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<DIV><FONT size=4>Dear Pedro and Joseph,<BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Thank you for the answers. <BR>They clear the
situation.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>We have principally opposite points of view.<BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Yours is that the information exists independently of live
creatures. <BR>“<FONT style="COLOR: #000080">In the real world, information is
co-emergent with the universe.” <FONT color=#000000><BR></FONT></FONT>This is
the modern understanding of God as Creator ( information (0) )! <BR></FONT><FONT
size=4></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>My point of view is the opposite – without the live creatures,
information does not exist. <BR>It exists only in the consciousness
(personal or social)!<BR>It is subjective reaction of the incoming (external
and/or internal) reflections (data).<BR> </FONT></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt tahoma">
<DIV><FONT size=4 face=Calibri>This way, we have different systems of
principles, as already I had shown.<BR><BR>Friendly greetings</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4 face=Calibri>Krassimir</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4 face=Calibri></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4 face=Calibri></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4 face=Calibri></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4 face=Calibri></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es
href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es">Pedro C. Marijuan</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, September 22, 2020 2:59 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=fis@listas.unizar.es
href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es">fis@listas.unizar.es</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Fis] a simple question. A simple (?)
answer.</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
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style='FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri"; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline'>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix>Dear List,</DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix> </DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix>Responding to the last exchanges, first, it is always
a pleasure reading Karl's texts, irrespective that one can agree, disagree or
partially coincide with the conceptual edifice he is elegantly describing.</DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix>About Joseph's below, thanks for clarifying
Krassimir's question--am glad you are upholding the 1st Principle. But following
your thought, my mention to the life cycle as a complementary zeroth principle
seems unnecessary, or even counterproductive--what would you think?</DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix> </DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix>Regarding Stan's comment, on the basic
characteristics of life, apart of their general interest, I tend to disagree
with his " information must make a difference to the promotion of any
dissipative structure. (Here we arrive in physics!)" Would you say the same when
talking about the basic processing structure of a computer digital info? Do you
need physics for the Turing Machine or for the von Neumann architecture? I
connect the disagreement with a relatively similar statement from Bruno:
"eventually Nature itself is a pattern emerging from the relation between
universal numbers; some playing the role of environment for others." You take as
(relatively?) solved one the biggest physical enigmas.<BR></DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix> </DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix>And to continue the disagreements, Loet's: "Reducing
society to a meta-biology reduces the social sciences to a commentary. They can
be sui generis. The application of biological systems theory to society
(sociobiology) to be resisted. For example, we don't wish the strongest to be
the fittest. The rule of law cannot be reduced to biology." I think you
misunderstood my comment and are shooting at a straw-man.</DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix>When I wrote "sharing a life-cycle (& its
experiential load--a culture for instance) as a powerful level-playing field in
social and biological communication" can be excellently clarified by a recent
movie of Denis Villeneuve (2016) "ARRIVAL". An enormous spacial ship
arrives, the occupants of which are finally visualized as enormous octopus
within a gigantic tank. How could humans communicate with them when everything
about their respective forms of life (my "life cycle & experiential
load") is completely unknown for each other??? The development of the
movie is great from the communication point of view... It is a problem not so
distant from the frequent uncommunication between human cultures and even
between practitioners of different scientific disciplines (ehem). In any
case, anyone reading the 10 info principles could hardly raise the shibboleth of
reductionism. These principles visit a succession of the main information
halls and just try to open a few strategic doors between
them. <BR></DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix> </DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix>Putting it differently: the 10 info principles would
minimally describe the foundations of the bizarre difference between our planet
and the other known planets. The inner workings of the incredible biosphere
& sociosphere herein, which seem to be grounded on multiple new kinds of
communicative relationships. Whether the common "physical stuff" on which all
existence depends is also involved in playing info games appears beyond my
personal expertise (but am not against this kind of quest!). <BR>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix>All the best</DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix>--Pedro</DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix> </DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix>El 21/09/2020 a las 17:48, Joseph Brenner
escribió:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite=mid:D21CB4C837FA42B7992EFCF2AC238670@LAPTOPR7Q1BSBB
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=navy size=3 face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><SPAN
lang=EN-GB
style='FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Lucida Sans
unicode"; COLOR: navy'>Dear
Krassimir, Dear All,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=navy size=3 face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><SPAN
lang=EN-GB
style='FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Lucida Sans
unicode"; COLOR: navy'><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=navy size=3
face="Lucida Sans
Unicode"><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style='FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Lucida
sans unicode"; COLOR: navy'>1.
