<div dir="ltr"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 6pt;text-align:justify;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span lang="EN-GB">Dear Joseph,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 6pt;text-align:justify;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span lang="EN-GB">No need to apologize, I understand we are
in the give and take of an academic discussion, with all that it entails.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 6pt;text-align:justify;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span lang="EN-GB">You state: I only wished to point that the
behavior of animals who rob the nests of another species is genetically
programmed. This cannot be compared directly to that of human beings unless the
latter have regressed to the level of such apparently selfish species. We
certainly can take the behavior of social, altruistic species such as ants as
models, but that is all.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 6pt;text-align:justify;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span lang="EN-GB">Though it is generally accepted that there
is much that is genetically programmed, I disagree with this premise on at
least two counts: one, the inclusion of information in the genome is a
hypothesis. If we can agree on a definition of information then it might be possible
to ascribe information to the genome. Until then, IMHO it is an open question. Second,
if these nest robber animals do so because of their genetic programming, how
are we different? How do we recognize where our genetic programming ends, and our
“recursive levels of cognitive processing” begins? Notice that the word “selfish”
and “altruistic” enters in the conversation, to label animal behaviour. As I suggested
before, we are in no position to anthropomorphize animal behaviour.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 6pt;text-align:justify;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span lang="EN-GB">What I wanted to get across with my comment
on “minimal cognition” is that it seems erroneous to talk about minimal
cognition. Either there is cognition or there isn’t. It is relative to the Organism-in-its-Environment
under consideration. It follows the principle of “</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:black;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial">Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not
simpler.”</span><span lang="EN-GB"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 6pt;text-align:justify;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span lang="EN-GB">I agree that optimism should be part of the
make-up of any academic researcher, so we always have to put our best foot
forward. As to the comments related to the state the wealth of the 1% of our
world, though it might seem neo-Marxist, it just expresses what everyone knows
and is published on the front pages of most accepted (fake/disinformation/misinformation)
news outlets. </span><span lang="EN-GB" style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial">Thomas Piketty</span><span lang="EN-GB"> is
also a recent example of a mine canary to this phenomenon. As to suggested
studies, it is not difficult to find relevant topics: how is it that the USA is
the only developed country in the world that does not have universal health
care and Brexit Britain may wake up one day to the sound of little or no social
net? Though views are changing, universal health care in the USA is viewed as a
burden that tax payers (the 1% hardly pay any taxes, instead using their money
to pay for their best health care in the world) should not have to bear in a
country where most bankruptcies are due to health issues. How to explain such
examples of Stockholm syndrome? Does entrenched and pernicious self-interest as
the source of disinformation/misinformation come to mind?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 6pt;text-align:justify;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span lang="EN-GB">Kind regards,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 6pt;text-align:justify;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span lang="EN-GB">Jaime</span></p></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Nov 28, 2019 at 3:13 AM Joseph Brenner <<a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<u></u>
<div lang="FR">
<div class="gmail-m_5596040705657879902Section1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";color:navy">Dear
Jaime,<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";color:navy"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";color:navy">I apologize for the appearance of a personal criticism, when none
was intended. I only wished to point that the behavior of animals who rob the
nests of another species is genetically programmed. This cannot be compared
directly to that of human beings unless the latter have regressed to the level
of such apparently selfish species. We certainly can take the behavior of
social, altruistic species such as ants as models, but that is all.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";color:navy"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";color:navy">Regarding levels of something that could be called consciousness or
cognition as a goal for research on lower-level species, I am afraid we will
have to agree to disagree. I am not “better” than a bacterium, and
I have seen elsewhere proposals of pan-consciousness pushed in a way that
amounts to disinformation.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";color:navy"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";color:navy">I agree with what you say in your last paragraph after “postponed
sense of accomplishment”, except for the last sentence. I do not think it
is too late to re-interpret, say, the <i><span style="font-style:italic">Leviathan
</span></i>of Thomas Hobbes, but I would not consider it “science”.
