<div dir="ltr"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 6pt;text-align:justify;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span lang="EN-GB">Dear
Joseph,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 6pt;text-align:justify;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span lang="EN-GB">I don’t understand
your qualification of “A melancholy posting”. Nor, “</span><span lang="EN-GB">When
those capacities atrophy . . .”</span><span lang="EN-GB"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 6pt;text-align:justify;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span lang="EN-GB">As
regards your statement: “</span><span lang="EN-GB">I had thought human beings
possessed recursive levels of cognitive processing such that even
disinformation and selfish behavior are the not the results of blind instinct
alone”. </span><span lang="EN-GB">Is this
wishful thinking? </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 6pt;text-align:justify;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span lang="EN-GB">You don’t
judge someone by what they say about themselves, but rather by their actions
and consequences of their actions. It is so with regard to human beings. We can
say many things about ourselves, but this does not imply they are true. That we
have souls. That we are somehow better than other living beings since we
possess “… </span><span lang="EN-GB">recursive levels of cognitive processing such that
even disinformation and selfish behavior are the not the results of blind
instinct alone.” That to better understand our cognitive superiority we should
search for a “minimal level of cognition” in other living beings such as bacteria.
</span><span lang="EN-GB">The list is endless. I
would argue instead for a postponed sense of accomplishment, since with our apparently
endless need for disinformation/misinformation we seem to be in hot pursuit of
our own demise by way of climate change and technological doomsday advances. Ideas/actions
that tend to originate in the so-called developed world, who are the
contributors to most of the causes of such looming tragedies.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 6pt;text-align:justify;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span lang="EN-GB">Disinformation/misinformation
IMHO is the solution to the problem of political/economical domination by a small
minority (the notorious 1% that own ~50% of the world’s wealth). Of course,
this plays out around the world in different ways: Middle East; Europe; Asia; North,
Central and South America; South Pacific; and Africa. It has been a fruitful
field of scientific study for many years now, maybe even centuries, with the
specific purpose of keeping the majority of the world’s population in their place.
If FIS wants to get into this game, it is late at best. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 6pt;text-align:justify;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span lang="EN-GB">Terry’s
suggestion seems worthy of pursuit. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 6pt;text-align:justify;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span lang="EN-GB">Kind
regards,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 6pt;text-align:justify;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><span lang="EN-GB">Jaime</span></p></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Nov 27, 2019 at 6:09 PM Diego Lucio Rapoport <<a href="mailto:diego.rapoport@gmail.com">diego.rapoport@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Dear Colleagues <div><br></div><div>Following the ensuing discussions now rounded up by Pedro, it very much seems that the issue is whoever establishes a narrative as the real one, for which actions are produced to impose it, gets the upper hand. When this is failing, or as a preparation for it, it is the emotional impression which is the early priority towards the later cooking up of the narrative prior to its selling. </div><div>So, fear is to be created and made as the primal cognitive setting. This is the current plan.</div><div>The new generation in Chile puts it thus: "they took away from us everything, to the point that with it they took away our fear too". To counter it, what is being attempted is to produce an oversaturation of negativity, a wearing out towards inducing acceptation.</div><div><br></div><div>This is what was tried in Argentina, but failed due to the ruined economy at the fastest speed ever, with the main factor for the change the reappearance of a united force that historically has been cyclically enpowered and repressed the Peronists, </div><div><br></div><div>Rather than a political party it is a movement with a popular base that spontaneously appeared at the end of WWII having a nationalist general for leader, Peron (half Indian)</div><div>It presently has sectors of the middle classes for new support, They usually voted for the liberals who were the main support for the now outgoing neoliberals, and see themselves in dire poverty. </div><div><br></div><div>In Brasil it was Getulio Vargas at the same time coinciding with WWII who created the basis for modern Brasil, its legal system and industry, which is presently being teared appart and put to sale. The same situation in Colombia. In Latin America it is the state, at times the sole agent together with industrial sectors of its making, and workers movements, which institutionalizes the very possibility of construing a nation and a social contract. The modern state with its late 19th century inception, refurbished, with the remarkable phenomenon of the liberals destroying it</div><div><br></div><div>Diego Lucio</div><div> </div><div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">El mié., 27 nov. 2019 a las 19:56, <<a href="mailto:fis-request@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis-request@listas.unizar.es</a>> escribió:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Send Fis mailing list submissions to<br>
