<div dir="ltr">Dear Colleagues<div><br></div><div>Better than images and any other language to convey a message is music, so in these days that the Andean people have insurrected, the piece in the link</div><div>will convey key elements of these cultures at present times. I am sure you will not emote in anyway anything related to violence</div><div><br></div><div><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpa-44M9NuQ">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpa-44M9NuQ</a> <br></div><div><br></div><div>Cheers,</div><div><br></div><div>Diego Lucio</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">El jue., 28 nov. 2019 a las 6:14, <<a href="mailto:fis-request@listas.unizar.es">fis-request@listas.unizar.es</a>> escribió:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Send Fis mailing list submissions to<br>
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Today's Topics:<br>
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1. Fwd: Fis Digest, Vol 62, Issue 36 (Diego Lucio Rapoport)<br>
2. Re: Fis Digest, Vol 62, Issue 36. Re: Jaime on disinformation<br>
(Joseph Brenner)<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 21:27:10 -0200<br>
From: Diego Lucio Rapoport <<a href="mailto:diego.rapoport@gmail.com" target="_blank">diego.rapoport@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: fis <<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>><br>
Subject: [Fis] Fwd: Fis Digest, Vol 62, Issue 36<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<CAOKhh+X9WaSFJ-=Bm4DrHRMtG5USfw-UN3kE_J6c8UfghvM=<a href="mailto:rg@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank">rg@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
The main factor, perhaps, is that of a refurbished state to operate<br>
restructured to incorporate civil society and operating heterarchically<br>
with it.<br>
A fundamental provision: the possibility of a retraction of empowerment of<br>
authorities when their contracts with the electorate fail or ceased to be<br>
attempted at all.<br>
Usage of blockchain technology for administration of a state and civil<br>
contracts, and for complete opening of budgets and verification of<br>
administrative acts.<br>
<br>
DL<br>
<br>
---------- Forwarded message ---------<br>
De: <<a href="mailto:fis-request@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis-request@listas.unizar.es</a>><br>
Date: mi?., 27 nov. 2019 a las 19:56<br>
Subject: Fis Digest, Vol 62, Issue 36<br>
To: <<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>><br>
<br>
<br>
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Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. Re: FW: The Age of Discord (Pedro C. Marijuan)<br>
2. Re: The Age of Discord. The Foundations of DIS-information<br>
Science (Joseph Brenner)<br>
3. Re: The Age of Discord. The Foundations of DIS-information<br>
Science (Terrence W. DEACON)<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 19:42:10 +0100<br>
From: "Pedro C. Marijuan" <<a href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" target="_blank">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>><br>
To: Howard Bloom <<a href="mailto:howlbloom@aol.com" target="_blank">howlbloom@aol.com</a>>, <a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Fis] FW: The Age of Discord<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:cf675d1b-6ba4-32ca-43a3-1bd2e1b83563@aragon.es" target="_blank">cf675d1b-6ba4-32ca-43a3-1bd2e1b83563@aragon.es</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"<br>
<br>
Dear Howard and FIS colleagues,<br>
<br>
(I think your interesting response below did not enter into the<br>
list--other parties should read it before these lines).<br>
<br>
Curiously you do not develop there the "yes" side of your reasoning<br>
regarding the role of Internet & mobiles.<br>
<br>
It is unfulfilled expectations the main factor? Maybe, but only<br>
partially, for they have to be accompanied by deep social crisis, by<br>
efficient means of communication, and by a modicum of rebel<br>
organization. Otherwise the revolts do not ignite or do not conduce to<br>
anything. In 1848 there was a radical capitalist transformation and the<br>
beginning of the proletarian insurrection. Mass migrations to city<br>
slums, lots of poverty coupled to ancient regime constraints, with<br>
plenty of pamphlets and newspapers of all kinds circulating, and new<br>
organizations of both bourgeois and proletarian orientation. Previously,<br>
both the scientific revolution and the political revolution had been<br>
shaking the world, both the brainchild of the printing press...<br>
<br>
So, I much emphasize "means of communication" (in Iran 1979 it was not<br>
books but clandestine cassettes circulating among Mosques). These means<br>
