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<DIV>Dear Malcolm, Michel, Mark, and FIS Colleagues,</DIV>
<DIV>Thank you for the letters!</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><EM>Answer to Malcolm :</EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM></EM> </DIV>
<DIV>“If you can explain how these kinds of thoughts originate and function,
then you have the beginning of scientific dialogue”. </DIV>
<DIV>Yes, I can. You may see this in the paper:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> Kr. Markov, Kr. Ivanova, I. Mitov. <STRONG><EM>Basic Structure
of the General Information Theory</EM></STRONG>. International Journal
“Information Theories and Applications”, Vol.14, No.: 1, 2007. pp.
5-19. <A
href="http://www.foibg.com/ijita/vol14/ijita14-1-p01.pdf">http://www.foibg.com/ijita/vol14/ijita14-1-p01.pdf</A>
</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>And also, you nay see: </DIV>
<DIV> Krassimir Markov, Christophe Menant, Stanley N Salthe, Yixin
Zhong, Karl Javorszky, Alex Hankey, Loet Leydesdorff, Guy A Hoelzer, Jose Javier
Blanco Rivero, Robert K. Logan, Sungchul Ji, Mark Johnson, David Kirkland,
Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic. <STRONG><EM>Data versus Information</EM></STRONG>.
International Journal “Information Theories and Applications”, Vol. 24, Number
4, 2017. pp. 303 -321. <A
href="http://www.foibg.com/ijita/vol24/ijita24-04-p01.pdf">http://www.foibg.com/ijita/vol24/ijita24-04-p01.pdf</A>
</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><EM>Answer to Michel and Mark:</EM> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>Both religion and science, in difference to Durkheim ( <A
href="http://home.ku.edu.tr/~mbaker/cshs503/durkheimreligiouslife.pdf">http://home.ku.edu.tr/~mbaker/cshs503/durkheimreligiouslife.pdf</A>
),</DIV>
<DIV>are created by human’s consciousness in parallel but not as consequence one
from another. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Yes, religious thinking is the main base for morality and social uniting
and unifying as Durkheim had written. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>But the science is another type of thinking. </DIV>
<DIV>In details I had explained this in the paper: </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>K. Markov, S. Poryazov, K. Ivanova, I. Mitov, V. Markova.
<STRONG><EM>Culture Aspects of Inforaction</EM></STRONG>. Proceedings of the
XIII-th Int. Conf. "Knowledge-Dialogue-Solution" KDS-2007. Varna, Bulgaria.
Sofia, ITHEA, 2007, pp. 625-633. International Journal INFORMATION TECHNOLOGIES
& KNOWLEDGE, Volume 2, 2008, Number 4, pp. 335-342.
http://www.foibg.com/ijitk/ijitk-vol02/ijitk02-4-p06.pdf </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><EM><STRONG>At the end, why I stress on excluding the religion from our
discussions?</STRONG></EM> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Because all relations to believing and faith are kind of advertisement of
religion but not constructive discussion.</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>For instance, If one believes, than he/she needs only to eat fruits of
special kind of tree and all knowledge will be received. No need of science and
discussions!</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Please see for instance:</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><EM>Common English Bible</EM></STRONG>, Book of Genesis,
Chapter 3, Knowledge, not eternal life, 6 ; <A
href="https://www.biblestudytools.com/ceb/genesis/3.html">https://www.biblestudytools.com/ceb/genesis/3.html</A>
</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><EM>QURAN</EM></STRONG>, Sura 2, The Heifer al-Baqarah, 35 :
<A
href="https://www.clearquran.com/002.html">https://www.clearquran.com/002.html</A>
</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>Curiously, the primary knowledge received by Adam and Eve had been lost!
</DIV>
<DIV>They had eaten these fruits but what they only had understood was that they
were naked! </DIV>
<DIV>Were they so stupid? :-)</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Friendly greetings</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Krassimir</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>-------------------------------------</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Prof. Dr. Krassimir Markov</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Honorary professor</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>University of telecommunications and posts</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Sofia, Bulgaria</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>President of the ITHEA® Institute of Information Theories and
Applications</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>and the ITHEA® International Scientific Society</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4><A href="http://www.ithea.org">www.ithea.org</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>e-mail: <A
href="mailto:president@ithea.org">president@ithea.org</A> </FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>From: Mark Johnson </DIV>
<DIV>Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2019 6:07 PM</DIV>
<DIV>To: fis </DIV>
<DIV>Subject: Re: [Fis] Fis Digest, Vol 61, Issue 9 (Please, be more
realistic)</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Dear all, </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Durkheim's analysis of the "Elementary forms of Religious Life" is not a
bad starting point for clarifying what we are talking about (or in the case of
Karl, what we might not want to talk about).</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Durkheim distinguishes "belief" from "ritual". This seems sensible. Both
