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<DIV><FONT size=4>Dear Jose (and FIS Colleagues),</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>I like your metaphor: The brain is the ultimate
illusionist!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>You are quite right – really the brain creates mental models
which have to be confirmed by the input from sensors.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>In the case of coinciding (possibly – partially) of input with
created mental models, the brain assumes input as “information”</FONT><FONT
size=4>.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>The same process exist internally when a new created mental
model is compared with already existing ones.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>In this, second, case, the brain assumes the new mental model
as “information” if it coincides (possibly – partially) with existing mental
models.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>That’s all folks!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Friendly greetings</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Krassimir</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=jlpvjlpv@gmail.com
href="mailto:jlpvjlpv@gmail.com">jose luis perez velazquez</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, October 26, 2019 12:31 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=guevara.erra@gmail.com
href="mailto:guevara.erra@gmail.com">GUEVARA ERRA RAMON MARIANO</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Cc:</B> <A title=fis@listas.unizar.es
href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es">fis</A> ; <A title=pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es
href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es">Pedro C. Marijuan</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Fis] FIS discussions. Other Info
Conundrums</DIV></DIV></DIV>
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<DIV dir=ltr>Yes, Ramon, as an Arctic "explorer" I can tell you my experience in
some days of snow storm and the day after, all was white, no borders could be
seen, looking, up, down or straight ahead, all continuous white, no
ground, no sky. A remarkable experience I had never experienced before. If I had
continued tehre for several minutes or hours (which I would have done for the
sake of the experiment but the temperature was a bit cool...) I would have
started to hallucinate, for, as you say, "it's problematic for the brain
to have a very uninformative background". It is well known that in the absence
of sensory input the brain starts making its own (this underlies the famous
Ganzfeld experiments). You can experience this in just a couple of minutes
looking at a homogeneous white patch (sky, a wall...), you will start seeing
colours in a few minutes or even seconds. The brain is the ultimate illusionist.
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>
<DIV class=gmail_attr dir=ltr>On Fri, Oct 25, 2019 at 6:34 PM GUEVARA ERRA RAMON
MARIANO <<A
href="mailto:guevara.erra@gmail.com">guevara.erra@gmail.com</A>>
wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
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<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV>Pedro, I like your hypercommunication paradox. Indeed, it would be
interesting to quantify how much information we can deal with, but it is clear
that nowadays is too much. Some websites even advice to cut on it. I see very
young people are sometimes unable to focus on anything. It's also problematic
for the brain to have a very uninformative background. As an example out of
many, it was reported by polar explorers that traveling in the Artic in winter
was a very difficult experience because of the lack of landmarks. Some even
report on some sort of blindness because of the snow when there are no salient
aspects of the landscape. Apparently, similar effects can be obtained during
meditation by repetition of certain phrases. Some sort of emptiness. Jose can
perhaps say more both on meditation and Artic traveling. <BR></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Bruno, thank you for your theory about good parents. I am tempted to use
it with my own children. What would happen if the child allways behave
badly?</DIV>
<DIV>According to this model we should anyway say YES sometimes (and NO to
well behaved children). Extremely interesting dynamical system !</DIV>
<DIV>It reminds me of a magical number Gell - Mann mentioned in its book "The
quark and the jaguar". If I remember well, during the bombing of Germany in
WWII the Royal Air Force sent sometimes planes without bombs. They were
bluffing. That created problems to the German anti-aircfaft warfare. They
didn't know when to react. According to Gell - Mann, the optimal bluffing
