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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Dear Mark,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">There are many people in this list much more capable of answering your questions.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">I try it, in my simple-minded way. Here is my attempt, and my last post for this week.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">All the best<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Gordana<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From: </span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Fis <fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es> on behalf of Mark Johnson <johnsonmwj1@gmail.com><br>
<b>Date: </b>Monday, 30 March 2020 at 22:34<br>
<b>To: </b>fis <fis@listas.unizar.es><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Fis] whether this useful simulation is information, data or something else?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Hi Gordana and Krassimir, <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">This was the essence of my earlier question. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">If simulation is a "tool", where do we separate the tool from the information? <o:p></o:p></p>
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<li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">Tool is also information. How do we know which is the information produced by the tool, and which is the tool itself?<o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">I would say the output of the program/the tool may be a set of data, or information or a piece of knowledge (for us, we are always as cognitive agents a part of the process).
We are also made of atoms and we study atoms. We are made of cells and we study cells. It is usually possible to make distinction between our tools, our objects and ourselves.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Language, for example, can be considered as a tool for communication. Is the information in the words, or are the words part of the tool?<o:p></o:p></p>
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<li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">Both, and here as well an agent (typically living being) is using language as communication tool to generate information
(for an itself, an agent!).<o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">When we look at language as implemented in the physical world (in sounds, signs etc.) it presents source of information for us. We say we get information when someone tells
us something new. Or even if someone repeats what we know, even then we generate information. Such as: this person is repeating this sentence.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">We may, like Maturana, reach the conclusion that there is no information. There is a process involving "structural coupling" between living systems which he calls "languaging". But no "information stuff". <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">But Maturana only seems to have half the story too. Because within the "consensual domain" there must be a coordination of expectations, and that must depend on anticipation. So time is absolutely tied up in the process. What do we think
time is? <span lang="EN-US">Is it real or imaginary?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">Some think ”time is memory”
<a href="https://www.nwo.nl/en/research-and-results/research-projects/i/80/12180.html">
<span style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">https://www.nwo.nl/en/research-and-results/research-projects/i/80/12180.html</span></a> <o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">and it sounds like an interesting thought.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">Can one talk of information without time?
</span>No. Can one talk of time without information? I doubt it. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">I agree<o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">This is what fascinates me about agent-based simulations. You say that it's empirical. What do we mean when we say that? That its discarding of information about the world conforms to ways in which we are comfortable to discard information
about our realities? This would be another way of reading Hume's basic thesis on empiricism concerning regular successions of events. Empirical regularities coordinate expectations by discarding information, don't they?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">Yes and I think even here we must close the loop in a cognizing agent. Simulations make sense for us. As we have a memory,
and capacity to reason, compare patterns, anticipate, etc. We are active in relation to simulation.
<o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Best wishes<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Mark<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Mon, 30 Mar 2020, 20:39 Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic, <<a href="mailto:gordana.dodig-crnkovic@mdh.se">gordana.dodig-crnkovic@mdh.se</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">Dear Krassimir,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">I apologize for missing your mail. It is quite chaotic these days.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">Not sure if I understand the question.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">Is it whether simulation is information, data or something else (I assume knowledge)?
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">Simulation is a tool that can be used to produce data, information and knowledge.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">Simulation among can be seen as replacement for/equivalent to experiment.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">In the same way as you can use experiment to generate data, information or knowledge, you can use simulation*.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">Best wishes,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">Gordana</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">*See for example:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">F. Guala, “Models, simulations, and experiments,” in Model-Based Reasoning: Science, Technology, Values, L. Magnani and
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">M. Morgan and M. Morrison, “Models as mediating instruments,” in Models as Mediating. Perspectives on Natural and Social
Sciences, M. Morgan, M. Morrison, </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">M. Morgan, “Experiments without material intervention,” in The philosophy of scientific experimentation, H.Radder,Ed.
University of Pittsburgh Press, 2003. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">——, “Experiments versus models: New phenomena, inference and surprise.” Journal of Economic Methodology, vol. 12: 2, pp.
