<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Dear Joseph,<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On 18 Jun 2019, at 10:06, Joseph Brenner <<a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" class="">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="">
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<div class="Section1"><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" class=""><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";color:navy" class="">Dear
Bruno and All,<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" class=""><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";color:navy" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" class=""><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";
color:navy" class="">As a way of positioning Bruno’s theory, </span></font></div></div></div></o:smarttagtype></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div>To be sure, it is not my theory. It is Descartes theory rendered in the digital framework. The Church-Turing thesis can be used to argue that this is a very general hypothesis. I use (Digital) Mechanism, not because I believe it could be true, but because it transforms the philosophical question into mathematical problem, whose solution ca be tested with Nature.</div><div><br class=""></div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="PersonName" class=""><div lang="FR" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="word-wrap: break-word;-webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space" class=""><div class="Section1"><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" class=""><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";
color:navy" class="">I suggest that it is
a kind of inverse phenomenology.</span></font></div></div></div></o:smarttagtype></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div>I agree. The main result is that Mechanism reduces the mind-body problem into a derivation of the physical observable (appearance) from arithmetic. Then we can compare with Nature.</div><div><br class=""></div><div><br class=""></div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="PersonName" class=""><div lang="FR" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="word-wrap: break-word;-webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space" class=""><div class="Section1"><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" class=""><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";
color:navy" class=""> In standard phenomenology, one starts with phenomena
and places them in a framework of interpretation. In his Digital Mechanism, Bruno
starts with a mathematical framework, (to which he ascribes ontological
properties), and comes out with the phenomena, or some of them.</span></font></div></div></div></o:smarttagtype></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div>OK. The ontology is very simple, and we can take any terms of a Turing complete/universal theory. I could use combinators, lambda expressions, but I use natural numbers as people are familiar with them. We know since the work of Gödel, Turing, Post, Church that “very elementary arithmetic” is Turing universal. With my students I use the combinators, and many others. </div><div><br class=""></div><div>People should not believe more than 2+2=4, or that the equation x+2=4 admits a solution. The ontology of the numbers is no greater than the one assumed by a physicist using some differential equation, or an architect conceiving some buildings. </div><div><br class=""></div><div>I define sometimes an “arithmetical realist” as someone who does not complain when their kids learn that there is no biggest prime number.</div><div><br class=""></div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="PersonName" class=""><div lang="FR" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="word-wrap: break-word;-webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
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color:navy" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" class=""><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";
color:navy" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" class=""><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";
color:navy" class="">If there is – also – some dynamic, material principle underlying
what we perceive and what we are, Digital Mechanism should also generate <i class=""><span style="font-style:italic" class="">it</span></i>. </span></font></div></div></div></o:smarttagtype></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div>I don’t think arithmetic can generate substantial/ontological matter. It can generate only the appearances of it, by emulating the computations. The physical principles have to emerges as invariant in all relative computation.</div><div><br class=""></div><div><br class=""></div><div><br class=""></div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="PersonName" class=""><div lang="FR" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="word-wrap: break-word;-webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space" class=""><div class="Section1"><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" class=""><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";
color:navy" class="">If it does not, then DM may not be
wrong, but it is incomplete, and a careful reading of Bruno would appear (<i class=""><span style="font-style:italic" class="">sic</span></i>) to permit this.</span></font></div></div></div></o:smarttagtype></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div>Unfortunately, that will not work. If we use a richer ontology, the inflation of computational histories leads to incorrect predictions. It is an open problem if we can put the induction axioms in the ontologies. I have thought so, but I have some doubt.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>It is ontologically complete, and phenomenologically constructively incomplete, showing the mathematical shape of our abyssal intrinsic ignorance. But that obeys laws, and some can deduced from computer science/mathematical logic, by the machine’s themselves, or not.</div><div><br class=""></div><div><br class=""></div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="PersonName" class=""><div lang="FR" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="word-wrap: break-word;-webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space" class=""><div class="Section1"><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" class=""><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";
color:navy" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" class=""><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";
color:navy" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" class=""><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";
color:navy" class="">We all look for theories, at some time in our lives or another,
that will ‘carry us’ from one side of existence to the other. Bruno
– your best statements come at the send of your note. <o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:
11.0pt" class="">“I hesitate to make my point, because it is of no use in any
direct applications. It concerns more the afterlife than life per se.” </span></font><font size="2" color="navy" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" class=""><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";color:navy" class="">I then would be very glad
if, as a candidate for the ‘other part of the story’, you would
look at my logical phenomenology. Logic in Reality addresses life <i class=""><span style="font-style:italic" class="">per se</span></i>, and I claim it is of substantial
use in direct applications, last but not least informational processes<i class=""><span style="font-style:italic" class="">. </span></i></span></font></div></div></div></o:smarttagtype></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div>I have taken a look sometimes ago, and I don’t think it is problematic with the conclusion of mechanism.</div><div>But yes, as Otto Rossler put it, mechanism makes consciousness into a prison. We never escape it. The best we can hope is amnesia. I don’t like this, but science is not wishful thinking, and we can also still hope mechanism will be refuted. But nature confirms Mechanism, and basically refute already Weak Materialism (the belief that physics is the fundamental science for the ontology, or the belief in some Aristotelian primary matter/substance).</div><div><br class=""></div><div><br class=""></div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="PersonName" class=""><div lang="FR" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="word-wrap: break-word;-webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space" class=""><div class="Section1"><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" class=""><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";color:navy" class="">You say further:</span></font><span lang="EN-GB" class=""> “nature confirms all this (which again is not an argument for
saying it has to be true, of course) and can be helpful to get rid of the
reductionist 19th century conception of numbers and machines”.</span><font size="2" color="navy" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" class=""><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";color:navy" class=""> It thus would be
ridiculous to say that <b class=""><span style="font-weight:bold" class="">nature </span></b>is <i class=""><span style="font-style:italic" class="">limited </span></i>by the one function you attribute