represent the "plus" without which revolts cannot ignite or propagate.<br>
Therefore the fight to tip the balance between<br>
information/disinformation in the own benefit, by both defenders and<br>
contenders, is essential to frame the resulting expectations and<br>
frustrations. What Joseph and Terry have just argued. He who establishes<br>
the "truth" of the masses wins.<br>
<br>
And in our times it is the new media which are bringing an unexpected,<br>
never seen panorama of global connectivity, irreflexive mentality, and<br>
internecine division within societies, coupled with the diminished,<br>
frustrated expectations of large fractions of Western population (middle<br>
class, proletarians) right in front of the new mega-rich. This felt<br>
inequality and a sense of immediate ecological catastrophe, and aired<br>
gender grievances, are igniting today's well connected masses...<br>
towards? Who knows. This may be connected with Diego's and Karl's<br>
reflections.<br>
<br>
Best--Pedro<br>
<br>
<br>
11/2019 a las 2:24, Howard Bloom escribi?:<br>
> pedro, thanks for this.<br>
><br>
> we are in a time of paradox. with street demonstrations in Asia, the<br>
> Middle East, Europe, and South America.<br>
><br>
> do these depend on the internet?? yes and no.? remember, in 1848 there<br>
> were roughly 57 revolutions worldwide, and there was no internet.?<br>
> even though there was the telegraph.<br>
><br>
> remember the j curve.? when expectations are raised, then not met, we<br>
> have revolt in the streets.<br>
><br>
> ironically, it's good times that raise expectations.? so good times<br>
> crimped by a momentary downturn can lead to street demonstrations.? it<br>
> happened in france in 1788 when bread prices went up. and it happened<br>
> in iran in 1979.<br>
><br>
> frankly, we need a theory of expectations, a theory of the role that<br>
> future projection plays in our lives, in our biology...and in the<br>
> forces of history.<br>
><br>
> with warmth and oomph--howard<br>
><br>
<br>
-- <br>
-------------------------------------------------<br>
Pedro C. Mariju?n<br>
Grupo de Bioinformaci?n / Bioinformation Group<br>
<br>
<a href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" target="_blank">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a><br>
<a href="http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/</a><br>
-------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
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Message: 2<br>
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 22:29:12 +0100<br>
From: "Joseph Brenner" <<a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" target="_blank">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>><br>
To: <<a href="mailto:annette.grathoff@is4si.org" target="_blank">annette.grathoff@is4si.org</a>>, <<a href="mailto:deacon@berkeley.edu" target="_blank">deacon@berkeley.edu</a>><br>
Cc: fis <<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Fis] The Age of Discord. The Foundations of<br>
DIS-information Science<br>
Message-ID: <B8F3862541724D52A4248EEB0DB62781@LAPTOPR7Q1BSBB><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"<br>
<br>
Dear Colleagues,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I thank both those of you who commented and those who did not. I would like<br>
to understand the latter - why there were only 6 responses: was my<br>
formulation in fact too 'political'? Do people think that negative things<br>
like disinformation don't require analysis? The key things I learned:<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Annette:<br>
<br>
Three clear contributions:<br>
<br>
1) Understanding disinformation and misinformation is part of a full<br>
conceptualization of information.<br>
<br>
2) Principles applying to them may have essential implications for the<br>
underlying physics (and other sciences).<br>
<br>
3) We should list again the things we do not understand as a key part of our<br>
strategy.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Jaime:<br>
<br>
A melancholy posting. I had thought human beings possessed recursive levels<br>
of cognitive processing such that even disinformation and selfish behavior<br>
are the not the results of blind instinct alone. When those capacities<br>
atrophy . . .<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Krassimir:<br>
<br>
1) The strengths and weaknesses of what it is to be human.<br>
<br>
2) Avoid lies and liar paradoxes. They are binary 'traps' for thought.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Terry:<br>
<br>
Thank you. Clearly,<br>
<br>
1) Normative aspects of information should be an essential part of a full<br>
scientific conceptualization of it.<br>