317–329, 2005. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif">M. Morrison, “Models, measurement and computer simulation: the changing face of experimentation,” Philosophical Studies,
vol. 143,pp. 33–47, 2009. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From:
</span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Fis <<a href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es</a>> on behalf of Krassimir Markov <<a href="mailto:markov@foibg.com" target="_blank">markov@foibg.com</a>><br>
<b>Organisation: </b>ITHEA<br>
<b>Reply to: </b>Krassimir Markov <<a href="mailto:markov@foibg.com" target="_blank">markov@foibg.com</a>><br>
<b>Date: </b>Monday, 30 March 2020 at 14:11<br>
<b>To: </b>"<a href="mailto:annette.grathoff@is4si.org" target="_blank">annette.grathoff@is4si.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:annette.grathoff@is4si.org" target="_blank">annette.grathoff@is4si.org</a>>, "<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>"
<<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>><br>
<b>Subject: </b>[Fis] whether this useful simulation is information, data or something else?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;color:black">Dear Annette and FIS Colleagues,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;color:black">The following question I had sent to Gordana offline due to the FIS limit of number of posts per week.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;color:black">I see it is still actual, so I resend it now.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;color:black">In line with the FIS discussion, I would kindly ask you to tell, in your view, whether this useful simulation is information, data or
something else?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;color:black">Be healthy and in good spirit!</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;color:black">Friendly greetings</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;color:black">Krassimir</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black">
<a href="mailto:annette.grathoff@is4si.org" target="_blank" title="annette.grathoff@is4si.org">
annette.grathoff@is4si.org</a> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black">Sent:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"> Monday, March 30, 2020 12:46 PM</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black">To:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black">
<a href="mailto:gordana.dodig-crnkovic@mdh.se" target="_blank" title="gordana.dodig-crnkovic@mdh.se">
gordana.dodig-crnkovic@mdh.se</a> ; <a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" title="fis@listas.unizar.es">
fis@listas.unizar.es</a> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black">Subject:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"> Re: [Fis] Excellent simulation</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Dear colleagues,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Grant Sanderson (3blue1brown) did it again. Please do not tell me you never heard of him and his excellent YouTube science-knowledge visualization videos! He changed the interest of thousands of people for abstract
mathematical ideas, making them concrete and more tangible by his excellent simulation videos. He originally came from the Khan Academy team as you can read here:
<a href="https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2F3Blue1Brown&data=02%7C01%7Cgordana.dodig-crnkovic%40mdh.se%7C11f4e96f9e204dca41c608d7d4e9bd29%7Ca1795b64dabd4758b988b309292316cf%7C0%7C0%7C637211972677574775&sdata=S44XvtCZtSKRU%2BlwOeADCJi3Ht9cAbi9EeWru%2BUTcX4%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3Blue1Brown</a>.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">This I say as Annette Grathoff, not as the General secretary: My personal opinion is that every scientist interested in informing curious people and raising interest in scientific knowledge should know his videos.
This is how information about important concepts is enabled to spread many times faster than when relying solely on the classical ways. It does science well to spread channels like his, after you (not only) scientifically approved of the content.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Best wishes and stay healthy,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Annette</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic wrote on 29.03.2020 12:17 (GMT +02:00):</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif;color:black">Dear colleagues,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif;color:black">Please have a look at this excellent simulation:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Avenir Book",serif;color:black"><a href="https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DgxAaO2rsdIs%26feature%3Dyoutu.be&data=02%7C01%7Cgordana.dodig-crnkovic%40mdh.se%7C11f4e96f9e204dca41c608d7d4e9bd29%7Ca1795b64dabd4758b988b309292316cf%7C0%7C0%7C637211972677584768&sdata=enzZPcpW1%2BgJOOcCFECCSxB5PXMG%2Fda4UwKXOMCu2WY%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank"><span lang="EN-US">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxAaO2rsdIs&feature=youtu.be</span></a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif;color:black">which makes me think about how powerful thinking tools<br>
that computation and information/data really offer.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif;color:black">Stay safe and take care,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book",serif;color:black">Gordana</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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