<div dir="ltr"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 6pt;text-align:justify;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span lang="EN-GB">Dear Marcus and Bruno,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 6pt;text-align:justify;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span lang="EN-GB">I notice you share an ability to misrepresent
my name:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 6pt;text-align:justify;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span lang="PT-BR">Marcus
=> JAMIE</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 6pt;text-align:justify;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span lang="PT-BR">Bruno =>
James</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 6pt;text-align:justify;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span lang="EN-GB">I just want to tell you that I do not
appreciate this, in the context that with all other names you seem to do just
fine. Including with Pedro’s name, which I don’t see written as Peter or Perdr.
Maybe it reflects bias on your part, or simply mental laziness. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 6pt;text-align:justify;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Marcus<span lang="EN-GB">, </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 6pt;text-align:justify;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span lang="EN-GB">As to your question regarding Why
Information Grows: The Evolution of Order, from Atoms to Economies by Cesar
Hidalgo, a physicist by training, I would suggest that you ask him that
question. As to his work (<a href="https://cesarhidalgo.com/" style="color:blue">https://cesarhidalgo.com/</a>),
it is an interdisciplinary undertaking: </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 6pt 0.5in;text-align:justify;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span lang="EN-GB">César A. Hidalgo
is a Chilean-Spanish-American scholar known for his contributions to economic
complexity, data visualization, and artificial intelligence. He holds a PhD in
Physics from the University of Notre Dame and a Bachelor in Physics from
Universidad Católica de Chile. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 6pt 0.5in;text-align:justify;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span lang="EN-GB">Hidalgo currently
holds a Chair at the Artificial and Natural Intelligence Institute (ANITI) at
the University of Toulouse. He is also an Honorary Professor at the University
of Manchester and a Visiting Professor at Harvard's School of Engineering and
Applied Sciences. Between 2010 and 2019 Hidalgo led MIT’s Collective Learning
group as an Assistant and then Associate Professor. Prior to joining MIT,
Hidalgo was a research fellow at Harvard’s Kennedy School of Government.
Hidalgo is also a founder of Datawheel, an award winning company specialized in
the creation of data distribution and visualization systems. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 6pt 0.5in;text-align:justify;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span lang="EN-GB">Hidalgo’s
contributions have been recognized with numerous awards, including the 2018
Lagrange Prize and multiple Webby Awards (see below). Hidalgo's is also the
author of several books, including Why Information Grows (Basic Books, 2015),
The Atlas of Economic Complexity (MIT Press, 2014), and How Humans Judge
Machines (MIT Press, Forthcoming 2020).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 6pt;text-align:justify;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span lang="EN-GB">The Atlas of Economic Complexity treats
economic development in a unique way and ties everything together. It’s worth
taking a look if you are interested in looking at all the economic,
technological innovation and other interconnections in any society.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 6pt;text-align:justify;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span lang="EN-GB">Bruno, </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 6pt;text-align:justify;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span lang="EN-GB">Clearly, we see ‘reality’ differently. I
don’t think it is a matter of what assumptions you make. We share a ‘reality’
that is in front of us and to which we have access to through our sense organs.