<br>
2) Lets start with just one way to mitigate the operation of disinformation.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Joseph:<br>
<br>
I mention a term I just heard for the first time on Swiss TV - infobesity.<br>
<br>
We need an informational biotope to treat this.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I look forward to a next round, even though this is not a formal discussion<br>
topic.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Best wishes.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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<br>
Message: 3<br>
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 13:55:49 -0800<br>
From: "Terrence W. DEACON" <<a href="mailto:deacon@berkeley.edu" target="_blank">deacon@berkeley.edu</a>><br>
To: Joseph Brenner <<a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" target="_blank">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>><br>
Cc: fis <<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>>, Annette Grathoff<br>
<<a href="mailto:annette.grathoff@is4si.org" target="_blank">annette.grathoff@is4si.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Fis] The Age of Discord. The Foundations of<br>
DIS-information Science<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:CAOJbPRKSqSUgQwrpaGd%2BJMew31Ef%2ByfKp1BG6XCOe_-bmDTf1g@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank">CAOJbPRKSqSUgQwrpaGd+JMew31Ef+yfKp1BG6XCOe_-bmDTf1g@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
As a starting point I recommend a book just out by Frederik Stjernfelt<br>
& Anne Mette Lauritzen<br>
titled "Your Post has been removed"<br>
It is available free online as a pdf<br>
<a href="https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007%2F978-3-030-25968-6.pdf" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007%2F978-3-030-25968-6.pdf</a><br>
<br>
On Wed, Nov 27, 2019 at 1:29 PM Joseph Brenner <<a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" target="_blank">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>><br>
wrote:<br>
<br>
> Dear Colleagues,<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> I thank both those of you who commented and those who did not. I would<br>
> like to understand the latter - why there were only 6 responses: was my<br>
> formulation in fact too ?political?? Do people think that negative things<br>
> like disinformation don?t require analysis? The key things I learned:<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> Annette:<br>
><br>
> Three clear contributions:<br>
><br>
> 1) Understanding disinformation and misinformation is part of a full<br>
> conceptualization of information.<br>
><br>
> 2) Principles applying to them may have essential implications for the<br>
> underlying physics (and other sciences).<br>
><br>
> 3) We should list again the things we do *not *understand as a key part<br>
> of our strategy.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> Jaime:<br>
><br>
> A melancholy posting. I had thought human beings possessed recursive<br>
> levels of cognitive processing such that even disinformation and selfish<br>
> behavior are the not the results of blind instinct alone. When those<br>
> capacities atrophy . . .<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> Krassimir:<br>
><br>
> 1) The strengths and weaknesses of what it is to be human.<br>
><br>
> 2) Avoid lies *and *liar paradoxes. They are binary ?traps? for thought.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> Terry:<br>
><br>
> Thank you. Clearly,<br>
><br>
> 1) Normative aspects of information should be an essential part of a full<br>
> scientific conceptualization of it.<br>
><br>
> 2) Lets start with just *one *way to mitigate the operation of<br>
> disinformation.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> Joseph:<br>
><br>
> I mention a term I just heard for the first time on Swiss TV ? infobesity.<br>
><br>
> We need an informational biotope to treat this.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> I look forward to a next round, even though this is not a formal<br>
> discussion topic.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> Best wishes.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Professor Terrence W. Deacon<br>
University of California, Berkeley<br>
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Message: 2<br>
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2019 09:13:23 +0100<br>
From: "Joseph Brenner" <<a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" target="_blank">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>><br>
To: "'Jaime Cardenas-Garcia'" <<a href="mailto:jfcardenasgarcia@gmail.com" target="_blank">jfcardenasgarcia@gmail.com</a>>, "'Diego<br>
