<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Dear Karl,<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Thank you for this reply. Some comment follow below.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On 2 Jul 2020, at 15:28, Karl Javorszky <<a href="mailto:karl.javorszky@gmail.com" class="">karl.javorszky@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><b class=""><span class="">Questions raised<span class=""></span></span></b></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><i class=""><span class="">Jaime:<span style="display:none" class=""><span class=""></span></span></span></i></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt 36pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><i class=""><span class="">The
fundamental problem of information may be … how did we become two cells? If you
solve this problem, from a fundamental perspective, even using an Indexical
Digital Mechanism explanation, then I believe you have solved the fundamental
problem of information. <span class=""></span></span></i></p><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><i class=""><span class="">Bruno:<span class=""></span></span></i></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><i class=""><span class="">… Assuming
Digital Mechanism, there is a level of description of my body such that I will
survive with my body being substituted by a digital body, emulating the
functional role of my part at that level. In that case I am duplicable at that
level. I can be “read and cut” in Helsinki (say), and reconstituted in Moscow
and Washington (where the information read in Helsinki has been sent). <span class=""></span></span></i></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><i class=""><span class="">What can I
expect when I am in Helsinki, prior to the read-cut and copy? </span></i><span class=""><span class=""></span></span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span class=""><span class=""> </span></span></p><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><b class=""><span class="">Homunculus 2.0, 21<sup class="">st</sup> century improved
model with Artificial Intelligence<span class=""></span></span></b></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="">Bruno’s
assertion is, that an algorithm can be found that replicates Individual B in
such a fashion, that the replicate can be mistaken for a person who drinks
coffee, aside of acting just like Individual B. To soften this up a bit, let us
imagine that both Replicate_Moscow and Replicate_Washington are able to
exchange in meaningful conversation and recognise Individual B’s favourite
painters, poets and composers. Homunculus 2.0 should at first have no bodily
functions. That would complicate the procedure too much.</span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div>The Mechanist hypothesis gives an operational definition. A mechanist practitioners is someone who believes that there is a level of description of his body or brain such that he will survive, in the usual informal clinical sense, with a digital body or brain emulating his biological brain at that level of description. To say that Mechanism is true consists in saying that this mechanist practitioner is right. The “original” is always annihilated. If not, it is a duplication experience, and this is used to introduce the first person indeterminacy. Even God cannot tell the Helsinki guy what will be the subjective result of the duplication, except by saying that he will feel to be in Moscow or in Washington, and never in both at once.</div><div><br class=""></div><div><br class=""></div><div><br class=""></div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class=""><span class=""></span></span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span class=""><span class=""> </span></span></p><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="">The ability
to construct Homunculus 2.0 is based on an extension to what Bruno mentions quasi
in an aside:<span class=""></span></span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span class=""><span class=""> </span></span></p><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><i class=""><span class="">… the
arithmetical reality (the so called standard model of arithmetic, that is the <b class="">mathematical structure (N, 0, s, +, *)</b>)
generates and executes all computations, including the infinitely many
computations going through my (indexical) state.<span class=""></span></span></i></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span class=""><span class=""> </span></span></p><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="">There is an
addition to be made to the <b class=""><i class="">mathematical structure (N, 0, s, +, *), </i></b>namely
the comparison-fulfilment operation. Depending on the choice of the users,
symbols {<, ≠, →, ↔ or similar} can be used. The meaning of the extension is
that the elements have a-priori properties, which allow sequencing among them. The
permutations are implied in the <b class=""><i class="">mathematical structure (N, 0, s, +, *), </i></b>but
the procedures of transforming – resequencing – a permutation into a different
permutation appear, to me, a layman, not to be included in the <b class=""><i class="">mathematical
structure (N, 0, s, +, *).</i></b></span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div>The mathematical structure (N, 0, s, +, *) is build on classical (and informal) predicate logic, so it inherits the negation. A model satisfy ~p if and only if it does not satisfy p. Models are non constructive object.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>A problem here is that the physicists use the term “model” where the logician use the term “theory”. To avoid confusion, I often use the term “a reality” for “a model”. </div><div><br class=""></div><div><br class=""></div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class=""><b class=""><i class=""><span class=""></span></i></b></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><b class=""><i class=""><span class=""><span class=""> </span></span></i></b></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><b class=""><span class="">Two versions of one and the same state of the world</span></b><span class=""><span class=""></span></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="">The
automatic duplication of a Zusammenhang (web/set/collection of relations) comes
from the fact that <i class="">a+b=c </i>can be
interpreted in <i class="">two </i>ways, once from
the viewpoint of <i class="">a=c-b, </i>and once from
the viewpoint of <i class="">b=c-a</i>. There is in
both subspaces sufficient material to allow for independent subvariants. Apparently,
it is possible to evolve separately in two fashions: once the world is
described as a multitude of variants of <i class="">a=c-b</i>;
quasi as yellow garden peas, and once the world is described as a multitude of
variants of <i class="">b=c-a</i>; quasi as green
garden peas.</span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div>Yes, at some point the notion of state is relative, notably on the universal system which emulates the computation, but the machine internal to some computations will rightly feel to be a well defined entity relatively to the universe that she can contemplate.</div><div><br class=""></div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class=""><span class=""></span></span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span class=""><span class=""> </span></span></p><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="">The two
versions appear in a geometrical form as cycles (webs of bondage, strings,
etc.) once one applies a soft tangential pressure to the natural numbers (pairs
of them) which causes them to resequence. One and the same statement appears to
be coming into existence twice, but for some special cases.<span class=""></span></span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span class=""><span class=""> </span></span></p><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><b class=""><span class="">Pictures</span></b><span class=""><span class=""></span></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="">This was
prepared for the Symmetry Festival in Sofia, which got reported to 2021<span class=""></span></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class=""><a href="https://www.researchgate.net/publication/342623466_STANDARD_PLANES_AND_SPACES_EMERGE_WHEN_SEQUENCING_PAIRS_OF_NATURAL_NUMBERS" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" class="">https://www.researchgate.net/publication/342623466_STANDARD_PLANES_AND_SPACES_EMERGE_WHEN_SEQUENCING_PAIRS_OF_NATURAL_NUMBERS</a><span class=""></span></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="">and<span class=""></span></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class=""><a href="https://www.academia.edu/43494958/STANDARD_PLANES_AND_SPACES_EMERGE_WHEN_SEQUENCING_PAIRS_OF_NATURAL_NUMBERS" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" class="">https://www.academia.edu/43494958/STANDARD_PLANES_AND_SPACES_EMERGE_WHEN_SEQUENCING_PAIRS_OF_NATURAL_NUMBERS</a><span class=""></span></span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span class=""><span class=""> </span></span></p><div class=""><br class=""></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div>That plays a role, certainly. But the apparition of space must be made from the self-reference logic if we want to be able to use the Gödel-Löb-Solovay distinction between true and provable to get the distinction between the measurable and sharable quanta, and the non measurable, qualitative and non sharable qualia. The self-referential discourse offers this an important gift coming from incompleteness.</div><div><br class=""></div><div><br class=""></div><div><br class=""></div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="">I believe to