Are you, also, referring to some of the responsible work designated as neo-Marxism,
some of which I find useful? Could you give some examples of the scientific
studies you have in mind? <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";color:navy"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";color:navy">Thank you and bets regards,<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";color:navy"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";color:navy">Joseph<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt">
<hr size="2" width="100%" align="center">
</span></font></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold">From:</span></font></b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma">
Fis [mailto:<a href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es</a>] <b><span style="font-weight:bold">On
Behalf Of </span></b>Jaime Cardenas-Garcia<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> jeudi, 28 novembre 2019
00:23<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> Diego Lucio Rapoport<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Cc:</span></b> fis<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Fis] Fis Digest, Vol
62, Issue 36</span></font><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:6pt;text-align:justify"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12pt">Dear Joseph,</span><u></u><u></u></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:6pt;text-align:justify"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12pt">I don’t
understand your qualification of “A melancholy posting”. Nor,
“When those capacities atrophy . . .”</span><u></u><u></u></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:6pt;text-align:justify"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12pt">As regards
your statement: “I had thought human beings possessed recursive levels of
cognitive processing such that even disinformation and selfish behavior are the
not the results of blind instinct alone”. Is this wishful thinking? </span><u></u><u></u></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:6pt;text-align:justify"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12pt">You
don’t judge someone by what they say about themselves, but rather by
their actions and consequences of their actions. It is so with regard to human
beings. We can say many things about ourselves, but this does not imply they
are true. That we have souls. That we are somehow better than other living
beings since we possess “… recursive levels of cognitive processing
such that even disinformation and selfish behavior are the not the results of
blind instinct alone.” That to better understand our cognitive
superiority we should search for a “minimal level of cognition” in
other living beings such as bacteria. The list is endless<font color="navy"><span style="color:navy">.</span></font> I would argue instead for a postponed sense
of accomplishment, <font color="navy"><span style="color:navy"><u></u><u></u></span></font></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:6pt;text-align:justify"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:6pt;text-align:justify"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12pt">since with our
apparently endless need for disinformation/misinformation we seem to be in hot
pursuit of our own demise by way of climate change and technological doomsday
advances. Ideas/actions that tend to originate in the so-called developed
world, who are the contributors to most of the causes of such looming
tragedies.</span><u></u><u></u></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:6pt;text-align:justify"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12pt">Disinformation/misinformation
IMHO is the solution to the problem of political/economical domination by a
small minority (the notorious 1% that own ~50% of the world’s wealth). Of
course, this plays out around the world in different ways: Middle East; Europe;
Asia; North, Central and South America; South Pacific; and <u></u>Africa<u></u>.
It has been a fruitful field of scientific study for many years now, maybe even
centuries, with the specific purpose of keeping the majority of the
world’s population in their place. If FIS wants to get into this game, it
is late at best. </span><u></u><u></u></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:6pt;text-align:justify"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12pt">Terry’s
suggestion seems worthy of pursuit. </span><u></u><u></u></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:6pt;text-align:justify"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12pt">Kind regards,</span><u></u><u></u></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:6pt;text-align:justify"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12pt">Jaime</span><u></u><u></u></font></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">On Wed, Nov 27, 2019 at 6:09 PM Diego Lucio Rapoport <<a href="mailto:diego.rapoport@gmail.com" target="_blank">diego.rapoport@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">Dear Colleagues <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">Following the ensuing discussions now rounded up by Pedro, it very much
seems that the issue is whoever establishes a narrative as the real one, for
which actions are produced to impose it, gets the upper hand. When this is
failing, or as a preparation for it, it is the emotional impression which is
the early priority towards the later cooking up of the narrative prior to
its selling. <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">So, fear is to be created and made as the primal cognitive setting.
This is the current plan.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">The new generation in Chile puts it thus: "they took away from us
everything, to the point that with it they took away our fear too". To
counter it, what is being attempted is to produce an oversaturation of
negativity, a wearing out towards inducing acceptation.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">This is what was tried in Argentina, but failed due to the ruined
economy at the fastest speed ever, with the main factor for the change the
reappearance of a united force that historically has been cyclically enpowered
and repressed the Peronists, <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">Rather than a political party it is a movement with a popular base that
spontaneously appeared at the end of WWII having a nationalist general for
leader, Peron (half Indian)<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">It presently has sectors of the middle classes for new support, They
usually voted for the liberals who were the main support for the now outgoing