have an information content, don't they?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The information of belief might be dismissed as "fake news" (or is that a
kind of heresy?!) or not, but the information content of ritual is partly
diachronic in a way that belief isn't, and presents a case where one might
identify a relation between the diachronic dimension of a rite and the
synchronic dimension of a belief. Theatre, music and media share these
properties, and we admit them to our domain of inquiry - and they may well have
their roots in ritual (see Jane Harrison - "Ancient art and Ritual"). Since our
modern lives are no less replete with rituals (like writing on FIS) it seems
highly relevant to explore their information content.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>For a more philosophical view on this, Simon Critchley's new book "Tragedy,
the Greeks and Us" is excellent in his unpicking of the Platonist view of the
world and upholding the diachronic ambiguity of ancient drama (and by extension,
ritual, or what Critchley calls "meta-ritual")</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Best wishes,</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>Mark</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>On Sat, 5 Oct 2019, 13:03 Michel Petitjean,
<petitjean.chiral@gmail.com> wrote:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Dear All,</DIV>
<DIV>We receive "information" from family, teachers, TV, journals,</DIV>
<DIV>internet, preachers, and so on.</DIV>
<DIV>I am ready to discuss about information in the context of religious</DIV>
<DIV>beliefs and other beliefs, and I am ok to hear about information in</DIV>
<DIV>such contexts on the FIS forum.</DIV>
<DIV>The contrast is considerable between the FIS forum and what is stated</DIV>
<DIV>by many Churches: "no doubt about what is taught: divin laws apply;</DIV>
<DIV>doubting is a sin" (doubting deserves blame, and sometimes death, as</DIV>
<DIV>say some fanatics).</DIV>
<DIV>It was true along the past centuries, and alas it is still true now
at</DIV>
<DIV>many places.</DIV>
<DIV>Older are the "fake news", more people believe in them.</DIV>
<DIV>Many people doubt about the validity of the content of recent books,</DIV>
<DIV>but, for older books such that holy scriptures, it is amazing to see</DIV>
<DIV>that so few people doubt about the validity of their content: their</DIV>
<DIV>content IS true.</DIV>
<DIV>Well, I forget that there are several contents and that the hundred
of</DIV>
<DIV>millions of believers disagree between themselves.</DIV>
<DIV>At least many millions of believers should be wrong, if not all :)</DIV>
<DIV>Are my words shocking?</DIV>
<DIV>If yes, apologies.</DIV>
<DIV>It is ok to discuss information in scientific contexts (include
social</DIV>
<DIV>sciences, humanities, etc.), but if you prefer to discuss about</DIV>
<DIV>information from a religious point of view, it is ok, too.</DIV>
<DIV>You may decide.</DIV>
<DIV>Sincerely,</DIV>
<DIV>Michel.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Michel Petitjean</DIV>
<DIV>Université de Paris, BFA, CNRS UMR 8251, INSERM ERL U1133, F-75013 Paris,
France</DIV>
<DIV>Phone: +331 5727 8434; Fax: +331 5727 8372</DIV>
<DIV>E-mail: petitjean.chiral@gmail.com (preferred),</DIV>
<DIV>
michel.petitjean@univ-paris-diderot.fr</DIV>
<DIV>http://petitjeanmichel.free.fr/itoweb.petitjean.html</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Le sam. 5 oct. 2019 à 12:26, Malcolm Dean <malcolmdean@gmail.com> a
écrit :</DIV>
<DIV>>></DIV>
<DIV>>> Message: 1</DIV>
<DIV>>> Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2019 12:02:45 +0300</DIV>
<DIV>>> From: "Krassimir Markov" <markov@foibg.com></DIV>
<DIV>>> To: "Malcolm Dean" <malcolmdean@gmail.com>, "FIS"</DIV>
<DIV>>>
<fis@listas.unizar.es></DIV>
<DIV>>> Subject: [Fis] Please, be more realistic!</DIV>
<DIV>>></DIV>
<DIV>>> Dear Malcolm,</DIV>
<DIV>>> "religious, mythical or esoteric kinds of thoughts" belong to the
class of believing.</DIV>
<DIV>>> Believing is nice psychological condition but not constructive and
useful.</DIV>
<DIV>>> For instance, I believe that I am a rich man, but unfortunately in
real I am not!</DIV>
<DIV>>> Because of this I could not take part in very interesting FIS and
IS4IS conferences!</DIV>
<DIV>>> Please, be more realistic!</DIV>
<DIV>>> Friendly greetings</DIV>
<DIV>>> Krassimir</DIV>
<DIV>>></DIV>
<DIV>> My point is that even if your bias is accepted as absolutely true,
just for one moment, that does not excuse any definition of Information from
having to explain their origins and functions.</DIV>
<DIV>></DIV>
<DIV>> Dismissing them as beliefs, psychological conditions, and "not
constructive and useful" is not itself "constructive or useful." It is your
opinion and worldview.</DIV>
<DIV>></DIV>
<DIV>> If you can explain how these kinds of thoughts originate and function,
then you have the beginning of scientific dialogue. Otherwise, not. And such an
explanation, for the purpose of this forum, should be limited to the nature of
Information, and not other hypotheses such as we can find in Anthropology and
Evolutionary Psychology.</DIV>
<DIV>></DIV>
<DIV>> Malcolm Dean</DIV>
<DIV>> Editor: How Information Creates Its Observer (Lerner 2019)</DIV>
<DIV>> Member, Higher Cognitive Affinity Group, BRI</DIV>
<DIV>> Research Affiliate, Human Complex Systems, UCLA</DIV>
<DIV>></DIV>
<DIV>> So it is necessary for you to be abreast of everything; on the one
hand, the unshakable heart of well-rounded truth, and, on the other, the
opinions of mortals, in which there is no true conviction. (Parmenides, Fragment
24)</DIV>
<DIV>> _______________________________________________</DIV>
<DIV>> Fis mailing list</DIV>
<DIV>> Fis@listas.unizar.es</DIV>
<DIV>> http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</DIV>
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