Perhaps somewhat unexpectedly, I have concluded that this is a very good
question, to which I propose the following tentative answer. In the real
world, information is co-emergent with the universe. Today, no real
informational event, that is, no event, takes place without reference to an
earlier state. For those who, like me, do not believe that our current
universe is expanding from a singularity, the problem of the apparent
disparity in the size of the universe at the end of an expansion cycle and the
start of a contraction cycle is solved in the Cyclic Conformal Cosmology of
Penrose. Even if the simplistic ‘Big Bang’ model of the universe is retained,
which, I repeat, I think it should not be, the start of Krassimir’s series is
not information (0) but information (n), where n is an obviously very large
but transfinite, not infinite, number.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=navy size=3
face="Lucida Sans
Unicode"><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style='FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Lucida
sans unicode"; COLOR: navy'><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=navy size=3
face="Lucida Sans
Unicode"><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style='FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Lucida
sans unicode"; COLOR: navy'>In
other words, the concept of an information (0) is, to all intents and
purposes, a completely idealized construction. It has the value, for the
purposes of this discussion, of being a further demonstration of the failure
of classical arguments, scientific or philosophical, based on an infinite
logical regress to a limit, 0, 1, or ‘infinity’, as the case may
be.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=navy size=3
face="Lucida Sans
Unicode"><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style='FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Lucida
sans unicode"; COLOR: navy'><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=navy size=3
face="Lucida Sans
Unicode"><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style='FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Lucida
sans unicode"; COLOR: navy'>Therefore,
we may retain Pedro’s First Principle with the understanding that the movement
is always between n and n+1, since n (0) is inaccessible.
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=navy size=3
face="Lucida Sans
Unicode"><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style='FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Lucida
sans unicode"; COLOR: navy'><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=navy size=3
face="Lucida Sans
Unicode"><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style='FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Lucida
sans unicode"; COLOR: navy'>2.
The second point I would like to raise relates to the requirement, which I
have accepted without thinking about it that information refers to a
distinction on an <I><SPAN style="FONT-STYLE: italic">adjacent
</SPAN></I>difference.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=navy size=3
face="Lucida Sans
Unicode"><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style='FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Lucida
sans unicode"; COLOR: navy'>Why
adjacent? Any difference of which I become conscious has become ‘adjacent’,
otherwise I could not make a distinction on it. In other words, any relations
I may have to non-adjacent differences are purely epistemological. Is this
correct? Is there a direct relation between information (n) and information
(n+2)? I conclude there is not, and Pedro’s Principle stands as written.