Lucio Rapoport'" <<a href="mailto:diego.rapoport@gmail.com" target="_blank">diego.rapoport@gmail.com</a>><br>
Cc: 'fis' <<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Fis] Fis Digest, Vol 62, Issue 36. Re: Jaime on<br>
disinformation<br>
Message-ID: <8788A5265057487D8BEC673566DEA7E9@LAPTOPR7Q1BSBB><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<br>
<br>
Dear Jaime,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I apologize for the appearance of a personal criticism, when none was<br>
intended. I only wished to point that the behavior of animals who rob the<br>
nests of another species is genetically programmed. This cannot be compared<br>
directly to that of human beings unless the latter have regressed to the<br>
level of such apparently selfish species. We certainly can take the behavior<br>
of social, altruistic species such as ants as models, but that is all.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Regarding levels of something that could be called consciousness or<br>
cognition as a goal for research on lower-level species, I am afraid we will<br>
have to agree to disagree. I am not ?better? than a bacterium, and I have<br>
seen elsewhere proposals of pan-consciousness pushed in a way that amounts<br>
to disinformation.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I agree with what you say in your last paragraph after ?postponed sense of<br>
accomplishment?, except for the last sentence. I do not think it is too late<br>
to re-interpret, say, the Leviathan of Thomas Hobbes, but I would not<br>
consider it ?science?. Are you, also, referring to some of the responsible<br>
work designated as neo-Marxism, some of which I find useful? Could you give<br>
some examples of the scientific studies you have in mind? <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Thank you and bets regards,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Joseph<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
_____ <br>
<br>
From: Fis [mailto:<a href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es</a>] On Behalf Of Jaime<br>
Cardenas-Garcia<br>
Sent: jeudi, 28 novembre 2019 00:23<br>
To: Diego Lucio Rapoport<br>
Cc: fis<br>
Subject: Re: [Fis] Fis Digest, Vol 62, Issue 36<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Dear Joseph,<br>
<br>
I don?t understand your qualification of ?A melancholy posting?. Nor, ?When<br>
those capacities atrophy . . .?<br>
<br>
As regards your statement: ?I had thought human beings possessed recursive<br>
levels of cognitive processing such that even disinformation and selfish<br>
behavior are the not the results of blind instinct alone?. Is this wishful<br>
thinking? <br>
<br>
You don?t judge someone by what they say about themselves, but rather by<br>
their actions and consequences of their actions. It is so with regard to<br>
human beings. We can say many things about ourselves, but this does not<br>
imply they are true. That we have souls. That we are somehow better than<br>
other living beings since we possess ?? recursive levels of cognitive<br>
processing such that even disinformation and selfish behavior are the not<br>
the results of blind instinct alone.? That to better understand our<br>
cognitive superiority we should search for a ?minimal level of cognition? in<br>
other living beings such as bacteria. The list is endless. I would argue<br>
instead for a postponed sense of accomplishment, <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
since with our apparently endless need for disinformation/misinformation we<br>
seem to be in hot pursuit of our own demise by way of climate change and<br>
technological doomsday advances. Ideas/actions that tend to originate in the<br>
so-called developed world, who are the contributors to most of the causes of<br>
such looming tragedies.<br>
<br>
Disinformation/misinformation IMHO is the solution to the problem of<br>
political/economical domination by a small minority (the notorious 1% that<br>
own ~50% of the world?s wealth). Of course, this plays out around the world<br>
in different ways: Middle East; Europe; Asia; North, Central and South<br>
America; South Pacific; and Africa. It has been a fruitful field of<br>
scientific study for many years now, maybe even centuries, with the specific<br>
purpose of keeping the majority of the world?s population in their place. If<br>
FIS wants to get into this game, it is late at best. <br>
<br>
Terry?s suggestion seems worthy of pursuit. <br>
<br>
Kind regards,<br>
<br>
Jaime<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Wed, Nov 27, 2019 at 6:09 PM Diego Lucio Rapoport<br>
<<a href="mailto:diego.rapoport@gmail.com" target="_blank">diego.rapoport@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