to her here. </span></font></div></div></div></o:smarttagtype></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div>Nature and physics reappear at the phenomenological level, in a non limited form: indeed, it go farer than any effective mathematical theory, contains necessary continuous observable, and is fundamentally NOT computable, or at least contains non computable and non predictable events.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>Digital Physicalism assumes that the physical universe is computable. But that is directly refutable with or without Mechanism. Indeed, Digital physicalism entails Mechanism, and Mechanism entails, as I have shown, the negation of Digital Physicalism, so Digital Physicalism entails its own negation.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>If “I” am a machine, the reality in which I live cannot be a machine, or generated by a machine. </div><div><br class=""></div><div>Keep in mind that after Gödel we know that we know about noting about arithmetic already. Only a tiny part of it is computable. The main part is highly non computable, and the interesting intimation flows circulates on the frontier between the computable and the non computable.</div><div><br class=""></div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="PersonName" class=""><div lang="FR" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="word-wrap: break-word;-webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space" class=""><div class="Section1"><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" class=""><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";color:navy" class="">As long as you are not saying that man _<b class=""><i class=""><span style="font-weight:bold;font-style:italic" class="">is</span></i><i class=""><span style="font-style:italic" class="">_</span></i></b>, or is only, a machine, there is
room for discussion.</span></font></div></div></div></o:smarttagtype></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div><br class=""></div><div>This is slightly ambiguous. Would you say that a program which learn to play Chess and Go is only a machine? It is also a player of Go and Chess.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>In fact, when I say that Digital Mechanism kill reductionism, it is because the universal Turing machine itself is not just a machine. </div><div><br class=""></div><div>Identifying the soul with the knower, using standard definition in the literature, it is a theorem in Arithmetic that all universal machine cognitively enough rich to know (in a precise technical sense) that they are Turing universal, will know that she has a soul, and that her soul is not a machine, nor even something representable in any third person construct. Mechanism leads to a non representational theory of consciousness, soul, qualia, etc.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>The Digital Mechanist hypothesis is the thesis that there is no organ in our body which would not be amenable to be replaced by some artificial device, and concerning the brain, by one emulable by a Turing universal machine. The reasoning will follow if there is a substitution level where I would survive the substitution, even if the level is so low that I have to emulate the whole observable universe at the level of strings, with 10^100 decimals (to give an example of extremely low level of substitution. Most brain physiologist would suggest a much higher level, like the metabolism in the neurons and the glial cells.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>The universal machine does not know which computations support them, and it predicted that if we look below our substitution level we must find infinitely many computations, and a (quantum) logic of alternative realities, which is arguably confirmed by the quantum logic formalism. </div><div><br class=""></div><div>The whole point comes form results in mathematical logic. There is a tiny part of the arithmetical reality which is unboundedly rich in histories and meaning when viewed from inside by the universal machine/number.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>In the Aristotelian frame, this can be called super-atheism: no creator, no creation. Just number’s dream and relative information flows, and differentiating consciousness histories.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>In the Platonic frame, this provides a simple neo-pythagorean theology, or an interpretation of Plotinus and Proclus in pure arithmetic. </div><div><br class=""></div><div>Peano arithmetic (elementary arithmetic, i.e. very elementary arithmetic + the induction axioms) is already much more than a universal machine, indeed she already knows that she is Turing universal, and all the problems which go with that, including a perpetual hesitation between security and liberty/universality.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>Peano Arithmetic(*) already tell us that she is not “just” a machine, or a theory, or a code, or anything representable with words or numbers.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>---</div><div><br class=""></div><div>Just to help:</div><div><br class=""></div><div>(*) Peano Arithmetic is </div><div><br class=""></div><div>Classical Logic,</div><div><br class=""></div><div>+</div><div><br class=""></div><div>Very elementary arithmetic, which is the seven axioms:</div><div><br class=""></div><div>1) 0 ≠ s(x) (0 is not the successor of a number),<br class="">2) s(x) = s(y) -> x = y (different numbers have different successors),<br class="">3) x = 0 v Ey(x = s(y)) (except for 0, all numbers have a predecessor),<br class="">4) x+0 = x (if you add zero to a number, you get that number),<br class="">5) x+s(y) = s(x+y) (if you add a number x to the successor of a number y, you get the successor of x added to y),<br class="">6) x*0=0 (if you multiply a number by 0, you get 0)<br class="">7) x*s(y)=(x*y)+x (if you multiply a number x by the successor of y, you get the number x added to the multiplication of the number x with y),</div><div><br class=""></div><div>+</div><div><br class=""></div><div>The infinitely many inductions. That if for all arithmetical formula P</div><div><br class=""></div><div>P(0) & [For all n (P(n) -> P(s(n)))] ->. For all n P(n).</div><div><br class=""></div><div>Gödel has shown how to define Peano arithmetic in Arithmetic. This is captured by its famous “beweisbar" predicate. Gödel has seen, and Hilbert and Bernays have proven, that PA can prove its own incompleteness. Solovay has given in 1976 two modal logics arithmetically complete and sound for the logic of that arithmetical, and partially computable predicate: </div><div>- G for what the machine or PA can prove about its provability/consistency ability, and </div><div>- G*, the set of the true (even if non probable) proposition about the machine.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>G1*, that is G restricted on the partial computable) proves that all the platonic nuance on “belief” given by the neoplatonician, with bewesibar(‘p’) written []p (the modal logic of provability) are equivalent: </div><div><br class=""></div><div>G1* proves </div><div> p <-> []p <-> ([]p & p) <-> ([]p & <>t) <-> ([]p & <>t & p)</div><div><br class=""></div><div>But G proves non of them, making them obeying quite different logisc. The last modes are the material modes of the neoplatonist, but can be motivated through tough experiments, also, and they obey quantum logic. The ([]p & p) provides the first person, and it has an intuitionist logic.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>Those logics remains valid for all consistent effective extensions of PA. With mechanism, we are one, well, many, of them. I can prove that you are more than PA, but that could be a little long. Yes, the problem here is that this supposes some work in Mathematical Logic, which is not well taught, when taught at all.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>All the best,</div><div><br class=""></div><div>Bruno</div><div><br class=""></div><div><br class=""></div><div><br class=""></div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="PersonName" class=""><div lang="FR" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="word-wrap: break-word;-webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space" class=""><div class="Section1"><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" class=""><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";color:navy" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" class=""><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";
color:navy" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" class=""><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";
color:navy" class="">Best,<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" class=""><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";
color:navy" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" class=""><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";
color:navy" class="">Joseph<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
<div class="">
<div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
"Times New Roman"" class="">
<hr size="3" width="100%" align="center" tabindex="-1" class="">
</span></font></div><div class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><font size="2" face="Tahoma" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold" class="">From:</span></font></b><font size="2" face="Tahoma" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma" class="">
Fis [<a href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es" class="">mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es</a>] <b class=""><span style="font-weight:bold" class="">On
Behalf Of </span></b>Bruno Marchal<br class="">
<b class=""><span style="font-weight:bold" class="">Sent:</span></b> lundi, 17 juin 2019 13:12<br class="">
<b class=""><span style="font-weight:bold" class="">To:</span></b> fis<br class="">
<b class=""><span style="font-weight:bold" class="">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Fis] New
Perspectives. Reply to Bruno's Reply to Stan</span></font><font size="3" face="Times New Roman" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
"Times New Roman"" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
</div><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class="">Dear
Gordana,<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class="">I
will try to answer your questions. It is not easy, because this belongs to a
very hot subject, and what I say is based on counter-intuitive, and not very
well known, results in mathematical logic, which is not very well taught, if
taught at all.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class="">Note
also that I am using the Digital Mechanist hypothesis as a working hypothesis.