It is very simple. It goes back to the fundamental problem of information: how
do we become what we become. A problem statement with which many of you might
agree or disagree since Shannon has a different take. I would say that this is
still an unanswered question, no matter what your musings. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 6pt;text-align:justify;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span lang="EN-GB">Your musings and any other musings, one cares
to make, suffer from the fact that in expressing them, after info-autopoietic
construction (info-autopoiesis has no relation to Maturana or Varela), are done
syntactically (language, symbols, writing, mathematics, sounds, elementary
arithmetic, food, perfumes, etc.). Syntactic expressions always lose something
in their manifestation (mainly meaning). So, in my naïve and simple world, all
constructions that rely on syntactic expressions are flawed by definition. No
matter how much scientific rigor you throw at it. Also, when you start having
thought experiments, they don’t really lead anywhere except where you want them
to lead. Imagination might be a blessing, but it also can be the curse of lack
of progress in the ‘real world’, whatever that is. Each of us is blessed with
the ability to believe whatever we want to believe and makes us happy, but if
after many years our work leads nowhere, we better take a second look at other
musings by other individuals. Myth is not only built out of imagination; it can
also be built out of complex mathematical and physical formulations and
imagination. That is why whatever is scientifically valid today may not be
tomorrow.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 6pt;text-align:justify;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span lang="EN-GB">Loet,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 6pt;text-align:justify;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span lang="EN-GB">I don’t know why agents always creep into
the conversation. We are not agents since we are an expression of nature that
no one knows how it came to be. We are organisms-in-our-environment that can
have no claim to agency. I don’t even know what agency means. From a
fundamental perspective, if you do not control your origin, you cannot aspire
to agency even though you might claim that you have agency. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 6pt;text-align:justify;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span lang="EN-GB">As an organism, the only meaning that is worth
having is the one that leads to satisfaction of our physiological and
relational needs, as part of an ecological network that we did not devise,
except as unwilling participants. The future ecological network that we will
inherit, because of our greed, might take its revenge against us hapless beings
with no agency. This is the context of information and eventually meaning.
Matter/energy are fundamental, ‘differences which make a difference’ are
derived from use of our sensory organs. What is our motivation? Satisfaction of
our physiological and relational needs, as part of an ecological network.
Action potentials may be viewed as the bits (binary digits) that result in information.
That is what needs discernment and discovery. How does that happen? Your two-dimensional
probability distribution is not far off the mark, if you consider that our
sensory organs are at least two-dimensional in nature. Again, this is what
needs further exploration and discernment. But my belief is that it is not a
probabilistic distribution problem. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 6pt;text-align:justify;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span lang="EN-GB">Stan, </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 6pt;text-align:justify;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span lang="EN-GB">Info-autopoiesis, or the self-referenced self-production
of information is a process that yields information in many forms and guises
from the detection by our sensory organs of moving matter/energy in our environment.
This means that there is no information in the environment, i.e., our sensory
organs are not organs for detection of information. This leads to the
conclusion that there is no information in the genome. Also, my feeling is that
the only emergent processes that exist are the ones we do not understand,
because if we did understand how they came about, there would be nothing unexpected
about them. This also means that the only effect of the creation of information
is the instantiation of actions within/without an organism, consciously or
unconsciously. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 6pt;text-align:justify;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span lang="EN-GB">Moisés,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 6pt;text-align:justify;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span lang="EN-GB">Info-autopoiesis is a process of self-referenced
self-production of information (Bateson information) where, </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 6pt 0.5in;text-align:justify;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span lang="EN-GB">To begin the
journey of determining differences using our five primary senses, it is important
to note that our senses deal with commensurable quantities/qualities, i.e., quantities/qualities
that have a common measure. For example, the sense of touch (whose
multidimensional structure includes mechanoreceptors, thermoreceptors, nocireceptors,
proprioceptors) might be, for simplicity, arbitrarily ascribed as being sensitive
only to pressure. In that limited role, our sense of touch is able to keep
track of all pressure sensations that come into its sphere of action. As might
be imagined, from one instant of time to the next, pressure sensations are felt
by the human in question and become part of her experience. This is how
quantitatively and unambiguously “a (pressure) difference” becomes qualitatively
“a (pressure) difference which makes a difference”. In a similar way, the other
dimensions of the sense of touch contribute with their own unique
quantitative/qualitative characteristics. Thus, in toto contributing to a multidimensional
sensory experience that consists of temporal/spatial differences. This is the
process of information that Bateson discovered and is applicable to any and all
of our primary senses, which not only act individually but in concert. Our
primary senses provide for us our only contact with our environment and are key
