<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">Hi Pedro,<div><br></div><div>From your 11 July post . . .</div><div><div>> The genuine properties of information appear with life: the capability to persist <</div><div>> and react and relate according to inner drives unseen in inanimate matter.<</div><div>– This "informational way of existence" (as you say), I typify as 'adaptive logic'; an equal concept that I hope we may agree on.</div><div><br></div><div>With that as background, in your 11 and 14 July posts there are some key points I wish to address:</div><div>– Your 11 July post shows your bias to LIFE (agency), which *in itself* is fine and I have no problem with. But I have also seen earlier notes from you elsewhere (and implied above) where you seem to insist LIFE's informatic expressions be held above all else – I paraphrase – 'LIFE is Primary in ALL informational respects!' Is this fair to say, does this indeed reflect your view? This view of yours seems clear to me from prior exchanges, but I do not want to put words in your mouth. Also, you are not alone in taking this view. It is important to be clear about this issue of Primacy, and your position on the matter . . . as it often seems to influence the nature of FIS exchanges (re Loet's 14 July note).</div><div><br></div><div>– If you see LIFE as Primary in all informational respects, I disagree with this (as you know). To say LIFE is Primary ignores Evolution by Natural Selection (EvNS) which ultimately defines what all LIFE looks like – what is extant, what Lives and what is Extinct/Dead. In turn, EvNS is guided by indifferent 'selection forces' (purifying, divisive, and directional) which are themselves ultimately 'inanimate' [unless you subscribe to super-naturalism?]. As such, the inanimate defines what the animate is: the INANIMATE is Primary in guiding what the ANIMATE *might* be, but the inverse is not true. LIFE does not direct atoms and elementary particles in how they might behave, or what they might *be*. Still, this does not *by any means* negate LIFE's vital informatics – it merely places LIFE in an adaptive role, that of adapting to inanimate (but still dynamic/chaotic) matter. This schism between what is Primary and what is Secondary, I think, must first be resolved if FIS is to ever advance on its presumed 'foundational' goal.</div><div><br></div><div>– To be clear when we say inanimate we mean 'lacking conscious will or power (survival intent) in manifest acts and deeds'. But inanimate does NOT mean lacking force or energy in the underlying dynamics of EvNS. It is more that simple atoms, etc. do not bother with adaptive survival, but LIFE is mostly concerned with survival . . . given its relatively 'higher-order' vulnerable complexity. </div><div><br></div><div>– Lastly, you alternatively speak of 'points' and 'principles' which are entirely different things (which I am sure you know). Still, I am unsure if the list you offer is meant to convey 'points' or 'principles'? Would you please clarify this. As 'points' it seems little new is added. I do not see how point 1 significantly improves Donald MacKay's “Information is a distinction that makes a difference” or Bateson's 'a difference that makes a difference' – could you offer some clarifying examples, or a bit more detail? The 'adjacent' role you name in point 1 is in scare quotes and unspecific. I do not address later points, as I presume they are shown in a step-wise manner, and I must agree the first point before focusing on later points.</div><div><br></div><div>Marcus</div><div></div><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 2:30 PM Pedro C. Marijuan <<a href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" target="_blank">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div>Dear List, <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks for the comments. I have tried
to be more inclusive in the new point 2. <br>
</div>
<div>Also, Point 1 has been slightly
modified reminding an old comment from Lars (that info always goes
"by contact")<br>
</div>
Other changes, in point 3 now, can be justified as follows: <br>
<div>The fact that biological
self-production either in bacteria or in organisms is accompanied
respectively by a "bacterial signaling system" or by a "central
nervous system" tells us that the way of life, the adaptation to
the niche, always needs the development of ad hoc informational
detectors. Otherwise the life cycle becomes "blind", truncated and
unable to advance towards completion. At the same time, inside
every cell, inside every organism, there is an internal
information flow related to its own self-production. For instance
in a living cell, the self-production may imply: expression,
copying, translation, genetic code, modification codes,
degradation... While the signaling flow may imply: signal
generation, emission, transmission channel, reception,
decoding/processing, meaning elaboration, response... Both
information flows, the external and the internal, become
intertwined, densely mixed, at all scales of biological
organization. Let us further emphasize point 1, for all these
information processes imply a physical contact, as they always
have to impinge on the system receptors or sensory surfaces. <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>So, points 1 to 5 could read as
follows:<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>1. Information as such: distinction
of an "adjacent" difference.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span lang="EN-US">2. Information processes: organized action upon
distinctions collected into structures, patterns, sequences,
messages, or flows.</span></div>
<div><span lang="EN-US"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span lang="EN-US"></span>3. Integrated information processes of
life: <span lang="EN-US">information flows, both from the external