I never claim that it is true, and my work has only shown that it is testable,
but eventually I can conclude that the experimental evidences favours this
hypothesis.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
<div class="">
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt" type="cite" class="">
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class="">On
14 Jun 2019, at 06:45, Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic <<a href="mailto:gordana.dodig-crnkovic@mdh.se" class="">gordana.dodig-crnkovic@mdh.se</a>>
wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="SV" style="font-size:
11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#0432ff" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF" class="">I have a few questions to your answers
and would be happy if you can help me to understand.<u1:p class=""></u1:p></span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#0432ff" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF" class="">Here they come, following formulations
from your mail.<u1:p class=""></u1:p></span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:
11.0pt" class=""><u1:p class=""> </u1:p></span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-weight:bold" class="">“This seems to assume some
primary natural reality, isn’t it?”<u1:p class=""></u1:p></span></font></b><span lang="SV" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-weight:bold" class=""><u1:p class=""> </u1:p></span></font></b><span lang="SV" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><font size="2" color="#0432ff" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF;font-weight:bold" class="">Q: What is
meant by “primary natural reality”? <u1:p class=""></u1:p></span></font></b><span lang="SV" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#0432ff" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF" class=""><u1:p class=""> </u1:p></span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#0432ff" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF" class="">1. If it refers to the <b class=""><span style="font-weight:bold" class="">EXISTENCE</span></b> OF THE EXTERNAL/INTERNAL NATURAL
WORLD, I think this is the most reasonable hypothesis to start with:<u1:p class=""></u1:p></span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><font size="2" color="#0432ff" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF;font-weight:bold" class="">The
world/nature EXISTS. </span></font></b><font color="#0432ff" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#0432FF" class="">It is the fundamental assumption of all sciences which
are our best present knowledge about the world.</span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<u1:p class=""></u1:p>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#0432ff" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF" class="">Otherwise, if the world does not EXIST,
we can conclude any discussion about it.</span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class="">So,
this might already be in conflict with the Digital Mechanist hypothesis (simply
called Mechanism hereafter). I will come to that hypothesis later. What I will
say is derived in that theory.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class="">We
do agree that the physical-world/nature EXISTS. But with Mechanism, this is no
more something that we have to assume, its existence has to become a theorem in
the Mechanist theory. The physical reality does not disappear, but its
existence becomes phenomenological, and physics get reduced to arithmetic, a
bit like today most scientists would agree that chemistry is in principle
reducible to quantum physics, if we abstract from the level of
organisation. <o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class="">By
Mechanism (Digital Mechanism) I mean the assumption that there is a level of
description of my brain, or body, possibly including a finite part of the
environment, such that a digital emulation of my body made at that description
level would not change my first person conscious experience. <o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class="">Mechanism
is the belief that no organ in my body can’t be replaced by an artificial
prosthesis, and in particular, that we would survive, in the clinical usual
sense, with an artificial brain. Now, the level can be as much low as we want,
like copying the brain at the level of the quantum field description, using the
standard model of the particles, and using as many decimals as needed as long
as it is a finite number.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class="">Mechanism
implies that physics has to be recovered from a statistics on (pure) partially
computable number relations, and this will lead to the fact that neither matter
nor consciousness are Turing emulable, contrary to a widespread confusion.
Somehow, if “I” am a machine, everything else cannot be a machine.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class="">Eventually,
mechanism makes very elementary arithmetic into the theory of everything, but
any Turing-complete (rich enough to define the notion of computation) theory
can be used. Indeed, physics becomes independent of the ontological theory:
they all lead to the same physics.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class="">So,
to answer your question: YES, the physical reality exists. But NO, it is not
primary, which means that we don’t have to assume a natural world, we
have to explain its appearance from a theory of consciousness or from some
“theology”, in the pre-christian sense of the word. Today’s
theology is still in the hands of institutions which practice the argument of
authority, which is invalid with the scientific method.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class="">What
many people ignore is that the discovery of computation and computability has
been done by mathematician, and those notion have been shown to be even
*arithmetical*. A computer is an implementation in the physical reality of a
universal machine, which is an object already implemented in all universal
environment just through natural number relations. <o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class="">A
universal machine cannot distinguish a physical computations from an
arithmetical one, by introspection, and that enforce us to explain why the
physical laws must be reduced to a statistics on "number's dreams”
in arithmetic. This leads quickly to some “many-world”
interpretation of elementary arithmetic, and it is testable by comparing the
mathematics of that many-worlds, or better “many-histories”
interpretation of arithmetic (or Turing equivalent) with the observations.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><br class="">
<br class="">
<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
<div class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><u1:p class="">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#0432ff" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF" class=""> </span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#0432ff" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF" class="">2. The other question is <b class=""><span style="font-weight:bold" class="">HOW</span></b> that EXISTENCE of the world
outside/inside cognitive agents presents itself or unfolds in an agent in the
interaction with the world.<u1:p class=""></u1:p></span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#0432ff" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF" class="">That is the question of UMWELT, and the
construction of knowledge through information processing. (Natural information
processing = natural computation.)</span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</u1:p></div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class="">As
a consequence of above, the natural computation emerges from the arithmetical
computations. (I assume Mechanism all along).<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><br class="">
<br class="">
<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
<div class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p>
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#0432ff" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF" class="">The “primary natural
reality” reflects itself in a myriad of local “realities” in
cognizing agents. As we know from empirical observations, even though existence
of the world induces various information processes in various agents,
communities of agents are typically sharing common “languages”
about that “primary natural reality”.</span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class="">Yes.