understand what Bruno is trying to express on the difference between the
replicable part of the intelligence (which can be built in an AI project) and the
human-as-a-biologic-entity. </span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div>The mind is duplicable, like the body, but the soul (the first person is not duplicable *from* its first person perspective. The guy in Washington will feel to be unique in Washington, and will feel that the guy in Moscow is a doppelgänger. And vice versa. But mechanism entails that if the AI might has a soul. A machine as simple as Peano arithmetic already knows that she has a soul, and that she cannot prove it to you, and that such a soul is not a machine, nor anything capable of being described in any third person term. Like Marvin Minski oversaw; the machine will be as much confused as we are by the mind-body conundrum. </div><div><br class=""></div><div><br class=""></div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="">As far as I understand what he says, I see myself
to support his ideas, in my language and using my terms of reference (which are
based on the axiomatic nature of finite assemblies and periodic changes).</span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div>Both mind and physics are independent of the universal machinery use at the start. I use elementary arithmetic only because most people are familiar with them since primary school, but in more advanced treatment I prefer to use the combinators, for drivers technical reason. </div><div><br class=""></div><div>The creative bomb is Turing’s discovery of the universal machine (made also by Babbage, Emil Post, Markov, etc.). That machine is the one ascribing meaning to information, and then realising that she cannot define “meaning”, unless she bets on the mechanist theory, in which case she get the whole “theology” (the logics G and G* and their necessary (by incompleteness) intensional variant. </div><div>By (re)defining God by the notion of arithmetical truth, we find back the neoplatonist theology and physics. That is hardly a coincidence? It is more plausible that the neoplatonist were just serious and honest in their introspective exploration.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>Thank you for your comment. I think we agree on the main thing, except perhaps that with mechanism, there is no real distinction between the mechanical and the biological, or between “natural” and “artificial”. In fact the difference between artificial and natural is … artificial, and thus natural, probably for the entities which develop “a big ego” and feel different from the other creature…</div><div><br class=""></div><div>Note that the difference between hardware and software is NOT relative. Eventually the appearance of hardware is explained by a statistics on all computations (which are executed in the arithmetical reality). Mechanism enforces a return to Plato, and is incompatible with Aristotle materialist conception of reality. Quantum Mechanics confirms the many-histories aspect of the natural world.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>All the best,</div><div><br class=""></div><div>Bruno</div><div><br class=""></div><div>(This is my first post of the week).</div><div><br class=""></div><div><br class=""></div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class=""><span class=""></span></span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span class=""><span class=""> </span></span></p><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="">Karl<span class=""></span></span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span class=""><span class=""> </span></span></p>
</div><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Am Do., 2. Juli 2020 um 13:58 Uhr schrieb Bruno Marchal <<a href="mailto:marchal@ulb.ac.be" class="">marchal@ulb.ac.be</a>>:<br class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;" class="">Dear James,<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On 1 Jul 2020, at 17:00, Jaime Cardenas-Garcia <<a href="mailto:jfcardenasgarcia@gmail.com" target="_blank" class="">jfcardenasgarcia@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><p class=""><span class="">Dear Bruno,</span></p><p class=""><span class="">The fundamental problem
of information may be characterized very simply as: How do we become what we become?
A question that we can pose to our parents as well, and so on. At one point in
time we were a single cell, now we are a multi-cell organism. More importantly,
how did we become two cells? If you solve this problem, from a fundamental </span><span lang="EN-GB" class="">perspective, even using an </span><span class="">Indexical Digital Mechanism explanation</span><span lang="EN-GB" class="">, then I believe you have solved the fundamental problem of
information. </span></p></div></div></div></blockquote><div class="">I would say that this problem has been solved by the second recursion theorem of Kleene, at least for the third person (3p) perspective. The basic idea is simple, and consists to apply a duplicator to a duplicator. Take the simple duplicator D. We have Dx = xx for all x. Then DD gives DD, so DD is a simple duplicator.</div><div class="">I guess you know this, and perhaps to allude to the question of the first person experience in such duplication. I illustrate it with some thought experience. Assuming Digital Mechanism, there is a level of description of my body such that I will survive with my body being substituted by a digital body, emulating the functional role of my part at that level. In that case I am duplicable at that level. I can be “read and cut” in Helsinki (say), and reconstituted in Moscow and Washington (where the information read in Helsinki has been sent). </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">What can I expect when I am in Helsinki, prior to the read-cut and copy? </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Imagine that in Helsinki, I am told that, both in Washington and in Moscow, a cup of coffee will be offered to me. Then, in Helsinki I can (assuming that not only Mechanism is true, but I believe it to be true) predict with certainty that I will have a cup of coffee, as this happens in both continuations. For the same reason, I can predict in Helsinki that I will see only one city (Washington or Moscow but not both), as in both cities, any guy among those “owning” the reconstituted bodies will feel to live (1p view) to be in only city. So I can predict with certainty that I will get a cup of coffee in one city, but I cannot be sure of which one. If I predict Moscow, I know that the one in Washington will admit that he was wrong, for example. A prediction is considered as successful if it is verified in both cities (in all continuations of me, where me is the owner(s) of my personal memory (up to some point). This means also that when, after the reconstitution, I localise myself and discover in which city I feel to be, I get one (first person) bit of information (Shannon information). </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">So, self-duplication + the first-person/third person distinction explains where some information came from. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Now, what is not well known or taught (when taught at all), the arithmetical reality (the so called standard model of arithmetic, that is the mathematical structure (N, 0, s, +, *)) generates and executes all computations, including the infinitely many computations going through my (indexical) state. This is eventually what will explain where the “illusion” of a physical reality will come from: it emerges from the statistics on all computation going through my relative state. The math confirms this, as we get quantum logics for those first person indeterminacy. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><p class=""><span lang="EN-GB" class="">Have you ever wondered how you came to
stand on the shoulder of giants, and become a giant yourself that uses the </span><span class="">Indexical Digital
Mechanism explanation</span><span lang="EN-GB" class="">? Some of us may stand on the
shoulder of little people and we need a lot of little people to get to the
level of giants standing on the shoulder of giants. But then again, what are we
here to do anyway.</span></p><div class=""><br class=""></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">To assume Digital Mechanism, we need to assume a bit of elementary arithmetic, if only to define precisely what we mean by digital machine (that is, to accept the Church Turing thesis).</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Now, we can prove that that elementary arithmetic cannot be derived from less. By elementary arithmetic I mean here classical logic + the axioms:</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><p class=""><span lang="EN-GB" class="">My point is simply, we (living beings) are
the ones that do all of this creation by means of a process of info-autopoiesis.