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Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. Re: FW: The Age of Discord (Pedro C. Marijuan)<br>
2. Re: The Age of Discord. The Foundations of DIS-information<br>
Science (Joseph Brenner)<br>
3. Re: The Age of Discord. The Foundations of DIS-information<br>
Science (Terrence W. DEACON)<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 19:42:10 +0100<br>
From: "Pedro C. Marijuan" <<a href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" target="_blank">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>><br>
To: Howard Bloom <<a href="mailto:howlbloom@aol.com" target="_blank">howlbloom@aol.com</a>>, <a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Fis] FW: The Age of Discord<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:cf675d1b-6ba4-32ca-43a3-1bd2e1b83563@aragon.es" target="_blank">cf675d1b-6ba4-32ca-43a3-1bd2e1b83563@aragon.es</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"<br>
<br>
Dear Howard and FIS colleagues,<br>
<br>
(I think your interesting response below did not enter into the <br>
list--other parties should read it before these lines).<br>
<br>
Curiously you do not develop there the "yes" side of your reasoning <br>
regarding the role of Internet & mobiles.<br>
<br>
It is unfulfilled expectations the main factor? Maybe, but only <br>
partially, for they have to be accompanied by deep social crisis, by <br>
efficient means of communication, and by a modicum of rebel <br>
organization. Otherwise the revolts do not ignite or do not conduce to <br>
anything. In 1848 there was a radical capitalist transformation and the <br>
beginning of the proletarian insurrection. Mass migrations to city <br>
slums, lots of poverty coupled to ancient regime constraints, with <br>
plenty of pamphlets and newspapers of all kinds circulating, and new <br>
organizations of both bourgeois and proletarian orientation. Previously, <br>
both the scientific revolution and the political revolution had been <br>
shaking the world, both the brainchild of the printing press...<br>
<br>
So, I much emphasize "means of communication" (in Iran 1979 it was not <br>
books but clandestine cassettes circulating among Mosques). These means <br>
represent the "plus" without which revolts cannot ignite or propagate. <br>
Therefore the fight to tip the balance between <br>
information/disinformation in the own benefit, by both defenders and <br>
contenders, is essential to frame the resulting expectations and <br>
frustrations. What Joseph and Terry have just argued. He who establishes <br>
the "truth" of the masses wins.<br>
<br>
And in our times it is the new media which are bringing an unexpected, <br>
never seen panorama of global connectivity, irreflexive mentality, and <br>
internecine division within societies, coupled with the diminished, <br>
frustrated expectations of large fractions of Western population (middle <br>
class, proletarians) right in front of the new mega-rich. This felt <br>
inequality and a sense of immediate ecological catastrophe, and aired <br>
gender grievances, are igniting today's well connected masses... <br>
towards? Who knows. This may be connected with Diego's and Karl's <br>
reflections.<br>
<br>
Best--Pedro<br>
<br>
<br>
11/2019 a las 2:24, Howard Bloom escribi?:<br>
> pedro, thanks for this.<br>
><br>
> we are in a time of paradox. with street demonstrations in Asia, the <br>
> Middle East, Europe, and South America.<br>
><br>
> do these depend on the internet?? yes and no.? remember, in 1848 there <br>
> were roughly 57 revolutions worldwide, and there was no internet.? <br>
> even though there was the telegraph.<br>
><br>
> remember the j curve.? when expectations are raised, then not met, we <br>
> have revolt in the streets.<br>
><br>
> ironically, it's good times that raise expectations.? so good times <br>
> crimped by a momentary downturn can lead to street demonstrations.? it <br>
> happened in france in 1788 when bread prices went up. and it happened <br>
> in iran in 1979.<br>
><br>
> frankly, we need a theory of expectations, a theory of the role that <br>
> future projection plays in our lives, in our biology...and in the <br>
> forces of history.<br>
><br>
> with warmth and oomph--howard<br>
><br>
<br>
-- <br>
-------------------------------------------------<br>
Pedro C. Mariju?n<br>
Grupo de Bioinformaci?n / Bioinformation Group<br>
<br>
<a href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" target="_blank">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a><br>
<a href="http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/</a><br>
-------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
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<br>
Message: 2<br>
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 22:29:12 +0100<br>
From: "Joseph Brenner" <<a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" target="_blank">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>><br>
To: <<a href="mailto:annette.grathoff@is4si.org" target="_blank">annette.grathoff@is4si.org</a>>, <<a href="mailto:deacon@berkeley.edu" target="_blank">deacon@berkeley.edu</a>><br>
Cc: fis <<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Fis] The Age of Discord. The Foundations of<br>
DIS-information Science<br>
Message-ID: <B8F3862541724D52A4248EEB0DB62781@LAPTOPR7Q1BSBB><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"<br>
<br>
Dear Colleagues,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I thank both those of you who commented and those who did not. I would like<br>
to understand the latter - why there were only 6 responses: was my<br>
formulation in fact too 'political'? Do people think that negative things<br>