If Mechanism would lead to solipsism, that would be enough for me to abandon
it. Fortunately, the universal machine discourse explains already why some
dreams get very long and sharable among population of universal
machine/numbers.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><br class="">
<br class="">
<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
<div class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p>
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#0432ff" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF" class="">That is true for bacterial as well as
for human communities. </span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class="">Note
that I discovered computer science in molecular biology books. I would have become
a biologist if I did not discover that the conceptual explanation of
reproduction (which fascinated me in biology) was already implemented in the
arithmetical reality. <o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class="">After
Gödel, we know that this is not a reductionist view, as such a reality is beyond
all possible effective theories. Here, sometimes people confuse the
arithmetical reality and the theories we built to put some light on that
reality. <o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><br class="">
<br class="">
<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
<div class="">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#0432ff" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF" class="">Languages reflect our ability to
collectively navigate “primary natural reality” and share common
references. So much so that we are able to commonly build a new semantic layer,
that is human culture, upon that “primary natural reality”.</span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class="">Why
primary? I am OK with what you say here, except that what you call
“primary natural reality” is no more primary. It is already a sort
of unavoidable social cultural building by the universal numbers in arithmetic.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class="">The
logical dependency is like this:<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class="">NUMBERS
=> CONSCIOUSNESS => PHYSICAL-REALITY => HUMAN-CONSCIOUSNESS<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class="">The
arithmetical structure, which follows from the definition of addition and
multiplication, determine a consciousness flux which differentiate itself in
arithmetic, and the natural world appearance emerges from the first person
(singular and plural) view of the universal numbers.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class="">Consciousness
can be quasi-axiomatically defined by<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class="">True,<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class="">Indubitable,<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class="">Immediate,<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class="">Non
provable,<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class="">Non
definable<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class="">+
(with Mechanism) invariant for some digital functional substitution made at
some description level.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><br class="">
<br class="">
<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
<div class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><u1:p class="">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:
11.0pt" class=""> </span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-weight:bold" class="">“As I have shown, this requires
a non computationalist theory of mind, which seems to me to be highly
speculative.”<u1:p class=""></u1:p></span></font></b><span lang="SV" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><font size="2" color="#0432ff" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF;font-weight:bold" class="">Q:</span></font></b><font color="#0432ff" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#0432FF" class=""> <b class=""><span style="font-weight:bold" class="">Why would that follow from the EXISTENCE of the world?</span></b>
<b class=""><span style="font-weight:bold" class="">What kind of phenomenon is that
“computation” which minds perform? </span></b>Is it the Turing
model of discrete sequential symbol manipulation – calculation of
mathematical function? </span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</u1:p></div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class="">Yes.
I sum up often Mechanism by “Yes Doctor + Church’s thesis”.
The notion of computations is the one discovered by many people like Emil Post,
Alan Turing, Alonzo Church. Gödel discovered it implicitly, and already show it
to be an arithmetical notion. He missed the Church-Turing thesis though, and
the consequence of mechanism.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class="">Computations
exists like prime number exists. The physical reality is secondary, and physics
is in principle reduced to very elementary arithmetic. <o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><br class="">
<br class="">
<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
<div class="">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#0432ff" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF" class="">It may at best describe linguistic part
of the mind.</span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class="">This
is described in the mind of the universal machine/number. Interestingly, they
can only describe a part of this. Many arithmetical truth concerning those
machine are extra-linguistic, and does not admit any third person description.
They are not definable.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class="">The
universal numbers/machine can be shown to have a soul (in Plato’s sense,
not Aristotle’s sense), and the universal numbers, in particular also
those implemented in the physical reality, already knows that they have a soul,
and that their soul are NOT a machine, nor anything describable in third person
term. It is more like the meaning, and like the syntax.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class="">In
fact, a universal machine can refute all complete effective theories that we
may use to study them. The universal machine is born universal dissident. They
break down all reductionist conception of themselves.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class="">After
Gödel and Tarski, we know that most of the arithmetical reality will be
unprovable by any machine, but a part of that non provable reality is still
experienceable and knowable by other (tag provability) diverse means. <o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><br class="">
<br class="">
<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
<div class="">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#0432ff" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF" class="">But mind as a natural process is both
data-based (even continuous data) </span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class="">OK.
Mechanism proves the necessary existence of at least one continuous observable,
even of a non computable one.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><br class="">
<br class="">
<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
<div class="">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#0432ff" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF" class="">and symbol based. Not Turing computable
in it entirety, </span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class="">OK.
Mechanism makes both consciousness and matter NON computable. That is why your
approach is interesting in practice, probably even necessary. With Mechanism,
only the assumption of primaries would be wrong. In arithmetic, The
machines are confronted all the time to a non entirely computable reality. The
machines are themselves only partial computable, and most of the arithmetical
reality is highly not computable, and plays a role in the development of mind.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><br class="">
<br class="">
<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
<div class="">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#0432ff" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF" class="">but “naturally computable”
i.e. the result of natural information processing performed by living embodied
minds.</span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class="">I
use computable in the mathematical sense of Church and Turing. I would use here
“naturally experienceable”, or “naturally manageable” or
something. I am aware of many attempt to define different sort of computations,
but they have no corresponding “Church’s thesis”, and
usually, they are Turing emulable, or they use non computable elements that it
is simpler to recover from the first person indeterminacy imposed by
incompleteness to all machines. If not, it looks like assuming something just
to add complications, when the complications is already there.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><br class="">
<br class="">
<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
<div class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><u1:p class="">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:
11.0pt" class=""> </span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-weight:bold" class="">“I am not sure we can avoid the
mind-body problem in a philosophy of information context</span></font></b><span lang="EN-US" class="">.”<u1:p class=""></u1:p></span><span lang="SV" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><font size="2" color="#0432ff" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF;font-weight:bold" class="">Q: Why?
