<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Dear Krassimir,<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On 5 Oct 2019, at 21:32, Krassimir Markov <<a href="mailto:markov@foibg.com" class="">markov@foibg.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="">
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<div class="">Dear Malcolm, Michel, Mark, and FIS Colleagues,</div>
<div class="">Thank you for the letters!</div>
<div class=""><font size="4" class=""></font> </div>
<div class=""><em class="">Answer to Malcolm :</em></div>
<div class=""><em class=""></em> </div>
<div class="">“If you can explain how these kinds of thoughts originate and function,
then you have the beginning of scientific dialogue”. </div>
<div class="">Yes, I can. You may see this in the paper:</div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class=""> Kr. Markov, Kr. Ivanova, I. Mitov. <strong class=""><em class="">Basic Structure
of the General Information Theory</em></strong>. International Journal
“Information Theories and Applications”, Vol.14, No.: 1, 2007. pp.
5-19. <a href="http://www.foibg.com/ijita/vol14/ijita14-1-p01.pdf" class="">http://www.foibg.com/ijita/vol14/ijita14-1-p01.pdf</a>
</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div><br class=""></div><div>Thank you for this link. It might help to see how much “non-mechanism” is required. There are reference to an external world, which is unclear to me. I think also that self-reflexive information is provided by the Löbian machine, i.e. the universal machine which knows (in the Gödel-Theatetical sense) that she is universal. That happens quickly, as a consequence of adding enough “induction axiom”. Peano arithmetic is the most well known Löbian machine. The mathematical theology I study applies to them (and are guessed-correctly by them). It helps such machine to refute all possible reductionist conception about them.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>Unfortunately I have a lot of work in October and November; my comments will be rare and sparse.</div><div><br class=""></div><div><br class=""></div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div style="font-size: 14pt; font-family: Calibri;" class="">
<div class=""> </div>
<div class="">And also, you nay see: </div>
<div class=""> Krassimir Markov, Christophe Menant, Stanley N Salthe, Yixin
Zhong, Karl Javorszky, Alex Hankey, Loet Leydesdorff, Guy A Hoelzer, Jose Javier
Blanco Rivero, Robert K. Logan, Sungchul Ji, Mark Johnson, David Kirkland,
Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic. <strong class=""><em class="">Data versus Information</em></strong>.
International Journal “Information Theories and Applications”, Vol. 24, Number
4, 2017. pp. 303 -321. <a href="http://www.foibg.com/ijita/vol24/ijita24-04-p01.pdf" class="">http://www.foibg.com/ijita/vol24/ijita24-04-p01.pdf</a>
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<div class=""> </div>
<div class=""><em class="">Answer to Michel and Mark:</em> </div>
<div class=""><font size="4" class=""></font> </div>
<div class="">Both religion and science, in difference to Durkheim ( <a href="http://home.ku.edu.tr/~mbaker/cshs503/durkheimreligiouslife.pdf" class="">http://home.ku.edu.tr/~mbaker/cshs503/durkheimreligiouslife.pdf</a>
),</div>
<div class="">are created by human’s consciousness in parallel but not as consequence one
from another. </div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class="">Yes, religious thinking is the main base for morality and social uniting
and unifying as Durkheim had written. </div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class="">But the science is another type of thinking. </div>
<div class="">In details I had explained this in the paper: </div>
<div class=""><font size="4" class=""></font> </div>
<div class="">K. Markov, S. Poryazov, K. Ivanova, I. Mitov, V. Markova.
<strong class=""><em class="">Culture Aspects of Inforaction</em></strong>. Proceedings of the
XIII-th Int. Conf. "Knowledge-Dialogue-Solution" KDS-2007. Varna, Bulgaria.
Sofia, ITHEA, 2007, pp. 625-633. International Journal INFORMATION TECHNOLOGIES
& KNOWLEDGE, Volume 2, 2008, Number 4, pp. 335-342.
<a href="http://www.foibg.com/ijitk/ijitk-vol02/ijitk02-4-p06.pdf" class="">http://www.foibg.com/ijitk/ijitk-vol02/ijitk02-4-p06.pdf</a> </div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class=""><font size="4" class=""></font> </div>
<div class=""><em class=""><strong class="">At the end, why I stress on excluding the religion from our
discussions?</strong></em> </div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class="">Because all relations to believing and faith are kind of advertisement of
religion but not constructive discussion.</div>
<div class=""><font size="4" class=""></font> </div>
<div class="">For instance, If one believes, than he/she needs only to eat fruits of
special kind of tree and all knowledge will be received. No need of science and
discussions!</div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class="">Please see for instance:</div>
<div class=""><font size="4" class=""></font> </div>
<div class=""><strong class=""><em class="">Common English Bible</em></strong>, Book of Genesis,
Chapter 3, Knowledge, not eternal life, 6 ; <a href="https://www.biblestudytools.com/ceb/genesis/3.html" class="">https://www.biblestudytools.com/ceb/genesis/3.html</a>
</div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class=""><strong class=""><em class="">QURAN</em></strong>, Sura 2, The Heifer al-Baqarah, 35 :
<a href="https://www.clearquran.com/002.html" class="">https://www.clearquran.com/002.html</a>
</div>
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<div class=""><font size="4" class=""></font> </div>
<div class="">Curiously, the primary knowledge received by Adam and Eve had been lost!
