<div dir="ltr">From: <strong class="gmail_sendername" dir="auto">Marcus Abundis</strong> <span dir="auto"><<a href="mailto:55mrcs@gmail.com">55mrcs@gmail.com</a>></span><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Date: Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 3:40 PM<br>Subject: Re: [Fis] Informatic Primitives: Logical vs. Material<br>To: Joseph Brenner <<a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>><br></div><br><br><div dir="ltr">Last I heard LIR was entirely dualistic in nature which, perforce, excludes creativity.<div>Have you finally improved your model, or does it remain the same?</div><div><br></div><div>The view I posit is that of a dualist-triune, superficially dualistic in nature but essentially triune (i.e., requiring three parts) in operation.</div><div>This is not unlike a Hegelian dialectic . . . you have heard of that haven't you?<br clear="all"><div><div dir="ltr" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div><font color="#333333" face="proxima-nova-1, proxima-nova-2, Tahoma, Helvetica, Verdana, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:14.000000953674316px">Marcus</span></font></div></div></div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 2:54 PM Joseph Brenner <<a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" target="_blank">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="navy" face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";color:navy">A little bit like logic in reality, perhaps?<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="navy" face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";color:navy">Joseph<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold">From:</span></font></b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma">
Fis [mailto:<a href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es</a>] <b><span style="font-weight:bold">On
Behalf Of </span></b>Marcus Abundis<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> jeudi, 9 juillet 2020 13:49<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> <a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> [Fis] Informatic
Primitives: Logical vs. Material</span></font><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">Lars-Göran’s (1 July post) 20-40 different ways of using `information’
(and other words) is an excellent point. There are countless ways in which we
use any `word’. But, if we hope to frame `information science’ or `general
informational systems’ one must name *primitives* detailing base facets of
`information’. Exactness, primitively precise detail, is what affords `science’
– where better detail makes better science. Thus, `information’ (or even
`data') used as a core term is, in itself, of little use – in fact, it is so
vague and imprecise as to be confusing. We should speak instead of detailed
informatic primitives, only.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">For example, science as physics/chemistry/biology/etc. is supported by
firm `measurable and repeatable’ *primitive elements*. Without primitives
(bosons, atoms, cells, etc.), no science exists, nor is science even possible.
Instead confusion prevails (as with FIS?). In comparison, economics and
psychology are so inexact in their primitives one barely calls them science.
Still, in the end this leads one to ask `What *primitives* are required to
enact information science as a formal discipline?’<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">To answer this question, a difference between physical/hard science and
informatics is that *material primitives* support hard science (primitive
elements used in step-wise logical `levels’). But no material primitives
exist for informatics – or perhaps better said, an entire universe of
material primitives (from science and beyond) are available for informatics.
That informatic material (and abstract) vastness leads one to ask `At which
level should I begin my analysis?’ We thus see Pedro pointing to biology, Loet
seems to advocate for sociology(?), Yixin and Krassimir point to agency, and so
forth . . . the list is long and varied (as Francesco and Pedro also point out
in 1 & 2 July posts; sincere apologies if I mischaracterize your
interests above).<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">As such, from that informatic abundance, the only way to
proceed is to name *logical primitives* in lieu of *material primitives*.
Logical primitives must cover ALL FOREGOING MATERIAL LEVELS, but as a primitive
`meta perspective’. <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">To my mind’s eye, FIS dialogue often bounces around `What one level
might be best used?' (Shannon, biology, consciousness, etc.) or `What
characteristic traits/dynamics should we focus on?' (Shannon, primary,
secondary, etc.) . . . but rarely (if ever?) do I see actual GENERAL INFORMATIC
PRIMITIVES being named (please tell me if I missed it). This changed when I saw
Yixin's March 2020 post mentioning subject object roles – prompting me to
re-surface on FIS. As such . . . I have already suggested (via Yixin's 28 June
post) informatic primitives as (O)bject and (S)ubject roles with innate
(V)ariability. I welcome/encourage further discussion of actual
named GENERAL INFORMATIC PRIMITIVES that afford an advance on a science of
information . . .<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
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