Natural information processes in living organisms seem to me as the best way to
bridge the mind-body chasm</span></font></b><font color="#0432ff" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#0432FF" class="">. Mind is a result of a complex network of
networks of information processes going on in a cognizing agent. That process
is implemented in their bodies as a material substrate that is self-organized
structure growth from that <b class=""><span style="font-weight:bold" class="">“primary
natural reality”</span></b>. There is no contradiction between the
morphology (shape, structure, material) of an organism and its functions
(processes performed by that morphology. At least those organisms who have
nervous systems capable of representing their bodies and their relationships to
their environments can be seen as possessing intrinsic
“self-models” or simply having “self” or
“mind”. That “mind” is the result of the relationships
of its subsystems that constitute that “self”, that process which
for an organism makes a distinction between the “self” vs. the
world and the relationships between the two.<u1:p class=""></u1:p></span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#0432ff" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF" class="">Mind is a process, matter is its
substrate on which the process is going on. Those are inseparable in a living
organism. In-formation has it roots in the concept of formation (of a material
substrate). Matter and form are two aspects of the same reality. It is not a
problem, it is a way how we conceptualize the world, in order to manage its
complexity.</span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</u1:p></div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class="">With
mechanism, mind is a process. OK. But there is no substrate. That is a
necessary collective hallucination coming from the differentiation of
consciousness in arithmetic. <o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class="">This
is admittedly counter-intuitive/ There is no ontological/primary space, nor
time, nor particles, nor energy, nor waves, etc. But the conscious appearance
of this can be explained, in a precise way enough to be tested (and thanks to
quantum mechanics, which I predicted before realising that the physicists were
already there, we get confirmations of this).<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class="">With
Mechanism we are back at Pythagorus. There is only numbers and the only laws
are addition and multiplication. With this we can define computations, and the
appearance of ontological/primary space, time, particles, energy, waves,
… is explained by the theory of machine’s consciousness.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><br class="">
<br class="">
<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
<div class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><u1:p class="">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:
11.0pt" class=""> </span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-weight:bold" class="">“There are no evidences for
physicalism or for a physical primary reality, nor are there evidences for a
non computationalist theory of mind.”<u1:p class=""></u1:p></span></font></b><span lang="SV" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><font size="2" color="#0432ff" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF;font-weight:bold" class=""><u1:p class=""> </u1:p></span></font></b><span lang="SV" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><font size="2" color="#0432ff" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF;font-weight:bold" class="">Q: What is
meant with “physicalism” here?<u1:p class=""></u1:p></span></font></b><span lang="SV" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#0432ff" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF" class="">Wikipedia offers two different
definitions, <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physicalism" class="">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physicalism</a>
according to which<u1:p class=""></u1:p></span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><font size="2" color="#0432ff" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF;font-weight:bold" class="">Physicalism</span></font></b><font color="#0432ff" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#0432FF" class=""> is the </span></font><font color="#0432ff" class=""><span lang="SV" style="color:#0432FF" class=""><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphysical" title="Metaphysical" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">metaphysical</span></a></span></font><font color="#0432ff" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#0432FF" class=""> thesis assuming that<u1:p class=""></u1:p></span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#0432ff" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF" class="">a) <b class=""><span style="font-weight:bold" class="">"everything
is physical"</span></b>, that there is "nothing over and above"
the physical,</span></font><sup class=""><font color="#0432ff" class=""><span lang="SV" style="color:#0432FF" class=""><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physicalism#cite_note-1" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">[1]</span></a></span></font></sup><font color="#0432ff" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#0432FF" class=""> or <u1:p class=""></u1:p></span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#0432ff" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF" class="">b) that <b class=""><span style="font-weight:
bold" class="">everything </span></b></span></font><b class=""><font color="#0432ff" class=""><span lang="SV" style="color:#0432FF;font-weight:bold" class=""><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supervenience" title="Supervenience" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">supervenes</span></a></span></font></b><b class=""><font color="#0432ff" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#0432FF;font-weight:bold" class=""> on the physical</span></font></b><font color="#0432ff" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#0432FF" class="">.</span></font><sup class=""><font color="#0432ff" class=""><span lang="SV" style="color:#0432FF" class=""><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physicalism#cite_note-DStoljar-2" class="">[2]</a></span></font></sup><font color="#0432ff" class=""><span lang="SV" style="color:#0432FF" class=""> <u1:p class=""></u1:p></span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#0432ff" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="SV" style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF" class=""><u1:p class=""> </u1:p></span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#0432ff" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF" class="">Those are two very different proposals.
The first one is obviously false, as it negates all the emergent levels of
organization of the world above physics.</span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</u1:p></div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class="">I
agree.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class="">With
mechanism, the physical level is itself an emergent level of organisation above
arithmetic. Nature is no more primary in the sense that we can explain it
without an ontological commitment in some physical universe. <o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class="">It
is not exactly like a dream, but like infinitely many dreams statistically
interfering.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><br class="">
<br class="">
<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
<div class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p>
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#0432ff" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF" class="">The second one depends on what is meant
by “<b class=""><span style="font-weight:bold" class="">supervenience”</span></b>. If
it means that<b class=""><span style="font-weight:bold" class=""> </span></b>higher levels of
organization of matter-energy emerge from the lower ones bringing completely
new properties, it is in perfect agreement with what sciences today say about
the world and how they model the world.*<u1:p class=""></u1:p></span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#0432ff" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF" class="">Molecules are made of atoms but bring
completely new possibilities of structures, processes and interactions. Biology
is more than chemistry for the same reason. </span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class="">Yes,
but with mechanism, physicalism is false in the sense that the physical reality
is due to a psychological phenomenon. A very precise one, which should give the
laws of physics, so we can test empirically Mechanism, and the test made until
today confirms mechanism. That does not prove it to be true, of course.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><br class="">
<br class="">
<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
<div class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><u1:p class="">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#0432ff" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF" class=""> </span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><font size="2" color="#0432ff" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF;font-weight:bold" class="">Q: What
would be “a physical primary reality”?<u1:p class=""></u1:p></span></font></b><span lang="SV" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#0432ff" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF" class="">Am I wrong if I imagine that I cannot go
out of this room through its walls? Does not that mean that there is “a
physical primary reality” that stops me from doing so, no matter how much
