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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Dear Christophe, Stan<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">I agree about information as connected with life, and about the necessity of evolutionary perspective.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Also, about Stans:
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book";color:black">(constraint {information {meaning}}} <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book";color:black">with explication: for an agent.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">There is one more step in this process – when living beings on some level of evolution (like humans) become capable of using information to model nature in
terms of information (von Weizsäcker, Wheeler, Shannon, Wiener, von Foerster and others).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">It is a new step, where living beings
<i>reflect</i> over how we are using information, not only <i>use</i> information automatically for direct survival as bacteria do.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">In this step the structure becomes self-reflective:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book";color:black">(constraint {information {</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book";color:black">meaning (constraint {information {meaning {… } }}} }}} (for an agent)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book";color:black">Information plays a different role for intelligent agents with ability to model their
</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book";color:black">own “self” internally (as those who have a nervous system).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book";color:black">It was an attempt to propose naturalization of information while informationalizing nature.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">All the best,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Gordana<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From: </span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Fis <fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es> on behalf of Stanley N Salthe <ssalthe@binghamton.edu><br>
<b>Date: </b>Friday, 6 March 2020 at 17:02<br>
<b>To: </b>Christophe Menant <christophe.menant@hotmail.fr>, fis <fis@listas.unizar.es><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Fis] [External Email] defining information - On relating definitions of information<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Christophe, all -- <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Here is a subsumptive hierarchy that I think covers much of what has been written so far in fis:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">(constraint {information {meaning}}}<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">STAN<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, Mar 6, 2020 at 9:42 AM Christophe Menant <<a href="mailto:christophe.menant@hotmail.fr">christophe.menant@hotmail.fr</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Dear Gordana, </span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Thanks for highlighting the agentivity I implicitly refer to. <br>
An evolutionary perspective can bring some details. <br>
Putting aside any possible finality of our universe, we can say that information came up with life in the evolution of our universe. <br>
Before that, only ubiquist laws were guiding the universe. No information was present. It is only when a local <span style="border:none windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm;background:white">"maintain status" constraint </span>came up, applying to a local far from
thermodynamic equilibrium, that information and agency came in </span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">(<a href="https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fphilpapers.org%2Frec%2FMENICA-2&data=02%7C01%7Cgordana.dodig-crnkovic%40mdh.se%7Cb34028898ad84ddfdd7408d7c1e7b688%7Ca1795b64dabd4758b988b309292316cf%7C0%7C0%7C637191073248722546&sdata=rMjpOAiB%2FS8BQg81zyd8k8g2eZ8bFKwSJ5jaTbuem50%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">https://philpapers.org/rec/MENICA-2</a>). <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">This positions local constraints as the source of agency, information and meaning. In an evolutionary perspective it looks difficult to talk about information
without talking about agency. And the evolution of local constraints can characterize the evolution of our universe where management of information by humans is only a recent event (this to put into context the focus on human management of information). <br>
</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Best<br>
Christophe</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:black">De :</span></b><span style="color:black"> Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic <<a href="mailto:gordana.dodig-crnkovic@mdh.se" target="_blank">gordana.dodig-crnkovic@mdh.se</a>><br>
<b>Envoyé :</b> vendredi 6 mars 2020 12:37<br>
<b>À :</b> fis <<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>><br>
<b>Cc :</b> Lars-Göran Johansson <<a href="mailto:Lars-Goran.Johansson@filosofi.uu.se" target="_blank">Lars-Goran.Johansson@filosofi.uu.se</a>>; Christophe Menant <<a href="mailto:christophe.menant@hotmail.fr" target="_blank">christophe.menant@hotmail.fr</a>><br>
<b>Objet :</b> Re: [Fis] [External Email] defining information - On relating definitions of information</span>
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book"">Dear colleagues</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book"">Just a short comment on the current discussion, regarding
<i>physics of information</i>:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book"">Here is an interview that might be of interest:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book""><a href="https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DQfQ2r0zvyoA&data=02%7C01%7Cgordana.dodig-crnkovic%40mdh.se%7Cb34028898ad84ddfdd7408d7c1e7b688%7Ca1795b64dabd4758b988b309292316cf%7C0%7C0%7C637191073248732539&sdata=RlX0NtTFasVQDyVJf6ziaBI1aky6yMmUQDjIsm2jdO8%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfQ2r0zvyoA</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book"">and special issue of
</span><span style="font-family:"Avenir Book""><a href="https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mdpi.com%2Fjournal%2Finformation&data=02%7C01%7Cgordana.dodig-crnkovic%40mdh.se%7Cb34028898ad84ddfdd7408d7c1e7b688%7Ca1795b64dabd4758b988b309292316cf%7C0%7C0%7C637191073248732539&sdata=t%2FDHd0PrerChM8MEOuDlUw5alBqANaYCek1OhubI2e0%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank"><span lang="EN-US">Information</span></a></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book"">