Dear Colleagues <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Following the ensuing discussions now rounded up by Pedro, it very much<br>
seems that the issue is whoever establishes a narrative as the real one, for<br>
which actions are produced to impose it, gets the upper hand. When this is<br>
failing, or as a preparation for it, it is the emotional impression which is<br>
the early priority towards the later cooking up of the narrative prior to<br>
its selling. <br>
<br>
So, fear is to be created and made as the primal cognitive setting. This is<br>
the current plan.<br>
<br>
The new generation in Chile puts it thus: "they took away from us<br>
everything, to the point that with it they took away our fear too". To<br>
counter it, what is being attempted is to produce an oversaturation of<br>
negativity, a wearing out towards inducing acceptation.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
This is what was tried in Argentina, but failed due to the ruined economy at<br>
the fastest speed ever, with the main factor for the change the reappearance<br>
of a united force that historically has been cyclically enpowered and<br>
repressed the Peronists, <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Rather than a political party it is a movement with a popular base that<br>
spontaneously appeared at the end of WWII having a nationalist general for<br>
leader, Peron (half Indian)<br>
<br>
It presently has sectors of the middle classes for new support, They usually<br>
voted for the liberals who were the main support for the now outgoing<br>
neoliberals, and see themselves in dire poverty. <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
In Brasil it was Getulio Vargas at the same time coinciding with WWII who<br>
created the basis for modern Brasil, its legal system and industry, which is<br>
presently being teared appart and put to sale. The same situation in<br>
Colombia. In Latin America it is the state, at times the sole agent together<br>
with industrial sectors of its making, and workers movements, which<br>
institutionalizes the very possibility of construing a nation and a social<br>
contract. The modern state with its late 19th century inception,<br>
refurbished, with the remarkable phenomenon of the liberals destroying it<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Diego Lucio<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
El mi?., 27 nov. 2019 a las 19:56, <<a href="mailto:fis-request@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis-request@listas.unizar.es</a>> escribi?:<br>
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Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. Re: FW: The Age of Discord (Pedro C. Marijuan)<br>
2. Re: The Age of Discord. The Foundations of DIS-information<br>
Science (Joseph Brenner)<br>
3. Re: The Age of Discord. The Foundations of DIS-information<br>
Science (Terrence W. DEACON)<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 19:42:10 +0100<br>
From: "Pedro C. Marijuan" <<a href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" target="_blank">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>><br>
To: Howard Bloom <<a href="mailto:howlbloom@aol.com" target="_blank">howlbloom@aol.com</a>>, <a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Fis] FW: The Age of Discord<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:cf675d1b-6ba4-32ca-43a3-1bd2e1b83563@aragon.es" target="_blank">cf675d1b-6ba4-32ca-43a3-1bd2e1b83563@aragon.es</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"<br>
<br>
Dear Howard and FIS colleagues,<br>
<br>
(I think your interesting response below did not enter into the <br>
list--other parties should read it before these lines).<br>
<br>
Curiously you do not develop there the "yes" side of your reasoning <br>
regarding the role of Internet & mobiles.<br>
<br>
It is unfulfilled expectations the main factor? Maybe, but only <br>
partially, for they have to be accompanied by deep social crisis, by <br>
efficient means of communication, and by a modicum of rebel <br>
organization. Otherwise the revolts do not ignite or do not conduce to <br>
anything. In 1848 there was a radical capitalist transformation and the <br>
beginning of the proletarian insurrection. Mass migrations to city <br>
slums, lots of poverty coupled to ancient regime constraints, with <br>
plenty of pamphlets and newspapers of all kinds circulating, and new <br>
organizations of both bourgeois and proletarian orientation. Previously, <br>
both the scientific revolution and the political revolution had been <br>
shaking the world, both the brainchild of the printing press...<br>
<br>