</span></p></div></div></div></blockquote><div class="">I am quite OK with this, if by “we” we mean all the universal numbers in arithmetic. We might say that they are not “living”, but they are the “point” through which a consciousness flux go, and can differentiate, leading the many information full histories.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><p class=""><span lang="EN-GB" class="">Whatever it is that we want to do or talk about, including an </span><span class="">Indexical Digital
Mechanism explanation, we do it by info-autopoiesis. </span></p></div></div></div></blockquote><div class="">Yes. I said this to Varella, and I heard on that occasion that he knew about the work of Judson Webb (my own work can be sees as a continuation of the work of Webb, on the positive role that Gödel’s incompleteness theorem plays in Mechanist philosophy). </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><p class=""><span class="">This email, an asynchronous communication
process that we are engaging in, is an info-autopoietic process. Have you ever
wondered what is to the left of to the right of the first diagram in Shannon’s <i class="">A
Mathematical Theory of Communication</i> paper? It is a living being, that
through a process of info-autopoiesis composes the syntactical message that
gets composed or interpreted. So, how does that process of info-autopoiesis
work?</span></p><div class=""><br class=""></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I think that the universal machine (+ some inductive ability/axioms) already explains this through its canonical “theology”. The machine explains that she cannot explain where the universal machinery (like elementary arithmetic) comes from, but can explain where consciousness and qualia come from, and how the appearances of a physical reality comes from and why it remains relatively stable (the most complex thing here).</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><p class=""><span class="">Like Keynes once said, ‘in the long run, we are all dead’. This in reference to a moribund capitalist system in the midst of the Great Depression. This
pandemic is bringing closure much closer than we would like to admit. </span></p></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">The problem does not come from “capitalism” (free-market), but from the absence of capitalism due to the money based on lies, which kill the competition and replace the free-market with an economy driven by the crime, once the liars get the power. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">The problem is in the lies, in the mis-information, and that problem arise already in arithmetic: universal machine lies all the time, and arithmetic is full of lies, and it is unclear if that is not needed at some level for life and consciousness to develop/differentiate.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">The second recursion theorem, and incompleteness warns us that there is no cure for that, and it is part of the game of life. The pandemics reminds us our fragility, and the interest in collaborating instead of making money on disease and catastrophe (like with prohibition).</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">We will not die. Dying is the nature authoritarian argument, and it is not valid (!). It is a local illusion, a sort of local and relative amnesia. We cannot die from the first person perspective, because there are infinitely many computations going through us, and we always feel like surviving. I guess the brain is more use to hide and filter information, than to create it.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Best,</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Bruno</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><p class=""><span class="">Kind regards,</span></p><p class=""><span class="">Jaime</span><span lang="EN-GB" class=""></span></p>
<br class=""></div></div><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote"><div class="gmail_attr" dir="ltr">On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 8:35 AM Bruno Marchal <<a href="mailto:marchal@ulb.ac.be" target="_blank" class="">marchal@ulb.ac.be</a>> wrote:<br class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204)"><div class="">Dear Jaime,<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On 30 Jun 2020, at 17:33, Jaime Cardenas-Garcia <<a href="mailto:jfcardenasgarcia@gmail.com" target="_blank" class="">jfcardenasgarcia@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><p class=""><span class="">Dear Bruno and Christophe,</span></p><p class=""><span class="">Let me begin by defining
‘intrinsic’ from Merriam-Webster (<a href="https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/intrinsic" target="_blank" class="">https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/intrinsic</a>)</span><span lang="EN-GB" class=""><br class=""></span></p><span lang="EN-GB" class=""><div class=""><span id="gmail-m_-587081846135171868gmail-m_-5266444246125439114cid:ii_kc23937i0" class=""><image.png></span><br class=""></div></span><p class=""><span class="">I would venture to say
that definitions 1a, 2a and 2b seem applicable. Also, organisms/living beings are
not machines, </span></p></div></div></div></blockquote><div class="">This depends on your (metaphysical, or cognitive-science-theoretical) assumption. I assume Indexical Digital Mechanism (which is already needed to make sense of Darwin). From this I have proven that we cannot assume more than elementary arithmetic in metaphysics (Pythagorus was right). From elementary arithmetic, we can derive the existence of the universal numbers, and explains why they necessarily develop belief in a “physical universe”. The proof is constructive and can bestsellers tested? It is enough to compare the physics “in the head of the universal machine/number” and what we observe. The physics “in the head of the machine” which has been derived from arithmetic is the quantum mechanics of Everett-Griffith-Omnès-Hartle-Gell’man, so, in that sense, nature has confirmed the immaterialist pythagorean-like consequence of the digital mechanist hypothesis, … until now.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">To grasp this, it is important to understand that the universal Turing machine is an arithmetical notion, entirely definable using only the symbol s (successor), + and * with the logical symbol. No physics is assumed here, and eventually, physics is explained by this.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><p class=""><span class="">since machines and other artificial things (including science,
number theory, Gödel-Löb-Solovay self-reference logic, etc.) are created by
living beings. </span></p></div></div></div></blockquote><div class="">OK? I see that you assume some physical universe “out there”. I do not, and I can explain why this is impossible once we assume (weak) version of Mechanism. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><p class=""><span class="">The origin of organisms/living beings has not been ascertained,
except that we are here and have ‘evolved’ from our earliest origins. So, this
is the basis for what is described in the paper. </span></p><p class=""><span class="">It goes without saying
that some believe that information is a third quantity of the Universe, and that
information exists in the environment for the taking, such as information in