I wish and try?</span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</u1:p></div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class="">Not
really. In most of my dreams, I cannot go through wall too. It just means that
there is wall, and that we cannot go through. It does not mean that a wall
really exist, just that some dreams are lawful, and this is what mechanism show
to exist statistically.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class="">Note
that with both Digital Mechanism, and quantum physics, we can go through wall
(!), but the probability of that event is shown, in quantum physics, to be very
rare for massive object, and yet common for very small object. That is used in
the miniaturisation of the transistor, which makes up the physical computer around
us.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><br class="">
<br class="">
<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
<div class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><u1:p class="">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:
11.0pt" class=""> </span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-weight:bold" class="">“Of course some people confuse
the evidences for physical laws with evidences that such laws are primary, but
that is just because they “believe” in some natural world to begin
with.”<u1:p class=""></u1:p></span></font></b><span lang="SV" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><font size="2" color="#0432ff" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF;font-weight:bold" class="">Q: What is
primary?</span></font></b><b class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-weight:bold" class=""> </span></b><font color="#0432ff" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#0432FF" class="">Indeed, physical laws
are not <b class=""><span style="font-weight:bold" class="">primary</span></b>, in the sense of
eternal and unchangeable, as they evolve with the universe*. </span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</u1:p></div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class="">I
am not sure if many physicist would agree with this. I don’t know a
physical laws which would have evolved, except in speculative theory used to
explain the big-bang. With mechanism, the laws of physics becomes eternal and
unchangeable laws derivable from their theology/psychology/biology, which are
themselves eternal and unchangeable, given that they belong to
arithmetic/computer science. The only things which change are the indexical
notion, like here and now, or me and you, which are related to interval view of
arithmetic from arithmetic. <o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class="">Physicalism
is mainly the idea that there is an ontological physical universe, and that the
fundamental laws on which everything supervene are the physical law. With
Mechanism this can be shown leading to contradiction, en eventually we need to
derive the physical laws from number psychology/theology. Then incompleteness
provides the tools for doing this, and to make the testing. Mechanism makes
metaphysics into a science, even an experimental science.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><br class="">
<br class="">
<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
<div class="">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#0432ff" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF" class="">Primary is the <b class=""><span style="font-weight:bold" class="">EXISTENCE</span></b> of the world that we all share
and experience.</span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class="">That
remains correct if by world you mean the (standard) arithmetical reality. The
physical world is an emergent organisation coming from the (non trivial and
irreducible) arithmetic, taken in its after-Gödel understanding. <o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class="">Many
people agree that Gödel’s theorem kills the reductionist conception of
man and mathematics, but it kills already the reductionist conception on
natural numbers and machines.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class="">Mechanism
leads to a sort of fictionalism for analysis, set theory and physics. A
physical universe becomes a convenient fiction invented by the numbers to
figure out what they are, somehow. <o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><br class="">
<br class="">
<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
<div class="">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#0432ff" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF" class="">It presents itself in both fluid,
intrinsic ways (subjective feelings and emotions) and crisp, well defined
inter-subjective forms (as in sciences, logics, mathematics).</span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class="">OK.
But with mechanism, the physical somehow arise from the natural or canonical
inter-subjective agreement between all universal machines/number.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class="">To
help a bit, I always fix one universal system in my head, say the programming
language LISP. Then we can enumerate all machines (Lisp program), by length
order, and by alphabetical order for those having the same length. This permits
the enumeration of all partial computable functions (which include the total
one, defined on all numbers). I identify a machine with its number in that
enumeration (like we can identify a vectors with its coordinate once we have
chosen a basis in linear algebra).<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><br class="">
<br class="">
<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
<div class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><u1:p class="">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:
11.0pt" class=""> </span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-weight:bold" class="">“We can’t have both
Mechanism in cognitive science, and materialism, or just physicalism, in the
“natural science”. That has been shown logically inconsistent.”<u1:p class=""></u1:p></span></font></b><span lang="SV" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#0432ff" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF" class="">It depends on the choice of
“mechanism”, “cognitive science”
(classical-computationalist disembodied or contemporary EEEE models of
cognition), along with the kind of “physicalism” assumed, and even
the choice of “natural sciences” to support your thesis. In the
paper below (*) I argue, for a given choice of all those terms and with heavy
reliance on the contemporary scientific knowledge, that computational mind is
not only (naturally) compatible but essentially dependent on its physical
substrate on succession of levels of organization. </span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</u1:p></div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class="">That
is true for the human mind. And it is important for the human application. But
with mechanism, eventually, we get very close to de Chardin, when he says that
we are not humans having spiritual existence, but we are spiritual beings
having a human existence. We are not human thinking about numbers, but we are
numbers thinking about humans.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><br class="">
<br class="">
<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
<div class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p>
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><font size="2" color="#0432ff" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF;font-weight:bold" class="">Q: If we
have such model </span></font></b><font color="#0432ff" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#0432FF" class="">in which “mechanisms” of information
processing (natural computation in the framework of computing nature) from the
lowest levels of exchanges between elementary particles to the highest levels
of exchanges among people of symbolic structures and artifacts, wouldn’t
that constitute a counter-example to the claim that mind and body have nothing
to do with each other ? (**)</span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class="">With
Mechanism, we have the curious, non Aristotelian, consequences that bodies are
constructs of the mind, but also a result of the fact that we don’t know
which computations, among an infinities in arithmetic, supports us. <o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class="">A
material reality, with some primitive substrate, is unable to select a
computation from the infinitely many computations going through our state in
arithmetic. That would require an added non computational ability to the brain
or to the particles, or whatever we assume to be physically primary.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class="">But
the overall picture is the same, except that the physical supervene of the
number theology which supervene on elementary arithmetic.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class="">It
is not necessarily a pleasant theory, as we can no more die in this theory,
consciousness becomes a sort of inescapable prison, and arithmetic, if it
contains some paradise, contains also some hell, etc. What is nice, is that it
is a vaccine against reductionism of both man and machine.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class="">I
hope this helps. I refer to my papers for the proof of the assertions, and the
description of why we can say that most of current physics favours mechanism on
naturalism. With the important understanding that this does not mean that
nature does not exist or is not important. It is only not primarily real.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class="">Like
I say above, we get:<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class="">NUMBERS
=> CONSCIOUSNESS => PHYSICAL-REALITY => HUMAN-CONSCIOUSNESS<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class="">Many