to our development. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 6pt;text-align:justify;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span lang="EN-GB">This is a short description related to our
five senses. Notice that with these five primary senses we are able to get to
any level of multi-dimensional information that we devise. It is a process of
differences on top of differences on top of differences. Notice that we are
having this conversation, whether agreeing or disagreeing. Also, every organism-in-its-environment
has its unique set of primary senses that allow it to perceive a signature of
the environment that is particular to their experience. I invite you to read my
paper as presented earlier. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 6pt;text-align:justify;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span lang="EN-GB">My best wishes for everyone's continued health in
this pandemic that has all the fingerprints of a Trump COVID-19 pandemic (Trump
virus?) in the United States (Wuhan virus indeed!). </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 6pt;text-align:justify;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span lang="EN-GB">Kind regards,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 6pt;text-align:justify;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span lang="EN-GB">Jaime</span></p></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 3:00 PM Stanley N Salthe <<a href="mailto:ssalthe@binghamton.edu">ssalthe@binghamton.edu</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">
<p><span>Joseph -- What you have added here, as I understand it, is the </span><span>idea of ‘resistance’ to an unfolding of a physical potential in an interaction involving (or maybe only triggered by) it. I’m unsure of whether there is ALWAYS resistance (implied by you via Lupasco), and to what extent that resistance could modify or even nullify the potential via the interaction, thus leading to an emergence where the potential has been effectively screened out.</span></p>
<p><span>STAN</span></p></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 1:35 PM Krassimir Markov <<a href="mailto:markov@foibg.com" target="_blank">markov@foibg.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div lang="FR" dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Calibri;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<div><font size="4">Dear Joseph and FIS Colleagues,</font></div>
<div><font size="4"></font> </div>
<div><font size="4">Thank you very much for the nice posts!</font></div>
<div><font size="4">Please excuse me for the delay of my current
post!</font></div>
<div><font size="4">During the last weeks I had been occupied with organizing the
ITHEA® ITA 2020 International Scientific Events, including the GIT 2020 Int.
conference. </font></div>
<div><font size="4"></font> </div>
<div><font size="4">Now, I want to make a little methodical remark.</font></div>
<div><font size="4"></font> </div>
<div><font size="4">If we take 0 and 1 as phenomena which we want to investigate
we have to make choice.</font></div>
<div><font size="4">To take 0 as primary concept and to try to explain 1 by it or
vice versa.</font></div>
<div><font size="4">In both cases, we couldn’t do any reasonable conclusion.
</font></div>
<div><font size="4">Our two concepts – 0 and 1 – are concepts at the same
level.</font></div>
<div><font size="4"></font> </div>
<div><font size="4">We need a third concept to be accepted as a primary and to
explain our concepts by it.</font></div>
<div><font size="4">In mathematics this problem had been solved centuries
ago.</font> <font size="4"><br>Here I want to remember it.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="4">The third concept can be the concept “Digit”. </font></div>
<div><font size="4">This way, 0 and 1 may be explained easily as concrete states
of Digit.</font></div>
<div><font size="4"></font> </div>
<div><font size="4">The same problem was pointed by Stan. The dialectical unity of
two opposite states.</font></div>
<div><font size="4">Following the reasons given above, we can solve the problem
with dualism of concept “Information” by taking an other concept as
primary.</font></div>
<div><font size="4"></font> </div>
<div><font size="4">Such concept for me is the concept “Reflection”.</font></div>
<div><font size="4"></font> </div>
<div><font size="4">As I already had written, the information and data are kinds
of reflection which differ only on the basis of subject’s or agent’s possibility
to connect the reflection to other his/her mental models.</font></div>
<div><font size="4"></font> </div>
<div><font size="4">Friendly greetings</font></div>
<div><font size="4">Krassimir</font></div>
<div><font size="4"></font> </div>
<div><font size="4"></font> </div>
<div><font size="4"></font> </div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="4"></font> </div>
<div style="font-size:small;text-decoration:none;font-family:Calibri;font-weight:normal;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-style:normal;display:inline">
<div style="font:10pt tahoma">
<div> </div>
<div style="background-image:initial;background-color:rgb(245,245,245);background-size:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;background-position:initial;background-repeat:initial">
<div><b>From:</b> <a title="joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" target="_blank">Joseph Brenner</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, July 08, 2020 4:38 PM</div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a title="fis@listas.unizar.es" href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis</a> </div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fis] Krassimir's question about
information</div></div></div>
<div> </div></div>
<div style="font-size:small;text-decoration:none;font-family:Calibri;font-weight:normal;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-style:normal;display:inline">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode"">Dear
Friends,<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p><span><font size="3" face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode"">A short
dialogue:<u></u><u></u></span></font></span></p>
<p><span><font size="3" face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode"">Stan: Krassimir: “Is
information primary or derived/secondary?” My (Stan’s) restatement is: "Is
information, as physical form, potential? -- or emergent upon having an effect?