the Genome. </span></p></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I think we must distinguish the third person notion of information, for which we can develop theories (Shannon, Kolmogorov, quantum information theory, … (there are many such theories), and first person information, for which we can extract a phenomenology, and explain its qualitative (but non rationally justifiable) aspects.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">If you take the Theaetetus theory of knowledge to define the soul (aka the first person), that is by “provability-and-truth”, the incompleteness theorem enforces that it will obey a S4 logic (the traditional theory of knowledge), but with more axioms, and with an explanation of why the machine, despite knowing that they have a soul, already knows that they cannot prove it, or even ascribe any third person description to it. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><p class=""><span class="">These beliefs are based on postulates and seem ingrained in the
scientific belief system. </span></p></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">The big novelty with (digital) mechanism is that physics is no more the fundamental science, but is reduced to elementary arithmetic (aka computer science, aka information theory). This is usually hard to swallow, as we live in the christian (materialism) era.</div><div class="">Most people have forgotten that the original doubt of the ancient thinker of antiquity was not about God (which is by definition the Reality), but about the physical universe. Is the physical universe what exist, or is the physical universe only the border or shadow of a bigger invisible reality? With Mechanism, the answer is that the physical reality is a first person plural construct coming from the way the arithmetical reality is seen from inside by its internal creatures (the universal numbers).</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">The physical is but one mode of self-reference, among all those that incompleteness distinguishes.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">There are 8 main one:</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""> - p<span style="white-space:pre-wrap" class=""> </span>(Truth, the One, God, Reality, …)</div><div class="">- []p<span style="white-space:pre-wrap" class=""> </span>(provability, belief, intellect, mind, …)</div><div class="">- []p & p<span style="white-space:pre-wrap" class=""> </span>(Soul, first person, knowledge, …)</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">- []p & <>t<span style="white-space:pre-wrap" class=""> </span>(intelligible Matter, quanta)</div><div class="">- []p & <>t & p<span style="white-space:pre-wrap" class=""> </span>(sensible matter, qualia)</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Those are eight! (Three of those modes is still split in two by the incompleteness phenomenon).</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><p class=""><span class="">There is also the general belief based on postulates that
organisms/living beings are agents. This paper does not rely on any of these
beliefs to argue its case. </span></p><p class=""><span class="">The fundamental
problem of information is, to identify how a human organism, in a
self-referential process, develops from a state in which its knowledge of the
human-organism-in-its-environment is almost non-existent to a state in which
the human organism not only recognizes the existence of the environment but
also sees itself as part of the human-organism-in-its-environment system.</span></p><div class=""><br class=""></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Hmm… well, eventually this is a bit of an illusion (with the mechanist hypothesis).</div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><p class=""><span class="">Norbert Wiener states that
‘information is information, not matter or energy.’ So, information is not
energy, but neither is it a third quantity of the Universe. </span></p></div></div></div></blockquote><div class="">Indeed. With mechanism, energy itself is a first person plural way top classify first person information. The information itself comes from the arithmetical truth. It is important to understand that such an arithmetical truth is not definable, nor axiomatisable. Now, energy does share some quantitative aspect with information, and those notion remains related, but cannot be identified. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><p class=""><span class="">As Christophe implies
‘a difference which makes a difference’ might relate to an energy difference or
variation, but it is an energy difference or variation to which the organisms/living
beings learn to ascribe meaning to through a process of info-autopoiesis. Meaning
is not imposed either by the environment or externally to the organisms/living
beings.</span></p><p class=""><span class="">A fundamental approach
may lead to high level characterizations.</span></p><div class=""><br class=""></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">What you say might make sense in the mechanist theory, but eventually, with mechanism, we must derive the theory of matter from number self-reference (or from any Turing complete theory, I use number only because most people are familiar with them, … in my course I use the combinators of Shoenfinkel-Curry-Feys…).</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Of course, mechanism might be false, but I have not yet seen any evidence. I derived Quantum Mechanics when I was young, and proudly consider that I did refute Mechanism … until I realise that the physicists were already there.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I think we must distinguish third person notion of information, and the subjective (meaningful) way the universal number/machine can classify the information, making it psychological, physical, theological etc. (which here are all phenomenologically extracted from incompleteness).</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">This of course is closer to Plato than the current Aristotelian Paradigm and its material ontological commitment.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Best,</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Bruno</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><p class=""><br class=""></p><p class=""><span class="">Jaime </span></p>
<br class=""></div></div><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote"><div class="gmail_attr" dir="ltr">On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 9:28 AM Christophe Menant <<a href="mailto:christophe.menant@hotmail.fr" target="_blank" class="">christophe.menant@hotmail.fr</a>> wrote:<br class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204)">
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<span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US" class="">Dear All,
<br class="">
Different characterizations of information (like attributive vs subjective, or primary vs secondary) can indeed be introduced. But I’m afraid that these high-level characteristics keep us far away from the basic reason of being of information, and also far
from a possible definition. <br class="">
Let me recall some basics already addressed in our discussions: <br class="">
* Information exists only by and for agents that manage the meaning associated to it. Without its associated meaning, information has no reason to exist.<br class="">
* Information can be defined as an energy variation that conveys meaning or participates to meaning generation for an agent (the meaning leading to an action by the agent brings us close to the definition “a difference that makes a difference”). Such definition
can be used for humans, animals and artificial agents, assuming we explicit what is a meaning and what is meaning generation (2020 short paper at<span class="">
</span></span><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;font-size:12pt" class=""><a href="https://philpapers.org/archive/MENITA-7.pdf" target="_blank" class=""><span style="color:blue" lang="EN-US" class="">https://philpapers.org/archive/MENITA-7.pdf</span></a></span><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US" class="">).
<br class="">
<span class="">Can these basics be used to look at high levels like attributive, subjective, primary or secondary?