neoliberals, and see themselves in dire poverty. <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">In Brasil it was Getulio Vargas at the same time coinciding with WWII
who created the basis for modern Brasil, its legal system and industry, which
is presently being teared appart and put to sale. The same situation in
Colombia. In Latin America it is the state, at times the sole agent together
with industrial sectors of its making, and workers movements, which
institutionalizes the very possibility of construing a nation and a
social contract. The modern state with its late 19th century inception,
refurbished, with the remarkable phenomenon of the liberals destroying it<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">Diego Lucio<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt"> <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">El mié., 27 nov. 2019 a las 19:56, <<a href="mailto:fis-request@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis-request@listas.unizar.es</a>>
escribió:<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">Send Fis mailing list submissions to<br>
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<br>
than "Re: Contents of Fis digest..."<br>
<br>
<br>
Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. Re: FW: The Age of Discord (Pedro C. Marijuan)<br>
2. Re: The Age of Discord. The Foundations of DIS-information<br>
Science (Joseph Brenner)<br>
3. Re: The Age of Discord. The Foundations of DIS-information<br>
Science (Terrence W. DEACON)<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 19:42:10 +0100<br>
From: "Pedro C. Marijuan" <<a href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" target="_blank">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>><br>
To: Howard Bloom <<a href="mailto:howlbloom@aol.com" target="_blank">howlbloom@aol.com</a>>,
<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Fis] FW: The Age of Discord<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:cf675d1b-6ba4-32ca-43a3-1bd2e1b83563@aragon.es" target="_blank">cf675d1b-6ba4-32ca-43a3-1bd2e1b83563@aragon.es</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"<br>
<br>
Dear Howard and FIS colleagues,<br>
<br>
(I think your interesting response below did not enter into the <br>
list--other parties should read it before these lines).<br>
<br>
Curiously you do not develop there the "yes" side of your reasoning <br>
regarding the role of Internet & mobiles.<br>
<br>
It is unfulfilled expectations the main factor? Maybe, but only <br>
partially, for they have to be accompanied by deep social crisis, by <br>
efficient means of communication, and by a modicum of rebel <br>
organization. Otherwise the revolts do not ignite or do not conduce to <br>
anything. In 1848 there was a radical capitalist transformation and the <br>
beginning of the proletarian insurrection. Mass migrations to city <br>
slums, lots of poverty coupled to ancient regime constraints, with <br>
plenty of pamphlets and newspapers of all kinds circulating, and new <br>
organizations of both bourgeois and proletarian orientation. Previously, <br>
both the scientific revolution and the political revolution had been <br>
shaking the world, both the brainchild of the printing press...<br>
<br>
So, I much emphasize "means of communication" (in Iran 1979 it was
not <br>
books but clandestine cassettes circulating among Mosques). These means <br>
represent the "plus" without which revolts cannot ignite or
propagate. <br>
Therefore the fight to tip the balance between <br>
information/disinformation in the own benefit, by both defenders and <br>
contenders, is essential to frame the resulting expectations and <br>
frustrations. What Joseph and Terry have just argued. He who establishes <br>
the "truth" of the masses wins.<br>
<br>
And in our times it is the new media which are bringing an unexpected, <br>
never seen panorama of global connectivity, irreflexive mentality, and <br>
internecine division within societies, coupled with the diminished, <br>
frustrated expectations of large fractions of Western population (middle <br>
class, proletarians) right in front of the new mega-rich. This felt <br>
inequality and a sense of immediate ecological catastrophe, and aired <br>
gender grievances, are igniting today's well connected masses... <br>
towards? Who knows. This may be connected with Diego's and Karl's <br>
reflections.<br>
<br>
Best--Pedro<br>
<br>
<br>
11/2019 a las 2:24, Howard Bloom escribi?:<br>
> pedro, thanks for this.<br>
><br>
> we are in a time of paradox. with street demonstrations in Asia, the <br>
> Middle East, Europe, and South America.<br>
><br>
> do these depend on the internet?? yes and no.? remember, in 1848 there <br>
> were roughly 57 revolutions worldwide, and there was no internet.? <br>
> even though there was the telegraph.<br>
><br>
> remember the j curve.? when expectations are raised, then not met, we <br>
> have revolt in the streets.<br>
><br>
> ironically, it's good times that raise expectations.? so good times <br>
> crimped by a momentary downturn can lead to street demonstrations.? it <br>
> happened in france in 1788 when bread prices went up. and it happened <br>
> in iran in 1979.<br>
><br>
> frankly, we need a theory of expectations, a theory of the role that <br>
> future projection plays in our lives, in our biology...and in the <br>
> forces of history.<br>
><br>
> with warmth and oomph--howard<br>
><br>
<br>
-- <br>
-------------------------------------------------<br>
Pedro C. Mariju?n<br>
Grupo de Bioinformaci?n / Bioinformation Group<br>
<br>
<a href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" target="_blank">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a><br>
<a href="http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/" target="_blank">http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/</a><br>
-------------------------------------------------<br>
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Message: 2<br>
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 22:29:12 +0100<br>
From: "Joseph Brenner" <<a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" target="_blank">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>><br>
To: <<a href="mailto:annette.grathoff@is4si.org" target="_blank">annette.grathoff@is4si.org</a>>,
<<a href="mailto:deacon@berkeley.edu" target="_blank">deacon@berkeley.edu</a>><br>
Cc: fis <<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Fis] The Age of Discord. The Foundations of<br>
DIS-information Science<br>
Message-ID: <B8F3862541724D52A4248EEB0DB62781@LAPTOPR7Q1BSBB><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"<br>
<br>