So, I much emphasize "means of communication" (in Iran 1979 it was not <br>
books but clandestine cassettes circulating among Mosques). These means <br>
represent the "plus" without which revolts cannot ignite or propagate. <br>
Therefore the fight to tip the balance between <br>
information/disinformation in the own benefit, by both defenders and <br>
contenders, is essential to frame the resulting expectations and <br>
frustrations. What Joseph and Terry have just argued. He who establishes <br>
the "truth" of the masses wins.<br>
<br>
And in our times it is the new media which are bringing an unexpected, <br>
never seen panorama of global connectivity, irreflexive mentality, and <br>
internecine division within societies, coupled with the diminished, <br>
frustrated expectations of large fractions of Western population (middle <br>
class, proletarians) right in front of the new mega-rich. This felt <br>
inequality and a sense of immediate ecological catastrophe, and aired <br>
gender grievances, are igniting today's well connected masses... <br>
towards? Who knows. This may be connected with Diego's and Karl's <br>
reflections.<br>
<br>
Best--Pedro<br>
<br>
<br>
11/2019 a las 2:24, Howard Bloom escribi?:<br>
> pedro, thanks for this.<br>
><br>
> we are in a time of paradox. with street demonstrations in Asia, the <br>
> Middle East, Europe, and South America.<br>
><br>
> do these depend on the internet?? yes and no.? remember, in 1848 there <br>
> were roughly 57 revolutions worldwide, and there was no internet.? <br>
> even though there was the telegraph.<br>
><br>
> remember the j curve.? when expectations are raised, then not met, we <br>
> have revolt in the streets.<br>
><br>
> ironically, it's good times that raise expectations.? so good times <br>
> crimped by a momentary downturn can lead to street demonstrations.? it <br>
> happened in france in 1788 when bread prices went up. and it happened <br>
> in iran in 1979.<br>
><br>
> frankly, we need a theory of expectations, a theory of the role that <br>
> future projection plays in our lives, in our biology...and in the <br>
> forces of history.<br>
><br>
> with warmth and oomph--howard<br>
><br>
<br>
-- <br>
-------------------------------------------------<br>
Pedro C. Mariju?n<br>
Grupo de Bioinformaci?n / Bioinformation Group<br>
<br>
<a href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" target="_blank">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a><br>
<a href="http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/</a><br>
-------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
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Message: 2<br>
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 22:29:12 +0100<br>
From: "Joseph Brenner" <<a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" target="_blank">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>><br>
To: <<a href="mailto:annette.grathoff@is4si.org" target="_blank">annette.grathoff@is4si.org</a>>, <<a href="mailto:deacon@berkeley.edu" target="_blank">deacon@berkeley.edu</a>><br>
Cc: fis <<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Fis] The Age of Discord. The Foundations of<br>
DIS-information Science<br>
Message-ID: <B8F3862541724D52A4248EEB0DB62781@LAPTOPR7Q1BSBB><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"<br>
<br>
Dear Colleagues,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I thank both those of you who commented and those who did not. I would like<br>
to understand the latter - why there were only 6 responses: was my<br>
formulation in fact too 'political'? Do people think that negative things<br>
like disinformation don't require analysis? The key things I learned: <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Annette: <br>
<br>
Three clear contributions:<br>
<br>
1) Understanding disinformation and misinformation is part of a full<br>
conceptualization of information. <br>
<br>
2) Principles applying to them may have essential implications for the<br>
underlying physics (and other sciences).<br>
<br>
3) We should list again the things we do not understand as a key part of our<br>
strategy.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Jaime:<br>
<br>
A melancholy posting. I had thought human beings possessed recursive levels<br>
of cognitive processing such that even disinformation and selfish behavior<br>
are the not the results of blind instinct alone. When those capacities<br>
atrophy . . . <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Krassimir:<br>
<br>
1) The strengths and weaknesses of what it is to be human.<br>
<br>
2) Avoid lies and liar paradoxes. They are binary 'traps' for thought.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Terry:<br>
<br>
Thank you. Clearly,<br>
<br>