posts in this list plays on the <o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class="">PHYSICAL-REALITY
=> HUMAN-CONSCIOUSNESS,<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class="">part,
where I have no critics. But sometimes some people seems to conclude that
digital machine, à-la Church and Turing cannot be subject of private conscious
experience, which is a string assumption, and indeed it is needed to have a
primary reality. I prefer to remain open to Mechanism, and which case, that
part going from the physical reality to the human consciousness is itself a
consequence of us being universal number, borrowing the consciousness common to
all universal machine, which is also the consciousness we should come back in
some state of sleep, and plausibly after the death of the biological body.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class="">I
hoping this is not too much shocking. Please ask any question if something is
not clear. I do agree with many important points made in this list by diverse
people, but sometimes, some comments are presented like if it was in contradiction
with Digital Mechanism, when in fact they are confirming long term prediction I
derived from it. I hesitate to make my point, because it is of no use in
any direct applications. It concerns more the afterlife than life per se. But
as it predicts the very weird quantum computing notion,I tend to think that
nature confirms all this (which again is not an argument for saying it has to
be true, of course) and can be helpful to get rid of the reductionist 19th
century conception of numbers and machines. <o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class="">Kind
Regards,<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class="">Bruno<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><br class="">
<br class="">
<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
<u1:p class=""></u1:p>
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="SV" style="font-size:
11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#0432ff" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF" class="">Gordana<u1:p class=""></u1:p></span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#0432ff" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF" class=""><u1:p class=""> </u1:p></span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#0432ff" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF" class=""><u1:p class=""> </u1:p></span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#0432ff" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF" class="">* <a href="http://www.gordana.se/work/PUBLICATIONS-files/2019-Laws%20of%20Science%20as%20Laws%20of%20Nature.pdf" class=""><font color="#0432ff" class=""><span style="color:#0432FF" class="">http://www.gordana.se/work/PUBLICATIONS-files/2019-Laws%20of%20Science%20as%20Laws%20of%20Nature.pdf</span></font></a>
<u1:p class=""></u1:p></span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#0432ff" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF" class=""><u1:p class=""> </u1:p></span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#0432ff" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF" class="">** No model or framework can explain
everything about the world (including humans) at the same time, but
info-computational approach can be used to model some interesting aspects of
the mind emergent from, in interaction with its matter/energy substrate.<u1:p class=""></u1:p></span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:
11.0pt" class=""><u1:p class=""> </u1:p></span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm" class="">
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="SV" style="font-size:
11.0pt;font-weight:bold" class="">From: </span></font></b><span lang="SV" class="">Fis <<a href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es" class="">fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es</a>>
on behalf of Bruno Marchal <<a href="mailto:marchal@ulb.ac.be" class="">marchal@ulb.ac.be</a>><br class="">
<b class=""><span style="font-weight:bold" class="">Date: </span></b>Thursday, 13 June 2019 at
15:11<br class="">
<b class=""><span style="font-weight:bold" class="">To: </span></b>fis <<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" class="">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>><br class="">
<b class=""><span style="font-weight:bold" class="">Subject: </span></b>Re: [Fis] New
Perspectives. Reply to Stan<u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=""><u1:p class="">
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="SV" style="font-size:
11.0pt" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
</u1:p></div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="SV" style="font-size:
11.0pt" class="">Joseph, <o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
<u1:p class=""></u1:p></div>
<div class=""><u1:p class="">
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="SV" style="font-size:
11.0pt" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
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</u1:p></div>
<div class=""><u1:p class="">
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="SV" style="font-size:
11.0pt" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt" type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="SV" style="font-size:
11.0pt" class="">On 12 Jun 2019, at 16:40, <st1:personname w:st="on" class="">Joseph Brenner</st1:personname>
<<a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" class="">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>>
wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
<u1:p class=""></u1:p></div>
</div>
<div class=""><u1:p class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="SV" style="font-size:
11.0pt" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
</u1:p></div>
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" class=""><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";
color:navy" class="">Stan,</span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" class=""><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";
color:navy" class=""> </span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" class=""><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";
color:navy" class="">Thank you for your question. I reply with a modified excerpt from
an article in<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><i class=""><span style="font-style:italic" class="">Philosophies.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></i>The
full article is Open Access. I am indebted to Rafael Capurro for part of this
formulation. Comments welcome.</span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" class=""><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";
color:navy" class=""> </span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" class=""><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";
color:navy" class="">Best wishes,</span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" class=""><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";
color:navy" class=""> </span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" class=""><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";
color:navy" class="">Joseph</span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" class=""><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";
color:navy" class=""> </span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
</div><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
text-align:justify"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt" class="">Natural Philosophy: Excerpt from Brenner, J. 2018. The
Naturalization of Natural Philosophy.<span class="apple-converted-space"><i class=""><span style="font-style:italic" class=""> </span></i></span><i class=""><span style="font-style:
italic" class="">Philosophies<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b class=""><span style="font-weight:bold" class="">2018<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b></span></i>3,
41.</span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
text-align:justify;text-indent:35.4pt"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt" class="">Natural Philosophy deals with the question
of nature as a whole stated by beings (ourselves) that find themselves in
nature without having the possibility of a holistic view, being ourselves in
nature and not beyond it. The fact that we are able to ask this question means
that we have some kind of pre-knowledge about nature as a whole while at the
same time this pre-knowledge is problematic, otherwise we would not ask the
question and would not be able to become natural philosophers.</span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
text-align:justify;text-indent:35.4pt"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt" class="">The question then changes to the difference
between nature and reality as a whole, including fictions, non-verifiable
beliefs and intangible objects of thought. Since the idea that classical
Natural Philosophy evolved into science seems correct,
we are left, for the domain of
Natural Philosophy, with only a speculative interpretation of nature
viewed in its entirety. This interpretation is,<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><i class=""><span style="font-style:italic" class="">ipso
facto</span></i>, at a lower ontological level than the science which has
largely replaced it. Much of the 20th Century linguistic turn, expressed in
both analytical and phenomenological and residual transcendental traditions, is
well visible in contemporary philosophy.</span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
text-align:justify;text-indent:35.4pt"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt" class="">The reaction to this unsatisfactory state
of affairs has been the reinstatement of realisms and materialisms of various
kinds, associated today with the names of Derrida, Badiou, Zizek, and others.