like disinformation don't require analysis? The key things I learned: <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Annette: <br>
<br>
Three clear contributions:<br>
<br>
1) Understanding disinformation and misinformation is part of a full<br>
conceptualization of information. <br>
<br>
2) Principles applying to them may have essential implications for the<br>
underlying physics (and other sciences).<br>
<br>
3) We should list again the things we do not understand as a key part of our<br>
strategy.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Jaime:<br>
<br>
A melancholy posting. I had thought human beings possessed recursive levels<br>
of cognitive processing such that even disinformation and selfish behavior<br>
are the not the results of blind instinct alone. When those capacities<br>
atrophy . . . <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Krassimir:<br>
<br>
1) The strengths and weaknesses of what it is to be human.<br>
<br>
2) Avoid lies and liar paradoxes. They are binary 'traps' for thought.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Terry:<br>
<br>
Thank you. Clearly,<br>
<br>
1) Normative aspects of information should be an essential part of a full<br>
scientific conceptualization of it.<br>
<br>
2) Lets start with just one way to mitigate the operation of disinformation.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Joseph:<br>
<br>
I mention a term I just heard for the first time on Swiss TV - infobesity.<br>
<br>
We need an informational biotope to treat this.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I look forward to a next round, even though this is not a formal discussion<br>
topic.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Best wishes. <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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<br>
Message: 3<br>
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 13:55:49 -0800<br>
From: "Terrence W. DEACON" <<a href="mailto:deacon@berkeley.edu" target="_blank">deacon@berkeley.edu</a>><br>
To: Joseph Brenner <<a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" target="_blank">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>><br>
Cc: fis <<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>>, Annette Grathoff<br>
<<a href="mailto:annette.grathoff@is4si.org" target="_blank">annette.grathoff@is4si.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Fis] The Age of Discord. The Foundations of<br>
DIS-information Science<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:CAOJbPRKSqSUgQwrpaGd%2BJMew31Ef%2ByfKp1BG6XCOe_-bmDTf1g@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank">CAOJbPRKSqSUgQwrpaGd+JMew31Ef+yfKp1BG6XCOe_-bmDTf1g@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
As a starting point I recommend a book just out by Frederik Stjernfelt<br>
& Anne Mette Lauritzen<br>
titled "Your Post has been removed"<br>
It is available free online as a pdf<br>
<a href="https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007%2F978-3-030-25968-6.pdf" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007%2F978-3-030-25968-6.pdf</a><br>
<br>
On Wed, Nov 27, 2019 at 1:29 PM Joseph Brenner <<a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" target="_blank">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>><br>
wrote:<br>
<br>
> Dear Colleagues,<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> I thank both those of you who commented and those who did not. I would<br>
> like to understand the latter - why there were only 6 responses: was my<br>
> formulation in fact too ?political?? Do people think that negative things<br>
> like disinformation don?t require analysis? The key things I learned:<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> Annette:<br>
><br>
> Three clear contributions:<br>
><br>
> 1) Understanding disinformation and misinformation is part of a full<br>
> conceptualization of information.<br>
><br>
> 2) Principles applying to them may have essential implications for the<br>
> underlying physics (and other sciences).<br>
><br>
> 3) We should list again the things we do *not *understand as a key part<br>
> of our strategy.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> Jaime:<br>
><br>
> A melancholy posting. I had thought human beings possessed recursive<br>
> levels of cognitive processing such that even disinformation and selfish<br>
> behavior are the not the results of blind instinct alone. When those<br>
> capacities atrophy . . .<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> Krassimir:<br>
><br>
> 1) The strengths and weaknesses of what it is to be human.<br>
><br>
> 2) Avoid lies *and *liar paradoxes. They are binary ?traps? for thought.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> Terry:<br>
><br>
> Thank you. Clearly,<br>
><br>
> 1) Normative aspects of information should be an essential part of a full<br>
> scientific conceptualization of it.<br>
><br>
> 2) Lets start with just *one *way to mitigate the operation of<br>
> disinformation.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> Joseph:<br>
><br>
> I mention a term I just heard for the first time on Swiss TV ? infobesity.<br>
><br>
> We need an informational biotope to treat this.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> I look forward to a next round, even though this is not a formal<br>
> discussion topic.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> Best wishes.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Professor Terrence W. Deacon<br>
University of California, Berkeley<br>
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</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div>Jaime F. Cárdenas-García, PhD, PE</div><div><a href="mailto:JFCardenasGarcia@gmail.com" target="_blank">JFCardenasGarcia@gmail.com</a></div><div>(240) 498-7556 (cell)<br></div><div><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>