</div>
<div class="">They had eaten these fruits but what they only had understood was that they
were naked! </div>
<div class="">Were they so stupid? :-)</div>
<div class=""><font size="4" class=""></font> </div>
<div class=""><font size="4" class="">Friendly greetings</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" class="">Krassimir</font></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div>I could agree of banning talk on religion based on revelation, but not on theology when done with the scientific attitude: i.e. which never claim to be true, and always proposed testable/refutable theories, like the theology of machine, which is testable as it contains the whole of physics in a deducible way.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>The real sin is when we separate science and theology. That is a trick by tyran to appropriate religion, as a means for authoritarian leadership. The machine somehow already warns us: institutionalised religion can only be sort of fraud. Doubting is not a sin, public certainty is the sin.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>Very often, people who say that they have no religion, are people imposing their religion to others, not always consciously. We can doubt the notion of the physical universe, or Aristotelian criteria of reality (what we see/observe/measure), as the antic dream argument is supposed to make us doubt about.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>Bruno</div><div><br class=""></div><div>Bruno Marchal</div><div>IRIDIA ULB</div><div><br class=""></div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div style="font-size: 14pt; font-family: Calibri;" class="">
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<div class=""><font size="4" class="">-------------------------------------</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" class="">Prof. Dr. Krassimir Markov</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" class="">Honorary professor</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" class="">University of telecommunications and posts</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" class="">Sofia, Bulgaria</font></div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class=""><font size="4" class="">President of the ITHEA® Institute of Information Theories and
Applications</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" class="">and the ITHEA® International Scientific Society</font></div>
<div class=""><font size="4" class=""></font> </div>
<div class=""><font size="4" class=""><a href="http://www.ithea.org/" class="">www.ithea.org</a></font></div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class=""><font size="4" class="">e-mail: <a href="mailto:president@ithea.org" class="">president@ithea.org</a> </font> </div>
<div class=""><font size="4" class=""></font> </div>
<div class=""><font size="4" class=""></font> </div>
<div class=""> </div>
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<div class=""> </div>
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<div class=""> </div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class="">From: Mark Johnson </div>
<div class="">Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2019 6:07 PM</div>
<div class="">To: fis </div>
<div class="">Subject: Re: [Fis] Fis Digest, Vol 61, Issue 9 (Please, be more
realistic)</div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class="">Dear all, </div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class="">Durkheim's analysis of the "Elementary forms of Religious Life" is not a
bad starting point for clarifying what we are talking about (or in the case of
Karl, what we might not want to talk about).</div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class="">Durkheim distinguishes "belief" from "ritual". This seems sensible. Both
have an information content, don't they?</div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class="">The information of belief might be dismissed as "fake news" (or is that a
kind of heresy?!) or not, but the information content of ritual is partly
diachronic in a way that belief isn't, and presents a case where one might
identify a relation between the diachronic dimension of a rite and the
synchronic dimension of a belief. Theatre, music and media share these
properties, and we admit them to our domain of inquiry - and they may well have
their roots in ritual (see Jane Harrison - "Ancient art and Ritual"). Since our
modern lives are no less replete with rituals (like writing on FIS) it seems
highly relevant to explore their information content.</div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class="">For a more philosophical view on this, Simon Critchley's new book "Tragedy,
the Greeks and Us" is excellent in his unpicking of the Platonist view of the
world and upholding the diachronic ambiguity of ancient drama (and by extension,
ritual, or what Critchley calls "meta-ritual")</div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class="">Best wishes,</div>
<div class=""><font size="4" class=""></font> </div>
<div class="">Mark</div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class="">On Sat, 5 Oct 2019, 13:03 Michel Petitjean,
<<a href="mailto:petitjean.chiral@gmail.com" class="">petitjean.chiral@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class="">Dear All,</div>