Dear Colleagues,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I thank both those of you who commented and those who did not. I would like<br>
to understand the latter - why there were only 6 responses: was my<br>
formulation in fact too 'political'? Do people think that negative things<br>
like disinformation don't require analysis? The key things I learned: <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Annette: <br>
<br>
Three clear contributions:<br>
<br>
1) Understanding disinformation and misinformation is part of a full<br>
conceptualization of information. <br>
<br>
2) Principles applying to them may have essential implications for the<br>
underlying physics (and other sciences).<br>
<br>
3) We should list again the things we do not understand as a key part of our<br>
strategy.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Jaime:<br>
<br>
A melancholy posting. I had thought human beings possessed recursive levels<br>
of cognitive processing such that even disinformation and selfish behavior<br>
are the not the results of blind instinct alone. When those capacities<br>
atrophy . . . <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Krassimir:<br>
<br>
1) The strengths and weaknesses of what it is to be human.<br>
<br>
2) Avoid lies and liar paradoxes. They are binary 'traps' for thought.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Terry:<br>
<br>
Thank you. Clearly,<br>
<br>
1) Normative aspects of information should be an essential part of a full<br>
scientific conceptualization of it.<br>
<br>
2) Lets start with just one way to mitigate the operation of disinformation.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Joseph:<br>
<br>
I mention a term I just heard for the first time on Swiss TV - infobesity.<br>
<br>
We need an informational biotope to treat this.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I look forward to a next round, even though this is not a formal discussion<br>
topic.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Best wishes. <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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<br>
Message: 3<br>
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 13:55:49 -0800<br>
From: "Terrence W. DEACON" <<a href="mailto:deacon@berkeley.edu" target="_blank">deacon@berkeley.edu</a>><br>
To: Joseph Brenner <<a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" target="_blank">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>><br>
Cc: fis <<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>>,
Annette Grathoff<br>
<<a href="mailto:annette.grathoff@is4si.org" target="_blank">annette.grathoff@is4si.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Fis] The Age of Discord. The Foundations of<br>
DIS-information Science<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:CAOJbPRKSqSUgQwrpaGd%2BJMew31Ef%2ByfKp1BG6XCOe_-bmDTf1g@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank">CAOJbPRKSqSUgQwrpaGd+JMew31Ef+yfKp1BG6XCOe_-bmDTf1g@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
As a starting point I recommend a book just out by Frederik Stjernfelt<br>
& Anne Mette Lauritzen<br>
titled "Your Post has been removed"<br>
It is available free online as a pdf<br>
<a href="https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007%2F978-3-030-25968-6.pdf" target="_blank">https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007%2F978-3-030-25968-6.pdf</a><br>
<br>
On Wed, Nov 27, 2019 at 1:29 PM Joseph Brenner <<a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" target="_blank">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>><br>
wrote:<br>
<br>
> Dear Colleagues,<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> I thank both those of you who commented and those who did not. I would<br>
> like to understand the latter - why there were only 6 responses: was my<br>
> formulation in fact too ?political?? Do people think that negative things<br>
> like disinformation don?t require analysis? The key things I learned:<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> Annette:<br>
><br>
> Three clear contributions:<br>
><br>
> 1) Understanding disinformation and misinformation is part of a full<br>
> conceptualization of information.<br>
><br>
> 2) Principles applying to them may have essential implications for the<br>
> underlying physics (and other sciences).<br>
><br>
> 3) We should list again the things we do *not *understand as a key part<br>
> of our strategy.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> Jaime:<br>
><br>
> A melancholy posting. I had thought human beings possessed recursive<br>
> levels of cognitive processing such that even disinformation and selfish<br>
> behavior are the not the results of blind instinct alone. When those<br>
> capacities atrophy . . .<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> Krassimir:<br>
><br>
> 1) The strengths and weaknesses of what it is to be human.<br>
><br>
> 2) Avoid lies *and *liar paradoxes. They are binary ?traps? for thought.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> Terry:<br>
><br>
> Thank you. Clearly,<br>
><br>
> 1) Normative aspects of information should be an essential part of a full<br>
> scientific conceptualization of it.<br>
><br>
> 2) Lets start with just *one *way to mitigate the operation of<br>
> disinformation.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> Joseph:<br>
><br>
> I mention a term I just heard for the first time on Swiss TV ? infobesity.<br>
><br>
> We need an informational biotope to treat this.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> I look forward to a next round, even though this is not a formal<br>
> discussion topic.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> Best wishes.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Professor Terrence W. Deacon<br>
University of California, Berkeley<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt"><br clear="all">
<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">-- <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">Jaime F. Cárdenas-García, PhD, PE<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt"><a href="mailto:JFCardenasGarcia@gmail.com" target="_blank">JFCardenasGarcia@gmail.com</a><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt">(240) 498-7556 (cell)<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
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</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div>Jaime F. Cárdenas-García, PhD, PE</div><div><a href="mailto:JFCardenasGarcia@gmail.com" target="_blank">JFCardenasGarcia@gmail.com</a></div><div>(240) 498-7556 (cell)<br></div><div><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>