1) Normative aspects of information should be an essential part of a full<br>
scientific conceptualization of it.<br>
<br>
2) Lets start with just one way to mitigate the operation of disinformation.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Joseph:<br>
<br>
I mention a term I just heard for the first time on Swiss TV - infobesity.<br>
<br>
We need an informational biotope to treat this.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I look forward to a next round, even though this is not a formal discussion<br>
topic.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Best wishes. <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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Message: 3<br>
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 13:55:49 -0800<br>
From: "Terrence W. DEACON" <<a href="mailto:deacon@berkeley.edu" target="_blank">deacon@berkeley.edu</a>><br>
To: Joseph Brenner <<a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" target="_blank">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>><br>
Cc: fis <<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>>, Annette Grathoff<br>
<<a href="mailto:annette.grathoff@is4si.org" target="_blank">annette.grathoff@is4si.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Fis] The Age of Discord. The Foundations of<br>
DIS-information Science<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:CAOJbPRKSqSUgQwrpaGd%2BJMew31Ef%2ByfKp1BG6XCOe_-bmDTf1g@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank">CAOJbPRKSqSUgQwrpaGd+JMew31Ef+yfKp1BG6XCOe_-bmDTf1g@mail.gmail.com</a><br>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:CAOJbPRKSqSUgQwrpaGd%252BJMew31Ef%252ByfKp1BG6XCOe_-bmDTf1g@mail.gmail.c" target="_blank">CAOJbPRKSqSUgQwrpaGd%2BJMew31Ef%2ByfKp1BG6XCOe_-bmDTf1g@mail.gmail.c</a><br>
om> ><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
As a starting point I recommend a book just out by Frederik Stjernfelt<br>
& Anne Mette Lauritzen<br>
titled "Your Post has been removed"<br>
It is available free online as a pdf<br>
<a href="https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007%2F978-3-030-25968-6.pdf" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007%2F978-3-030-25968-6.pdf</a><br>
<br>
On Wed, Nov 27, 2019 at 1:29 PM Joseph Brenner <<a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" target="_blank">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>><br>
wrote:<br>
<br>
> Dear Colleagues,<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> I thank both those of you who commented and those who did not. I would<br>
> like to understand the latter - why there were only 6 responses: was my<br>
> formulation in fact too ?political?? Do people think that negative things<br>
> like disinformation don?t require analysis? The key things I learned:<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> Annette:<br>
><br>
> Three clear contributions:<br>
><br>
> 1) Understanding disinformation and misinformation is part of a full<br>
> conceptualization of information.<br>
><br>
> 2) Principles applying to them may have essential implications for the<br>
> underlying physics (and other sciences).<br>
><br>
> 3) We should list again the things we do *not *understand as a key part<br>
> of our strategy.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> Jaime:<br>
><br>
> A melancholy posting. I had thought human beings possessed recursive<br>
> levels of cognitive processing such that even disinformation and selfish<br>
> behavior are the not the results of blind instinct alone. When those<br>
> capacities atrophy . . .<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> Krassimir:<br>
><br>
> 1) The strengths and weaknesses of what it is to be human.<br>
><br>
> 2) Avoid lies *and *liar paradoxes. They are binary ?traps? for thought.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> Terry:<br>
><br>
> Thank you. Clearly,<br>
><br>
> 1) Normative aspects of information should be an essential part of a full<br>
> scientific conceptualization of it.<br>
><br>
> 2) Lets start with just *one *way to mitigate the operation of<br>
> disinformation.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> Joseph:<br>
><br>
> I mention a term I just heard for the first time on Swiss TV ? infobesity.<br>
><br>
> We need an informational biotope to treat this.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> I look forward to a next round, even though this is not a formal<br>
> discussion topic.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> Best wishes.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Professor Terrence W. Deacon<br>
University of California, Berkeley<br>
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