Sans
Unicode" color="navy"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Lucida
Sans Unicode";
color:navy" lang="EN-GB">1. Perhaps somewhat
unexpectedly, I have concluded that this is a
very good question, to which I propose the following
tentative answer. In the
real world, information is co-emergent with the
universe. Today, no real
informational event, that is, no event, takes place
without reference to an
earlier state. For those who, like me, do not
believe that our current universe
is expanding from a singularity, the problem of the
apparent disparity in the size
of the universe at the end of an expansion cycle and
the start of a contraction
cycle is solved in the Cyclic Conformal Cosmology of
Penrose. Even if the simplistic
‘Big Bang’ model of the universe is retained, which,
I repeat, I
think it should not be, the start of Krassimir’s
series is not information
(0) but information (n), where n is an obviously
very large but transfinite,
not infinite, number.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Lucida Sans
Unicode" color="navy"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Lucida
Sans Unicode";
color:navy" lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Lucida Sans
Unicode" color="navy"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Lucida
Sans Unicode";
color:navy" lang="EN-GB">In other words, the concept
of an information (0) is, to all
intents and purposes, a completely idealized
construction. It has the value,
for the purposes of this discussion, of being a
further demonstration of the
failure of classical arguments, scientific or
philosophical, based on an
infinite logical regress to a limit, 0, 1, or
‘infinity’, as the
case may be.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Lucida Sans
Unicode" color="navy"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Lucida
Sans Unicode";
color:navy" lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Lucida Sans
Unicode" color="navy"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Lucida
Sans Unicode";
color:navy" lang="EN-GB">Therefore, we may retain
Pedro’s First Principle with the
understanding that the movement is always between n
and n+1, since n (0) is
inaccessible. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Lucida Sans
Unicode" color="navy"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Lucida
Sans Unicode";
color:navy" lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Lucida Sans
Unicode" color="navy"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Lucida
Sans Unicode";
color:navy" lang="EN-GB">2. The second point I would
like to raise relates to the
requirement, which I have accepted without thinking
about it that information
refers to a distinction on an <i><span
style="font-style:italic">adjacent </span></i>difference.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Lucida Sans
Unicode" color="navy"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Lucida
Sans Unicode";
color:navy" lang="EN-GB">Why adjacent? Any
difference of which I become conscious has become
‘adjacent’, otherwise I could not make a distinction
on it. In
other words, any relations I may have to
non-adjacent differences are purely
epistemological. Is this correct? Is there a direct
relation between
information (n) and information (n+2)? I conclude
there is not, and Pedro’s
Principle stands as written. QED.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Lucida Sans
Unicode" color="navy"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Lucida
Sans Unicode";
color:navy" lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Lucida Sans
Unicode" color="navy"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Lucida
Sans Unicode";
color:navy" lang="EN-GB">Thank you and best wishes,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Lucida Sans
Unicode" color="navy"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Lucida
Sans Unicode";
color:navy" lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Lucida Sans
Unicode" color="navy"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Lucida
Sans Unicode";
color:navy" lang="EN-GB">Joseph <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Lucida Sans
Unicode" color="navy"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Lucida
Sans Unicode";
color:navy" lang="EN-GB"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"
color="navy"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"
lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"
color="navy"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"
lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="4" face="Calibri"
color="black"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black"
lang="EN-GB"><br>
I still do not agree with the first principle.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="4" face="Calibri"
color="black"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black">Joseph
had written and
Pedro had confirmed that :<br>
<br>
</span></font><font size="2" face="Lucida Sans
Unicode" color="navy"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Lucida
Sans Unicode";color:navy">“information
(2) is produced in MAKING a distinction on an
adjacent difference = information
(1)</span></font><font size="4" face="Calibri"
color="black"><span style="font-size:
13.5pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black"><br>
<br>
In other words, information (n) is created from
information (n-1).<br>
<br>
This is simple series which we may write as follow:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="4" face="Calibri"
color="black"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black">information
(0)
–> information (1) –> ... –> information
(n-1)
–> information (n) –> ....</span></font><font
size="4" face="Calibri" color="black"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="4" face="Calibri"
color="black"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black">A
Simple Question:</span></font><font size="4"
face="Calibri" color="black"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="4" face="Calibri"
color="black"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="4" face="Calibri"
color="black"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black">Who
creates
information (0) ?</span></font><font size="4"
face="Calibri" color="black"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="4" face="Calibri"
color="black"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="4" face="Calibri"
color="black"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black">Friendly
greetings</span></font><font size="4" face="Calibri"
color="black"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="4" face="Calibri"
color="black"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black">Krassimir</span></font><font
size="4" face="Calibri" color="black"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="4" face="Calibri"
color="black"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="4" face="Calibri"
color="black"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="4" face="Calibri"
color="black"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="4" face="Calibri"
color="black"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="4" face="Calibri"
color="black"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Tahoma"
color="black"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div style="font-color:black">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:whitesmoke"><b><font
size="2" face="Tahoma" color="black"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black;
font-weight:bold">From:</span></font></b><font
size="2" face="Tahoma" color="black"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black">
<a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch"
title="joe.brenner@bluewin.ch"
moz-do-not-send="true">Joseph
Brenner</a> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:whitesmoke"><b><font
size="2" face="Tahoma" color="black"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black;
font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></font></b><font
size="2" face="Tahoma" color="black"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black">
Friday, September 18,
2020 11:19 PM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:whitesmoke"><b><font
size="2" face="Tahoma" color="black"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black;
font-weight:bold">To:</span></font></b><font
size="2" face="Tahoma" color="black"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black">
<a href="mailto:markov@foibg.com"
title="markov@foibg.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">'Krassimir Markov'</a>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:whitesmoke"><b><font
size="2" face="Tahoma" color="black"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black;
font-weight:bold">Cc:</span></font></b><font
size="2" face="Tahoma" color="black"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black">
<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es"
title="fis@listas.unizar.es"
moz-do-not-send="true">fis</a> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:whitesmoke"><b><font
size="2" face="Tahoma" color="black"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black;
font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></font></b><font
size="2" face="Tahoma" color="black"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black">
RE:
[Fis] Fwd: The 10 Principles. Information as
Process<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Calibri"
color="black"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Lucida Sans
Unicode" color="navy"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Lucida
Sans Unicode";
color:navy" lang="EN-GB">Dear Pedro, Dear Krassimir,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Lucida Sans
Unicode" color="navy"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Lucida
Sans Unicode";
color:navy" lang="EN-GB">For me, the problem is
clearly a result of using a common noun,
information, to describe a complex process rather
than a participle form
– informationing. Then, “information IS a
distinction” should
be replaced by “information (2) is produced in
MAKING a distinction on an
adjacent difference = information (1). Then, of
course the 1<sup>st</sup>
principle is recursive, but correctly so! <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Lucida Sans
Unicode" color="navy"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Lucida
Sans Unicode";
color:navy" lang="EN-GB">Best,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Lucida Sans
Unicode" color="navy"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Lucida
Sans Unicode";
color:navy" lang="EN-GB">Joseph<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"
color="black"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"> </span></font><font
size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy" lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:center"
align="center"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"
color="black"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;
color:black" lang="EN-US">
<hr tabindex="-1" width="100%" size="2"
align="center">
</span></font></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
-------------------------------------------------
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/">http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/</a>
------------------------------------------------- </pre>
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