<br class="">
Why not?<br class="">
<span class=""> </span>Best <br class="">
Christophe<br class="">
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________</span></span></div>
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<span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US" class=""><span class=""><br class="">
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<div id="gmail-m_-587081846135171868gmail-m_-5266444246125439114gmail-m_1567366477997339807divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr" class=""><font style="font-size:11pt" face="Calibri, sans-serif" class=""><b class="">De :</b> Fis <<a href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" class="">fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es</a>> de la part de Loet Leydesdorff <<a href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net" target="_blank" class="">loet@leydesdorff.net</a>><br class="">
<b class="">Envoyé :</b> lundi 29 juin 2020 08:14<br class="">
<b class="">À :</b> FIS <<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" class="">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>><br class="">
<b class="">Objet :</b> Re: [Fis] Fwd: 10 Principles</font>
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<div id="gmail-m_-587081846135171868gmail-m_-5266444246125439114gmail-m_1567366477997339807x_xf5f6ab4d92f5411" class="">Dear Krassimir</div>
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<blockquote style="padding-top:0px;padding-right:0px;padding-left:10px;margin-top:3px;margin-right:0px;margin-left:5px;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204)" type="cite" class="">
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<div style="font:10pt tahoma" class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class="">These two points correspond to the different paradigms about concept information.</font></div>
<div style="font:10pt tahoma" class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class="">The first one is based on understanding that the information exists independently of consciousness and it is everywhere. This is so called “Attributive paradigm”.</font></div>
<div style="font:10pt tahoma" class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class="">The second one is the “Subjective paradigm” which is based on understanding that information is a result from consciousness processing and exists only in its memory.</font></div>
<div style="font:10pt tahoma" class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class="">So, it is clear, I belong to the second paradigm.</font></div>
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<div id="gmail-m_-587081846135171868gmail-m_-5266444246125439114gmail-m_1567366477997339807x_xf5f6ab4d92f5411" style="font-size:13.33px" class="">
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<div id="gmail-m_-587081846135171868gmail-m_-5266444246125439114gmail-m_1567366477997339807x_xf5f6ab4d92f5411" class="">
<div id="gmail-m_-587081846135171868gmail-m_-5266444246125439114gmail-m_1567366477997339807x_xf5f6ab4d92f5411" class=""><font style="font-size:11pt" class="">The issue is, in my opinion, the specification of the relation. Concepts are specified and entertained in discourses to which we have reflexive access to different extends. "Objective knowledge" is
based on coding the communication. </font></div>
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<font size="4" face="Calibri" color="#ff0000" class="">Why “data” instead of information? </font>
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<font color="#ff0000" class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class="">The “Data“ and “Information” are dialectically interconnected.
<br class="">
The same reflection is Data or Information depending of the subjective interconnections between internal mental models and it.</font></font></div>
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<font style="color:rgb(255,0,0)" class=""><font face="Calibri" class=""><font size="4" class="">What is reflected by whom?
<font class="">The reflection for the Subject is what is activated on its receptors. So, the subject, or INFOS, reflects states of its external and internal sensors.</font></font></font></font></div>
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<font style="font-size:14pt" face="tahoma" class=""><font size="4" class="">There is a model of agency in the background of these formulations. The "states" cannot communicate. </font></font></div>
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<div style="font:10pt tahoma" class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class=""></font> </div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0pt" class=""><font size="4" class=""><font style="color:rgb(255,0,0)" class="">The measurement is not clear.<font class=""> Yes! What is happen in the consciousness is still not known. But for practical needs we already used differed structures
and distances. There is nice work of Deza and Deza called “Encyclopedia of </font>
</font>distances” published by Springer. In addition you may see the ITHEA book “Mathematics of distances”
<a class="">http://foibg.com/ibs_isc/ibs-25/ibs-25.htm</a> . </font></div>
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<font size="4" face="Calibri" class="">Why not use information theory for the measurement? (Theil, 1972)</font></div>
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</font></div>
<div id="gmail-m_-587081846135171868gmail-m_-5266444246125439114gmail-m_1567366477997339807x_xf5f6ab4d92f5411" class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class="">Best,</font></div>
<div id="gmail-m_-587081846135171868gmail-m_-5266444246125439114gmail-m_1567366477997339807x_xf5f6ab4d92f5411" class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class="">Loet</font></div>
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<div style="font:10pt tahoma" class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class="">You are welcome for further questions and remarks!</font></div>
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<div style="font:10pt tahoma" class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class="">Friendly greetings</font></div>
<div style="font:10pt tahoma" class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class="">Krassimir</font></div>
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<div style="font:10pt tahoma" class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class=""></font> </div>
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<div class=""><b class="">From:</b> <a title="loet@leydesdorff.net" href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net" target="_blank" class="">
Loet Leydesdorff</a> </div>
<div class=""><b class="">Sent:</b> Sunday, June 28, 2020 8:57 PM</div>
<div class=""><b class="">To:</b> <a title="markov@foibg.com" href="mailto:markov@foibg.com" target="_blank" class="">Krassimir Markov</a> ;
<a title="fis@listas.unizar.es" href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" class="">FIS</a> </div>
<div class=""><b class="">Subject:</b> Re: [Fis] 10 Principles</div>
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<div style="font-family:Calibri;font-size:small;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;text-decoration:none;display:inline" class="">
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<div id="gmail-m_-587081846135171868gmail-m_-5266444246125439114gmail-m_1567366477997339807x_m_7434984660882881271xb73edf57ea2a451fad291f3806dbcb8c" class=""><p class=""><span style="font-family:calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14pt" class="">Dear Krassimir,
</span></p><p class=""><span style="font-family:calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14pt" class=""><br class="">
</span></p><p class=""><span style="font-family:calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14pt" class="">I find it difficult to follow. I added some comments and questions?</span></p><p class=""><span style="font-family:calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14pt" class=""><br class="">
</span></p><p class=""><span style="font-family:calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14pt" class="">Best,</span></p><p class=""><span style="font-family:calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14pt" class="">Loet</span></p><p class=""><span style="font-family:calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14pt" class=""> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p>
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<td style="padding:0in 5.4pt;border:1pt solid windowtext;width:281.25pt" width="375" valign="top" class=""><p style="text-align:center" align="center" class=""><b class="">1. Information is a primary concept</b><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
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<td style="border-width:1pt 1pt 1pt medium;border-style:solid solid solid none;border-color:windowtext windowtext windowtext currentcolor;padding:0in 5.4pt;width:319.5pt" width="426" valign="top" class=""><p style="text-align:center" align="center" class=""><b class="">2. Information is a secondary concept</b><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
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<td style="border-width:medium 1pt 1pt;border-style:none solid solid;border-color:currentcolor windowtext windowtext;padding:0in 5.4pt;width:281.25pt" width="375" valign="top" class=""><p class="">1. Information <font color="#ff0000" class="">can be considered</font> as information, neither matter nor energy.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class=""><font color="#ff0000" class="">Matter is expressed as mass (e.g. kilograms). Energy in Watts; information in dimensionless bits.