QED.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=navy size=3
face="Lucida Sans
Unicode"><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style='FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Lucida
sans unicode"; COLOR: navy'><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=navy size=3
face="Lucida Sans
Unicode"><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style='FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Lucida
sans unicode"; COLOR: navy'>Thank
you and best wishes,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=navy size=3
face="Lucida Sans
Unicode"><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style='FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Lucida
sans unicode"; COLOR: navy'><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=navy size=3
face="Lucida Sans
Unicode"><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style='FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Lucida
sans unicode"; COLOR: navy'>Joseph
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=navy size=3
face="Lucida Sans
Unicode"><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style='FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Lucida
sans unicode"; COLOR: navy'> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=navy size=2 face=Arial><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial; COLOR: navy"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=navy size=2 face=Arial><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial; COLOR: navy"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=4 face=Calibri><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri; COLOR: black"><BR>I still do
not agree with the first principle.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=4 face=Calibri><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri; COLOR: black">Joseph had
written and Pedro had confirmed that :<BR><BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT color=navy
size=2 face="Lucida Sans
Unicode"><SPAN
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Lucida
sans unicode"; COLOR: navy'>“information
(2) is produced in MAKING a distinction on an adjacent difference =
information (1)</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black size=4 face=Calibri><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri; COLOR: black"><BR><BR>In other
words, information (n) is created from information (n-1).<BR><BR>This is
simple series which we may write as follow:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=4 face=Calibri><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri; COLOR: black">information (0)
–> information (1) –> ... –> information (n-1) –> information (n)
–> ....</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black size=4 face=Calibri><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri; COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=4 face=Calibri><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri; COLOR: black">A Simple
Question:</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black size=4 face=Calibri><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri; COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=4 face=Calibri><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri; COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=4 face=Calibri><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri; COLOR: black">Who creates
information (0) ?</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black size=4 face=Calibri><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri; COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=4 face=Calibri><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri; COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=4 face=Calibri><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri; COLOR: black">Friendly
greetings</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black size=4 face=Calibri><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri; COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=4 face=Calibri><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri; COLOR: black">Krassimir</SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=black size=4 face=Calibri><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri; COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=4 face=Calibri><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri; COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=4 face=Calibri><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri; COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=4 face=Calibri><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri; COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=4 face=Calibri><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri; COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=4 face=Calibri><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri; COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=2 face=Tahoma><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma; COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style="font-color: black">
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke"><B><FONT color=black size=2
face=Tahoma><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma; FONT-WEIGHT: bold; COLOR: black">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
color=black size=2 face=Tahoma><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma; COLOR: black"> <A
title=joe.brenner@bluewin.ch href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch"
moz-do-not-send="true">Joseph Brenner</A> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke"><B><FONT color=black size=2
face=Tahoma><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma; FONT-WEIGHT: bold; COLOR: black">Sent:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
color=black size=2 face=Tahoma><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma; COLOR: black"> Friday, September
18, 2020 11:19 PM<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke"><B><FONT color=black size=2
face=Tahoma><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma; FONT-WEIGHT: bold; COLOR: black">To:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
color=black size=2 face=Tahoma><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma; COLOR: black"> <A
title=markov@foibg.com href="mailto:markov@foibg.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">'Krassimir Markov'</A>
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke"><B><FONT color=black size=2
face=Tahoma><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma; FONT-WEIGHT: bold; COLOR: black">Cc:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
color=black size=2 face=Tahoma><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma; COLOR: black"> <A
title=fis@listas.unizar.es href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es"
moz-do-not-send="true">fis</A> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: whitesmoke"><B><FONT color=black size=2
face=Tahoma><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma; FONT-WEIGHT: bold; COLOR: black">Subject:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
color=black size=2 face=Tahoma><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma; COLOR: black"> RE: [Fis] Fwd: The
10 Principles. Information as
Process<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=3 face=Calibri><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri; COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=navy size=2
face="Lucida Sans
Unicode"><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Lucida
sans unicode"; COLOR: navy'>Dear
Pedro, Dear Krassimir,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=navy size=2
face="Lucida Sans
Unicode"><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Lucida
sans unicode"; COLOR: navy'>For
me, the problem is clearly a result of using a common noun, information, to
describe a complex process rather than a participle form – informationing.
Then, “information IS a distinction” should be replaced by “information (2) is
produced in MAKING a distinction on an adjacent difference = information (1).
Then, of course the 1<SUP>st</SUP> principle is recursive, but correctly so!
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=navy size=2
face="Lucida Sans
Unicode"><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Lucida
sans unicode"; COLOR: navy'>Best,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=navy size=2
face="Lucida Sans
Unicode"><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style='FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Lucida
sans unicode"; COLOR: navy'>Joseph<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT color=black size=3 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black"> </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=navy
size=2 face=Arial><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial; COLOR: navy"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT color=black
size=3 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black">
<HR tabIndex=-1 align=center SIZE=2 width="100%">
</SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><PRE class=moz-signature cols="72">--
-------------------------------------------------
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
<A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</A>
<A class=moz-txt-link-freetext href="http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/">http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/</A>
------------------------------------------------- </PRE>
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