signaling environment and from the internal productive
environment, are tightly integrated along the advancement of
the adaptive life cycle --they regularly anticipate, shape,
and mix up with the accompanying energy flows.</span>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<span lang="EN-US"></span><span lang="EN-US">4. Biological complexity: communication/information
exchanges among adaptive life-cycles underlie the complexity of
biological organization at all scales.</span></div>
<div><span lang="EN-US"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span lang="EN-US">5. Biological cognition: cognition, meaning and
knowledge can be identified within the integrated
signaling/productive </span><span lang="EN-US">molecular</span><span lang="EN-US"> mechanisms that adaptively transform the
cell-cycle trajectory as well as in the action/perception cycle
of central nervous systems. <br>
</span></div>
<div><span lang="EN-US"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span lang="EN-US">The other 5 points regarding human & social
aspects may be discussed later on. <br>
</span></div>
<div><span lang="EN-US"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span lang="EN-US">All the best</span></div>
<div><span lang="EN-US">--Pedro<br>
</span>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 2cm;text-align:justify;line-height:14pt"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<br>
</div>
<div>El 13/07/2020 a las 2:01, Koichiro
Matsuno escribió:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:游ゴシック;color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-US">On Monday, July 13, 2020 5:14 AM, Krassimir
Markov wrote: </span><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black" lang="EN-US">I am not sure that all colleagues agree that
information does not exist out of the LIFE sphere.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black" lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent:16.5pt"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:游ゴシック;color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-US">This observation should stand alone only when
“all colleagues” are the inhabitants outside the LIFE
sphere.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent:16.5pt"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:游ゴシック;color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent:16.5pt"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:游ゴシック;color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-US">Best regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent:16.5pt"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:游ゴシック;color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-US">Koichiro Matsuno</span><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black" lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black" lang="EN-US"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:游ゴシック;color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-US"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:游ゴシック;color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border-style:solid none none;border-top-width:1pt;border-top-color:rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0mm 0mm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" lang="EN-US"> Fis <a href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank"><fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es></a>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Krassimir Markov<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, July 13, 2020 5:14 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'fis' <a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank"><fis@listas.unizar.es></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fis] 10 Principles<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black" lang="EN-US">Dear Pedro and FIS Colleagues,</span><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black" lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black" lang="EN-US">I see that maybe INFORMATION and LIFE are
interconnected.</span><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black" lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black" lang="EN-US">Unfortunately, I am not sure that all
colleagues agree that information does not exist out
of the LIFE sphere.</span><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black" lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black" lang="EN-US">Because of this, the first point I expect
to reflect the correspondence between information and
life.</span><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black" lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black" lang="EN-US">Friendly greetings</span><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black" lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black" lang="EN-US">Krassimir</span><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black" lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black" lang="EN-US"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black" lang="EN-US"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif;color:black" lang="EN-US"> </span><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black" lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset></fieldset>
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<p><br>
</p>
<pre cols="72">--
-------------------------------------------------
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
<a href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" target="_blank">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>
<a href="http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/" target="_blank">http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/</a>
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