</font><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
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<td style="border-width:medium 1pt 1pt medium;border-style:none solid solid none;border-color:currentcolor windowtext windowtext currentcolor;padding:0in 5.4pt;width:319.5pt" width="426" valign="top" class=""><p class="">1. Information is a class of reflections in material entities. Not every reflection is information.
<b class=""><i class="">Only </i></b><b class=""><i class=""><span style="color:red" class="">subjectively comprehended </span>
</i></b><b class=""><i class="">reflections are information. Not comprehended reflections are data.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></i></b></p><p class=""><b class=""><font color="#ff0000" class="">Why subjectively? Why “data” instead of information.</font><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></b></p><p class=""><b class=""><font color="#ff0000" class=""><br class="">
</font></b></p><p class=""><b class=""><font color="#ff0000" class="">It seems that there can be mutual information between information and reflections? -:)</font></b></p>
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<td style="border-width:medium 1pt 1pt;border-style:none solid solid;border-color:currentcolor windowtext windowtext;padding:0in 5.4pt;width:281.25pt" width="375" valign="top" class=""><p class="">2. Information is <span style="color:red" class="">comprehended </span>
into structures, patterns, messages, or flows. <font color="#ff0000" class="">What do you mean with “comprehended”? Who is comprehending?</font><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
</td>
<td style="border-width:medium 1pt 1pt medium;border-style:none solid solid none;border-color:currentcolor windowtext windowtext currentcolor;padding:0in 5.4pt;width:319.5pt" width="426" valign="top" class=""><p class="">2. Reflections may be comprehended as structures, patterns, messages, flows, etc.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class=""><font color="#ff0000" class="">What is reflected by whom </font><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class=""><font color="#ff0000" class="">Or is this universally the case? </font>
</p>
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<td style="border-width:medium 1pt 1pt;border-style:none solid solid;border-color:currentcolor windowtext windowtext;padding:0in 5.4pt;width:281.25pt" width="375" valign="top" class=""><p class="">3. Information can be recognized, can be measured, and can be processed (either computationally or non-computationally).<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
</td>
<td style="border-width:medium 1pt 1pt medium;border-style:none solid solid none;border-color:currentcolor windowtext windowtext currentcolor;padding:0in 5.4pt;width:319.5pt" width="426" valign="top" class=""><p class="">3. Reflections can be recognized, can be measured—<font color="#ff0000" class="">what is the dimensionality</font>? How can it be measured? , and can be processed (either computationally or non-computationally).<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class=""><font color="#ff0000" class="">The measurement is not clear. </font>
<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
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<td style="border-width:medium 1pt 1pt;border-style:none solid solid;border-color:currentcolor windowtext windowtext;padding:0in 5.4pt;width:281.25pt" width="375" valign="top" class=""><p class="">4. <span style="color:red" class="">Information </span>(i<font color="#ff0000" class="">t seems to me that these are entropy and energy flows</font>) flows are essential organizers of life's self-production processes--anticipating, shaping, and
<span style="color:red" class="">mixing </span>up (vague) with the accompanying energy flows.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
</td>
<td style="border-width:medium 1pt 1pt medium;border-style:none solid solid none;border-color:currentcolor windowtext windowtext currentcolor;padding:0in 5.4pt;width:319.5pt" width="426" valign="top" class=""><p class="">4. Reflection flows are essential organizers of life's self-production processes--anticipating, shaping, and mixing up with the accompanying energy flows.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
</td>
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<td style="border-width:medium 1pt 1pt;border-style:none solid solid;border-color:currentcolor windowtext windowtext;padding:0in 5.4pt;width:281.25pt" width="375" valign="top" class=""><p class="">5. Communication/information exchanges among adaptive life-cycles underlie the complexity of biological organizations at all scales.<span style="color:red" class="">Perhaps even beyond biology.</span><span style="color:red" class=""><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p>
</td>
<td style="border-width:medium 1pt 1pt medium;border-style:none solid solid none;border-color:currentcolor windowtext windowtext currentcolor;padding:0in 5.4pt;width:319.5pt" width="426" valign="top" class=""><p class="">5. Communication is based on special kind of reflections created by one entity and reflected by a second one. This way, the reflections comprehended as information by the first entity may be secondary reflected by the second one. Such
information exchanges among adaptive life-cycles underlie the complexity of biological organizations at all scales.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
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</span></div><p class=""><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-size:10pt" class="">Loet Leydesdorff
<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><p class=""><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-size:10pt" class="">Professor emeritus, University of Amsterdam<br class="">
Amsterdam School of Communication Research (ASCoR)<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><p class=""><span style="color:rgb(68,84,106)" class=""><a title="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net" href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net" target="_blank" class=""><span style="font-size:10pt" class="">loet@leydesdorff.net
</span></a></span><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-size:10pt" class="">; </span><span style="color:rgb(68,84,106)" class=""><a title="http://www.leydesdorff.net/" href="https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.leydesdorff.net%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9ed9231ac5754f5cc60708d81bf3c63d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637290081095218079&sdata=KBxwc%2FM03zZsF04WqLwUgPMrH%2Bu4KJDx%2BuAB3XewEvY%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank" class=""><span style="font-size:10pt" class="">http://www.leydesdorff.net/</span></a></span><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-size:10pt" class="">