strategy was to use fake bombers ones every seventh on average. Apprently
there are animals using a similar strategy. A type of monkey have sentinels
watching for leopards and eagles. If they cheat, however, they can get the
food of their escaping colleagues. They do that once in a while, apprently
with probability 1/7 ! If they do more than other monkeys stop reacting
to real danger. <BR></DIV>
<DIV>Best,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Ramon<BR></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>
<DIV class=gmail_attr dir=ltr>On Fri, Oct 25, 2019 at 4:47 PM Karl Javorszky
<<A href="mailto:karl.javorszky@gmail.com"
target=_blank>karl.javorszky@gmail.com</A>> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">
<DIV>If we had a catechism of zaragoza, it would be getting new lines
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>1. There are two interacting logical systems</DIV>
<DIV>2. Information being the description of what is not here (in logical
system A), it's being here (in logical system B) used to make us run in
circles</DIV>
<DIV>3. Symbols always present carry no information </DIV>
<DIV>4. Symbols that refer not to states of the world are useless or
worse</DIV>
<DIV>5. Useful are symbols that refer to changes in the world </DIV>
<DIV>6. Optimal useful are symbols that can be of two states (then up to 50%
of all alternatives can be pointed out as remaining alternatives: maximal
information content)</DIV>
<DIV>7. Useful yes practical not. A stone mason's chisel is useful when
wanting to carve hieroglyphs, but impractical if it can only chisel
0,1.</DIV>
<DIV>8. The elementar symbols 0,1 can not be related among each other,
because they lack properties that establish relationships. </DIV>
<DIV>9. What we look for are relationships among facts represented by
symbols. </DIV>
<DIV>10. Because we agree that there are right and wrong ways to raise
children, by depicting relationships among facts . This in a consistent way,
so that they can understand, is the right way.</DIV>
<DIV>11. We of course assume that there are indeed relationships among facts
(to be taught to the children), we only have issues with the language.
</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>
<DIV class=gmail_attr dir=ltr>jose luis perez velazquez <<A
href="mailto:jlpvjlpv@gmail.com" target=_blank>jlpvjlpv@gmail.com</A>>
schrieb am Fr., 25. Okt. 2019 16:13:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">
<DIV dir=ltr>Indeed, "It takes energy/information to rise well the kids",
and for that matter, to do anything, for, as Ramon already pointed out a
few days ago, Landauer's, and possibly others' , works showed that changes
in information are accompanied by changes in energy... which perhaps are
giving us a clue as to how to proceed to resolve the "information
conundrum"
<DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV></DIV>
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<DIV class=gmail_attr dir=ltr>On Fri, Oct 25, 2019 at 3:04 PM Bruno
Marchal <<A href="mailto:marchal@ulb.ac.be" rel=noreferrer
target=_blank>marchal@ulb.ac.be</A>> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">Hi
Jose,<BR><BR><BR>> On 24 Oct 2019, at 16:52, jose luis perez
velazquez <<A href="mailto:jlpvjlpv@gmail.com" rel=noreferrer
target=_blank>jlpvjlpv@gmail.com</A>> wrote:<BR>> <BR>>
Hola. I cannot help but commenting that, regarding your point 3-
The hypercommunication paradox, it is reminiscent of what we see in the
nervous system, too much communication (in our case we study synchrony)
is bad, too little is equally bad, healthy communication requires medium
values... Ramon and I expounded this topic in the last January's New
year lecture, if you may recall. I always enjoy when same phenomenon may
emerge in very different levels, in this case from neurons
to "civilised” societies<BR><BR>This reminds me a theory I made about
good and bad parents.<BR><BR>Bad parents are those who say always “No”
to their kids, or always “Yes”.<BR><BR>Good parents are those giving a
reasonable amount of (senseful) “yes” and “no”.<BR><BR>I did not relate
this with information content, but here too, things go well when the
kids get a reasonable amount of mixed “yes” and “no” (high information
content).<BR><BR>To be sure there are also the ultra-bad (perverse)
parents, which gives a reasonable amount of “yes” and “no”, but in a
perverse way making “yes” and “no” losing their content. That case is
more rare, of course.<BR><BR>It takes energy/information to rise well
the kids, but, fortunately perhaps, it takes also energy/information for
destroying them. Note that only in the case of good and ultra-bad parent
does the *content* of information plays a
role.<BR><BR>Best,<BR><BR>Bruno Marchal<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>>
<BR>> Au revoir<BR>> <BR>>
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