(2012) on "<i>Information and Energy/Matter</i>". 3(4), 751-755. doi:10.3390/info3040751<br>
</span><span style="font-family:"Avenir Book""><a href="https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mdpi.com%2Fjournal%2Finformation%2Fspecial_issues%2Fmatter&data=02%7C01%7Cgordana.dodig-crnkovic%40mdh.se%7Cb34028898ad84ddfdd7408d7c1e7b688%7Ca1795b64dabd4758b988b309292316cf%7C0%7C0%7C637191073248742534&sdata=I%2BYB2je%2FyCG6YJ%2BcCw4U9AftJJqA1dubNwvNJ6g%2BSm8%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank"><span lang="EN-US">http://www.mdpi.com/journal/information/special_issues/matter</span></a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book"">Measurement is only one part of physics, and it is essential that fundamental units are few and commonly shared</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book""><a href="https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FSI_base_unit&data=02%7C01%7Cgordana.dodig-crnkovic%40mdh.se%7Cb34028898ad84ddfdd7408d7c1e7b688%7Ca1795b64dabd4758b988b309292316cf%7C0%7C0%7C637191073248742534&sdata=%2FX12%2BGCh6VOb8mjVVwI5QoFmjCZs2quCl75LPpm%2FC7c%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SI_base_unit</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book"">But meaning of it all comes from the interaction of a human (agent) and the physical world outside, thus bringing into picture much more than mapping of observations
into suitable units.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book"">Agency can be as simple thing as ability to act, and I believe Christophe talks about cognitive agency which is the property of living. Beings and cognitive artifacts,
and it can be expressed in terms of agency of inanimate physical-chemical objects that those cognitive agents are made of.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book"">Information can be as simple or as complex notion as you can imagine, but this comes with a cost – either we see no detail, or we don’t see a big picture. Or we
don’t see the dynamics of it etc. What we might want, is not so much to vote for the best definition of information but instead to understand how those different definitions relate to each other, and what makes people call them information. The same goes for
energy, life, cognition or any other fundamental idea that we discuss.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book"">All the best,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book"">Gordana</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Avenir Book""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From:
</span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Fis <<a href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es</a>> on behalf of Lars-Göran Johansson <<a href="mailto:Lars-Goran.Johansson@filosofi.uu.se" target="_blank">Lars-Goran.Johansson@filosofi.uu.se</a>><br>
<b>Date: </b>Friday, 6 March 2020 at 11:57<br>
<b>To: </b>Christophe Menant <<a href="mailto:christophe.menant@hotmail.fr" target="_blank">christophe.menant@hotmail.fr</a>><br>
<b>Cc: </b>fis <<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Fis] [External Email] Re: defining information</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt">Lars-Göran Johansson<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><a href="mailto:lars-goran.johansson@filosofi.uu.se" target="_blank">lars-goran.johansson@filosofi.uu.se</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt">6 mars 2020 kl. 11:37 skrev Christophe Menant <<a href="mailto:christophe.menant@hotmail.fr" target="_blank">christophe.menant@hotmail.fr</a>>:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">It is indeed difficult to define information as it applies to many different things. But these different things have in common to be
agents, and agency may be a “key feature” of information. Take away the agent, information does not exist, has no reason of being. <br>
And the reason of being of information is its meaning for the agent. Information exists only by its meaning for the agent which uses it to satisfy its constraints.<br>
The agent can then be looked at as “an identifiable entity submitted to internal constraints and capable of actions for the satisfaction of the constraints” (see para 3.2.3 in<a href="https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fphilpapers.org%2Frec%2FMENCSA-2&data=02%7C01%7Cgordana.dodig-crnkovic%40mdh.se%7Cb34028898ad84ddfdd7408d7c1e7b688%7Ca1795b64dabd4758b988b309292316cf%7C0%7C0%7C637191073248752528&sdata=iJct%2BSfpgEYWz23xBdLEV7Pq29DsUQmo%2BREaf39rKVw%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">https://philpapers.org/rec/MENCSA-2</a>). <br>
This would bring to a definition of information like “energy variation which leads an agent to generate meanings to satisfy its constraints” (looks like a rewording of “a difference that makes a difference"….) <br>
Best<br>
Christophe</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt">Using the term ’agent’ in the definition of information just highlights Wittgenstein’s point. What is the common characteristics for all things called ’agents’? And ’generate meanings’? What is that?<o:p></o:p></p>
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Lars-Göran<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><b>De :</b> Fis <<a href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es</a>> de la part de Loet Leydesdorff <<a href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net" target="_blank">loet@leydesdorff.net</a>><br>
<b>Envoyé :</b> vendredi 6 mars 2020 07:47<br>
<b>À :</b> João Alvaro Carvalho <<a href="mailto:jac@dsi.uminho.pt" target="_blank">jac@dsi.uminho.pt</a>>; fis <<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>><br>
<b>Objet :</b> Re: [Fis] [External Email] Re: defining information<span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">
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<p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">I gave up looking for an unifying definition of information.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">As soon I switch to another context (for example, moving from the context of organisational work to the human mind or to the cell) the key features are different.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">This problem is precisely a reason to stick to a content-free, i.e., mathematical definition of information. Information can then further be made relevant in any
special theory. The application is not dimension-free. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">Best,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">Loet</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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