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</span><span style="font-size:9pt" class="">Associate Faculty, </span><span style="color:rgb(68,84,106)" class=""><a href="https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sussex.ac.uk%2Fspru%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9ed9231ac5754f5cc60708d81bf3c63d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637290081095218079&sdata=vgSNs2pJulrxagvcntFEjzVOdo7j%2FZMpHjJ1L%2FTP56M%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank" class=""><span style="font-size:9pt" class="">SPRU,
</span></a></span><span style="font-size:9pt" class="">University of Sussex; <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><p class=""><span style="font-size:9pt" class="">Guest Professor </span><span style="color:rgb(68,84,106)" class=""><a href="https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.zju.edu.cn%2Fenglish%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9ed9231ac5754f5cc60708d81bf3c63d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637290081095228108&sdata=erHrvOA7CTnZsU3%2Ft6BaJ96LHUm4Dga5BRA3CKl0qgU%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank" class=""><span style="font-size:9pt" class="">Zhejiang
Univ.</span></a></span><span style="font-size:9pt" class="">, Hangzhou; Visiting Professor,
</span><span style="color:rgb(68,84,106)" class=""><a href="https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.istic.ac.cn%2FEng%2Fbrief_en.html&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9ed9231ac5754f5cc60708d81bf3c63d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637290081095228108&sdata=qJLY458Y4JHe%2FPcYQi0nFW1%2BzjvBrsMefoELWQkyTFs%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank" class=""><span style="font-size:9pt" class="">ISTIC,
</span></a></span><span style="font-size:9pt" class="">Beijing;<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><p class=""><span style="font-size:9pt" class="">Visiting Fellow, </span><span style="color:rgb(68,84,106)" class=""><a href="https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbk.ac.uk%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9ed9231ac5754f5cc60708d81bf3c63d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637290081095238071&sdata=4qwmKIUY2aMDe16BU%2FDBOFb188A%2FeNwrIEtm%2Byz8GhU%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank" class=""><span style="font-size:9pt" class="">Birkbeck</span></a></span><span style="font-size:9pt" class="">,
University of London; <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p>
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<div class=""> </div>
<div class="">------ Original Message ------</div>
<div class="">From: "Krassimir Markov" <<a href="mailto:markov@foibg.com" target="_blank" class="">markov@foibg.com</a>></div>
<div class="">To: "FIS" <<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" class="">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>></div>
<div class="">Sent: 6/28/2020 3:46:22 PM</div>
<div class="">Subject: [Fis] 10 Principles</div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div id="gmail-m_-587081846135171868gmail-m_-5266444246125439114gmail-m_1567366477997339807x_m_7434984660882881271xec4b8951bbb140d" class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
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<div style="font-family:Calibri;font-size:14pt" class="">
<div class=""><font size="4" class=""></font> </div>
<div class=""><font size="4" class="">Dear Marcus and FIS Colleagues,<br class="">
</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" class="">From my point of view the main choice which has to be made in the very beginning is between two opposite cases:</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" class="">1. <b class="">Information is a primary concept</b></font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" class=""><b class="">2. </b><b class="">Information is a secondary concept</b></font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" class="">This is fundamental choice which cause all further work.</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" class=""><br class="">
As I already had pointed, if information is a primary concept than no theories about information can be created. One may create many other theories for EVERYTHING but not for information. Only infinite variety of examples may be created but not fruitful theory
and discussions. For instance, the religious approach belong to this class.</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" class=""><br class="">
The second case gives us possibility to create theories ABOUT information starting from one or more other primary concepts.</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" class="">I prefer the second case. The primary concepts I have used are Entity and Relationship (<a title="http://www.foibg.com/ijita/vol14/ijita14-1-p01.pdf" href="https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.foibg.com%2Fijita%2Fvol14%2Fijita14-1-p01.pdf&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9ed9231ac5754f5cc60708d81bf3c63d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637290081095248062&sdata=CeXWCgoqHNTUcDRzwkcjL8Dc4KOtJ2VwnX5U4r27kOo%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank" class="">http://www.foibg.com/ijita/vol14/ijita14-1-p01.pdf</a>),
and Reflection as a result of interaction between entities.<br class="">
<br class="">
To illustrate the difference between two cases, let see the first 5 principles of Pedro in the two variants:
</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" class=""></font> </div>
<div class=""><font size="4" class=""></font> </div>
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<b class=""><font face="Times New Roman" class="">1. Information is a primary concept</font></b></p>
</td>
<td style="border-width:1pt 1pt 1pt medium;border-style:solid solid solid none;border-color:windowtext windowtext windowtext currentcolor;padding:0cm 5.4pt" width="426" valign="top" class=""><p style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:normal" align="center" class="">
<b class=""><font face="Times New Roman" class="">2. Information is a secondary concept</font></b></p>
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<td style="border-width:medium 1pt 1pt;border-style:none solid solid;border-color:currentcolor windowtext windowtext;padding:0cm 5.4pt" width="375" valign="top" class=""><p style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:normal" class=""><font face="Times New Roman" class="">1. Information is information, neither matter nor energy.</font></p>
</td>
<td style="border-width:medium 1pt 1pt medium;border-style:none solid solid none;border-color:currentcolor windowtext windowtext currentcolor;padding:0cm 5.4pt" width="426" valign="top" class=""><p style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:normal" class=""><font face="Times New Roman" class="">1. Information is a class of reflections in material entities. Not every reflection is information.