<div class="">We receive "information" from family, teachers, TV, journals,</div>
<div class="">internet, preachers, and so on.</div>
<div class="">I am ready to discuss about information in the context of religious</div>
<div class="">beliefs and other beliefs, and I am ok to hear about information in</div>
<div class="">such contexts on the FIS forum.</div>
<div class="">The contrast is considerable between the FIS forum and what is stated</div>
<div class="">by many Churches: "no doubt about what is taught: divin laws apply;</div>
<div class="">doubting is a sin" (doubting deserves blame, and sometimes death, as</div>
<div class="">say some fanatics).</div>
<div class="">It was true along the past centuries, and alas it is still true now
at</div>
<div class="">many places.</div>
<div class="">Older are the "fake news", more people believe in them.</div>
<div class="">Many people doubt about the validity of the content of recent books,</div>
<div class="">but, for older books such that holy scriptures, it is amazing to see</div>
<div class="">that so few people doubt about the validity of their content: their</div>
<div class="">content IS true.</div>
<div class="">Well, I forget that there are several contents and that the hundred
of</div>
<div class="">millions of believers disagree between themselves.</div>
<div class="">At least many millions of believers should be wrong, if not all :)</div>
<div class="">Are my words shocking?</div>
<div class="">If yes, apologies.</div>
<div class="">It is ok to discuss information in scientific contexts (include
social</div>
<div class="">sciences, humanities, etc.), but if you prefer to discuss about</div>
<div class="">information from a religious point of view, it is ok, too.</div>
<div class="">You may decide.</div>
<div class="">Sincerely,</div>
<div class="">Michel.</div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class="">Michel Petitjean</div>
<div class="">Université de Paris, BFA, CNRS UMR 8251, INSERM ERL U1133, F-75013 Paris,
France</div>
<div class="">Phone: +331 5727 8434; Fax: +331 5727 8372</div>
<div class="">E-mail: <a href="mailto:petitjean.chiral@gmail.com" class="">petitjean.chiral@gmail.com</a> (preferred),</div>
<div class="">
<a href="mailto:michel.petitjean@univ-paris-diderot.fr" class="">michel.petitjean@univ-paris-diderot.fr</a></div>
<div class=""><a href="http://petitjeanmichel.free.fr/itoweb.petitjean.html" class="">http://petitjeanmichel.free.fr/itoweb.petitjean.html</a></div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class="">Le sam. 5 oct. 2019 à 12:26, Malcolm Dean <<a href="mailto:malcolmdean@gmail.com" class="">malcolmdean@gmail.com</a>> a
écrit :</div>
<div class="">>></div>
<div class="">>> Message: 1</div>
<div class="">>> Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2019 12:02:45 +0300</div>
<div class="">>> From: "Krassimir Markov" <<a href="mailto:markov@foibg.com" class="">markov@foibg.com</a>></div>
<div class="">>> To: "Malcolm Dean" <<a href="mailto:malcolmdean@gmail.com" class="">malcolmdean@gmail.com</a>>, "FIS"</div>
<div class="">>>
<<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" class="">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>></div>
<div class="">>> Subject: [Fis] Please, be more realistic!</div>
<div class="">>></div>
<div class="">>> Dear Malcolm,</div>
<div class="">>> "religious, mythical or esoteric kinds of thoughts" belong to the
class of believing.</div>
<div class="">>> Believing is nice psychological condition but not constructive and
useful.</div>
<div class="">>> For instance, I believe that I am a rich man, but unfortunately in
real I am not!</div>
<div class="">>> Because of this I could not take part in very interesting FIS and
IS4IS conferences!</div>
<div class="">>> Please, be more realistic!</div>
<div class="">>> Friendly greetings</div>
<div class="">>> Krassimir</div>
<div class="">>></div>
<div class="">> My point is that even if your bias is accepted as absolutely true,
just for one moment, that does not excuse any definition of Information from
having to explain their origins and functions.</div>
<div class="">></div>
<div class="">> Dismissing them as beliefs, psychological conditions, and "not
constructive and useful" is not itself "constructive or useful." It is your
opinion and worldview.</div>
<div class="">></div>
<div class="">> If you can explain how these kinds of thoughts originate and function,
then you have the beginning of scientific dialogue. Otherwise, not. And such an
explanation, for the purpose of this forum, should be limited to the nature of
Information, and not other hypotheses such as we can find in Anthropology and
Evolutionary Psychology.</div>
<div class="">></div>
<div class="">> Malcolm Dean</div>
<div class="">> Editor: How Information Creates Its Observer (Lerner 2019)</div>
<div class="">> Member, Higher Cognitive Affinity Group, BRI</div>
<div class="">> Research Affiliate, Human Complex Systems, UCLA</div>
<div class="">></div>
<div class="">> So it is necessary for you to be abreast of everything; on the one
hand, the unshakable heart of well-rounded truth, and, on the other, the
opinions of mortals, in which there is no true conviction. (Parmenides, Fragment
24)</div>
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