This formulation shows that there is no difference between these
concepts.”</span></font></span><font face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode""><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p><span><font size="3" face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode"">Joseph:
</span></font></span><font face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode"">HOW is it both? What does it mean “to
be both” at the same time? <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p><span><font size="3" face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode"">Stan: My “potential”
refers to ‘in itself’, which (at any moment) is timeless, and is Krassimir’s
“primary information”.</span></font></span><span><font face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode""> </span></font></span><span><font face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode"">While my “having an effect” refers to
a particular moment when a primary physical form is acting, or being acted upon,
when its form may have consequences, or become consequential. In this event its
form generates “derived/secondary information".
<u></u><u></u></span></font></span></p>
<p><span><font size="3" face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode"">Joseph: This is what
requires explication and where I think Lupasco had something to offer, in his
basic principle of dynamic opposition </span></font></span><span><font face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode"">(Stan: generating “derived/secondary
information)</span></font></span><span><font face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode"">. This is no more and no less than
that a falling object instantiates kinetic and potential energy at the same time
</span></font></span><span><font face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode"">(Stan: That is, its
primary form still exists, even if deformed)</span></font></span><span><font face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode"">, except that real complex processes
do not “fall to the bottom” (no 0 nor 1).</span></font></span><font face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode""><u></u><u></u></span></font></p></div></div></div>
<div>
<blockquote style="border-width:medium medium medium 1pt;border-style:none none none solid;border-top-color:initial;border-right-color:initial;border-bottom-color:initial;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p><font size="3" face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode"">Stan:
Effects necessarily emerge from potentials (IF they emerge at all). But are
both potential and emergent 'at the same time' only while the potential is
unfolding: a physical situation embodies a potential, which can inform.
When/if that potential unfolds the potential is realized, and emerges in its
effects.</span></font><font face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span style="font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode""><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p><font size="3" face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode"">Joseph: I agree,
but in my view your correct expression, “while the potential is unfolding” has
two significant consequences: the process is neither instantaneous nor
spontaneous. In the Lupasco view of dynamics, a potential ‘unfolds’ against
some actual resistance to that unfolding, and the effects, in almost the same
language, emerge, actualized, as a consequence of that opposition. The word
“only” to modify “at the same time” is justified for simple processes which
<i><span style="font-style:italic">do</span></i> go to an ideal limit of 0 or
1, <i><span style="font-style:italic">not</span></i> for complex,
informational processes. Is there an ‘end’ to this dialogue?! And is
information not present throughout it?<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p><font size="3" face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode"">Cheers,<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p><font size="3" face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode"">Joseph<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p><font size="3" face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode""><u></u><u></u></span></font> </p></div></div></blockquote></div></div>
<div id="gmail-m_-7840913594787119513gmail-m_992472945134952413DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2"><br><br>
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<tbody>
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<td>
<p style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri,Verdana,Arial,Helvetica;color:rgb(61,77,90)">L'absence
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</p></td></tr></tbody></table><br></div>
<p>
</p><hr>
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INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL<br>
<br>
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.<br>
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: <a href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a><br>
Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.<br>
<a href="http://listas.unizar.es" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://listas.unizar.es</a><br>
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</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div>Jaime F. Cárdenas-García, PhD, PE</div><div><a href="mailto:JFCardenasGarcia@gmail.com" target="_blank">JFCardenasGarcia@gmail.com</a></div><div>(240) 498-7556 (cell)<br></div><div><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>