<b class=""><i class="">Only subjectively comprehended reflections are information. Not comprehended reflections are data.</i></b></font></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr class="">
<td style="border-width:medium 1pt 1pt;border-style:none solid solid;border-color:currentcolor windowtext windowtext;padding:0cm 5.4pt" width="375" valign="top" class=""><p style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:normal" class=""><font face="Times New Roman" class="">2. Information is comprehended into structures, patterns, messages, or flows.</font></p>
</td>
<td style="border-width:medium 1pt 1pt medium;border-style:none solid solid none;border-color:currentcolor windowtext windowtext currentcolor;padding:0cm 5.4pt" width="426" valign="top" class=""><p style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:normal" class=""><font face="Times New Roman" class="">2. Reflections may be comprehended as structures, patterns, messages, flows, etc.</font></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr class="">
<td style="border-width:medium 1pt 1pt;border-style:none solid solid;border-color:currentcolor windowtext windowtext;padding:0cm 5.4pt" width="375" valign="top" class=""><p style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:normal" class=""><font face="Times New Roman" class="">3. Information can be recognized, can be measured, and can be processed (either computationally or non-computationally).</font></p>
</td>
<td style="border-width:medium 1pt 1pt medium;border-style:none solid solid none;border-color:currentcolor windowtext windowtext currentcolor;padding:0cm 5.4pt" width="426" valign="top" class=""><p style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:normal" class=""><font face="Times New Roman" class="">3. Reflections can be recognized, can be measured, and can be processed (either computationally or non-computationally).</font></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr class="">
<td style="border-width:medium 1pt 1pt;border-style:none solid solid;border-color:currentcolor windowtext windowtext;padding:0cm 5.4pt" width="375" valign="top" class=""><p style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:normal" class=""><font face="Times New Roman" class="">4. Information flows are essential organizers of life's self-production processes--anticipating, shaping, and mixing up with the accompanying energy flows.</font></p>
</td>
<td style="border-width:medium 1pt 1pt medium;border-style:none solid solid none;border-color:currentcolor windowtext windowtext currentcolor;padding:0cm 5.4pt" width="426" valign="top" class=""><p style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:normal" class=""><font face="Times New Roman" class="">4. Reflection flows are essential organizers of life's self-production processes--anticipating, shaping, and mixing up with the accompanying energy flows.</font></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr class="">
<td style="border-width:medium 1pt 1pt;border-style:none solid solid;border-color:currentcolor windowtext windowtext;padding:0cm 5.4pt" width="375" valign="top" class=""><p style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:normal" class=""><font face="Times New Roman" class="">5. Communication/information exchanges among adaptive life-cycles underlie the complexity of biological organizations at all scales.</font></p>
</td>
<td style="border-width:medium 1pt 1pt medium;border-style:none solid solid none;border-color:currentcolor windowtext windowtext currentcolor;padding:0cm 5.4pt" width="426" valign="top" class=""><p style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:normal" class=""><font face="Times New Roman" class="">5. Communication is based on special kind of reflections created by one entity and reflected by a second one. This way, the reflections comprehended as information
by the first entity may be secondary reflected by the second one. Such information exchanges among adaptive life-cycles underlie the complexity of biological organizations at all scales.</font></p>
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</tbody>
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<div class=""> </div>
<div class=""><font size="4" class="">I am afraid that many of FIS members prefer the first case. <br class="">
I do not know who prefer the second one beside me. If such ones exist, please write to me and we will continue the productive common work.
</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" class=""></font> </div>
<div class=""><font size="4" class="">Friendly greetings</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" class="">Krassimir</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" class=""></font> </div>
<div class=""><font size="4" class=""></font> </div>
<div class=""><font size="4" class=""></font> </div>
<div class=""><font size="4" class=""></font> </div>
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</span></div><p class=""><span style="font-size:10pt" class="">Loet Leydesdorff </span></p><p class=""><span style="font-size:10pt" class="">Professor, University of Amsterdam<br class="">
Amsterdam School of Communications Research (ASCoR)<br class="">
Kloveniersburgwal 48, 1012 CX Amsterdam.<br class="">
Tel. +31-20-525 6598; fax: +31-842239111</span></p><p style="margin-bottom:12pt" class=""><span style="font-size:7.5pt" class=""><a title="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net" href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net" target="_blank" class=""><span style="font-size:10pt" class="">loet@leydesdorff.net
</span></a></span><span style="font-size:10pt" class="">; </span><span style="font-size:7.5pt" class=""><a title="http://www.leydesdorff.net/" href="https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.leydesdorff.net%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9ed9231ac5754f5cc60708d81bf3c63d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637290081095248062&sdata=aipvWtpDLFWYeuuZQj%2BzPwjJzA0qeVpd08kTNFb%2BKI0%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank" class=""><span style="font-size:10pt" class="">http://www.leydesdorff.net/</span></a></span><span style="font-size:10pt" class="">
<br class="">
</span><span style="font-size:9pt" class="">Visiting Professor, </span><span style="color:blue;font-size:9pt" class=""><a href="https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.istic.ac.cn%2FEng%2Fbrief_en.html&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9ed9231ac5754f5cc60708d81bf3c63d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637290081095258055&sdata=et0L30pNzbUr%2BCPRV7eAJ3ElkRtsvJwxEtDEelw9M3E%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank" class="">ISTIC,
</a></span><span style="font-size:9pt" class="">Beijing; Honorary Professor, </span><span style="color:blue;font-size:9pt" class=""><a href="https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sussex.ac.uk%2Fspru%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9ed9231ac5754f5cc60708d81bf3c63d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637290081095258055&sdata=6b4wlkoi5HtndqagmaxGnCQASM3UHkDAjDTEFlkHSSM%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank" class="">SPRU,
</a></span><span style="font-size:9pt" class="">University of Sussex; <a href="https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fscholar.google.com%2Fcitations%3Fuser%3Dych9gNYAAAAJ%26hl%3Den&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9ed9231ac5754f5cc60708d81bf3c63d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637290081095268049&sdata=%2FYt9%2BAyGNRg6leU215b84P%2BIAU3CKjhIPpbJxYk11Kc%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank" class="">
http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en</a><span class=""> </span><br class="">
</span><span style="font-size:10pt" class=""></span></p>
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Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: <a href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a><br class="">
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</blockquote></div><br clear="all" class=""><br class="">-- <br class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class="">Jaime F. Cárdenas-García, PhD, PE</div><div class=""><a href="mailto:JFCardenasGarcia@gmail.com" target="_blank" class="">JFCardenasGarcia@gmail.com</a></div><div class="">(240) 498-7556 (cell)<br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
_______________________________________________<br class="">Fis mailing list<br class=""><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" class="">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br class=""><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" target="_blank" class="">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><br class="">----------<br class="">INFORMACI�N SOBRE PROTECCI�N DE DATOS DE CAR�CTER PERSONAL<br class=""><br class="">Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.<br class="">Puede encontrar toda la informaci�n sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: <a href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas" target="_blank" class="">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a><br class="">Recuerde que si est� suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicaci�n en el momento en que lo desee.<br class=""><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/" target="_blank" class="">http://listas.unizar.es</a><br class="">----------<br class=""></blockquote></div><br class=""></div></div>_______________________________________________<br class="">
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<br class="">
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.<br class="">
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: <a href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a><br class="">
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</blockquote></div><br clear="all" class=""><br class="">-- <br class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class="">Jaime F. Cárdenas-García, PhD, PE</div><div class=""><a href="mailto:JFCardenasGarcia@gmail.com" target="_blank" class="">JFCardenasGarcia@gmail.com</a></div><div class="">(240) 498-7556 (cell)<br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
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----------<br class="">
INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL<br class="">
<br class="">
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.<br class="">
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: <a href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a><br class="">
Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.<br class="">
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