The ‘ontological turn’ in philosophy is a term of art that designates
dissatisfaction with descriptions of reality based on analytical, semantic
criteria of truth. Starting with Heidegger’s critique of hermeneutics and
the basing of philosophy on human life, the ontological turn is a challenge to
neo-Kantian epistemologies, and looks to what the structure of the world might
be like to enable scientific, that is, non-absolute knowledge. Unfortunately,
ontological theories have been hobbled by the retention of static terms whose
characteristics are determined by bivalent logic. In 2002, Priest suggested
that such an ontological turn in philosophy was taking place, away from
language in the direction of an contradictorial view of reality. Priest
proposed paraconsistent logic as appropriate to this turn, but his system suffers
from the epistemological limitations of paraconsistency. Lupasco, on the other
hand, anticipated the ontological turn by some 60 years. (In the complete
article, I show that his logical system can be used to differentiate between
Natural Philosophy and Philosophy<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><i class=""><span style="font-style:italic" class="">tout court.</span></i>)</span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
text-align:justify;text-indent:35.4pt"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt" class="">The most important point for me is that
Natural Philosophy tells us something real about the world that is consistent
with our best science, physical, biological and cognitive. Speculative
philosophy can always re-illuminate ‘eternal’ questions such as
what it means to be a thinking being in a non-thinking environment. This
non-Natural Philosophy, to repeat, exists for ‘natural’ reasons: it
is a natural necessity for human beings to create it, by a natural process, but
it is not part of nature<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><i class=""><span style="font-style:italic" class="">qua</span></i><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>content.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=""><u1:p class="">
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="SV" style="font-size:
11.0pt" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
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</u1:p></div>
<div class="">
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="SV" style="font-size:
11.0pt" class="">This seems to assume some primary natural reality, isn’t it?<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
<u1:p class=""></u1:p></div>
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<div class=""><u1:p class="">
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="SV" style="font-size:
11.0pt" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
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</u1:p></div>
<div class="">
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="SV" style="font-size:
11.0pt" class="">As I have shown, this requires a non computationalist theory of mind,
which seems to me to be highly speculative.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
<u1:p class=""></u1:p></div>
</div>
<div class=""><u1:p class="">
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="SV" style="font-size:
11.0pt" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
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</u1:p></div>
<div class="">
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="SV" style="font-size:
11.0pt" class="">I am not sure we can avoid the mind-body problem in a philosophy of
information context. <o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
<u1:p class=""></u1:p></div>
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<div class=""><u1:p class="">
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="SV" style="font-size:
11.0pt" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
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</u1:p></div>
<div class="">
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="SV" style="font-size:
11.0pt" class="">There are no evidences for physicalism or for a physical primary
reality, nor are there evidences for a non computationalist theory of mind. Of
course some people confuse the evidences for physical laws with evidences that
such laws are primary, but that is just because they “believes” in
some natural world to begin with. I think it is better to be agnostic and see
where the facts (experimental) and working theories lead us.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
<u1:p class=""></u1:p></div>
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<div class=""><u1:p class="">
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="SV" style="font-size:
11.0pt" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
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</u1:p></div>
<div class="">
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="SV" style="font-size:
11.0pt" class="">We can’t have both Mechanism in cognitive science, and
materialism, or just physicalism, in the “natural science”. That
has been shown logically inconsistent (ask for reference if interested).<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
<u1:p class=""></u1:p></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="SV" style="font-size:
11.0pt" class="">Bruno<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
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11.0pt" class=""><br class="">
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<o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
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<u1:p class=""></u1:p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt" type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" class=""><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";
color:navy" class=""> </span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial" class=""><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy" class=""> </span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<div class="">
<div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt" class="">
<hr size="1" width="100%" align="center" class="">
</span></font></div>
<div class="">
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><font size="2" face="Tahoma" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold" class="">From:</span></font></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><font size="2" face="Tahoma" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma" class=""> </span></font></span><font size="2" face="Tahoma" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma" class="">Fis
[<a href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es" class="">mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es</a>]<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b class=""><span style="font-weight:bold" class="">On
Behalf Of<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b>Stanley N
Salthe<br class="">
<b class=""><span style="font-weight:bold" class="">Sent:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>mardi, 11 juin 2019 21:09<br class="">
<b class=""><span style="font-weight:bold" class="">To:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>fis<br class="">
<b class=""><span style="font-weight:bold" class="">Subject:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Fis] New Perspectives</span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="SV" style="font-size:
11.0pt" class=""> <u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="SV" style="font-size:
11.0pt" class="">Joseph -- Would you like to write how you define Natural Philosophy?<u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="SV" style="font-size:
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<div class="">
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="SV" style="font-size:
11.0pt" class="">STAN<u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="SV" style="font-size:
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="SV" style="font-size:
11.0pt" class="">On Tue, Jun 11, 2019 at 12:03 PM<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><st1:personname w:st="on" class="">Joseph Brenner</st1:personname><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><<a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" class="">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>> wrote:<u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode"" class="">Dear Pedro and All,</span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode"" class=""> </span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode"" class="">Many thanks are due
to you, Pedro, for this new and valuable formulation of the – daunting -
task at hand. The task is logical and philosophical, as well as scientific.
Philosophy here, exemplified by the Philosophy of Information, does not mean standard
discussions of ‘where did we come from’ and ‘does a
transcendent deity exist’, which are as sterile in their way as the
excesses of the IT and AI ideologists. Natural Philosophy can be a
‘vehicle’ for interaction between people of good will, the
collaboration that you point to that may help to advance IS4SI. Some of you who
may not have been at the Conference in San Francisco (Berkeley) may wish to
look at abstracts of papers from the Philosophy of Information sub-conferences
at the 2015, 2017 and 2019 Summit conferences on Information.</span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode"" class=""> </span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode"" class="">To revitalize the
list is indeed a key first step. But it starts, in my opinion, with some
self-examination, examination of whether one’s own theories are just
‘pet’ theories. Applying this criterion to my own Logic in Reality,
about which I have written on several occasions, I claim that it is not just a
pet theory. It is a new perspective on how information, logic and thought
operate as real processes, following laws within the laws of physics, without
loss of a human, ethical dimension. However, LIR makes many demands on one. It
requires an understanding and acceptance of what is /<i class=""><span style="font-style:
italic" class="">not</span></i>/ Natural Philosophy, which may include some of the ideas
that have appeared in this list. </span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode"" class=""> </span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode"" class="">Again, accepting my
own criterion of interactive non-separability, I do not call for any exclusions
or limitations on the list. I only wish that everyone makes the necessary
effort to position his or her own views in relation to the overriding need for
furthering the Common Good. The sum of all such honest self-referential (or
second-order recursive) opinions of people about their own work would itself be
a useful creative effort, I think.</span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode"" class=""> </span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode"" class="">Thank you and best
wishes,</span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode"" class=""> </span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Lucida Sans Unicode" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode"" class="">Joseph<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Courier New" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"" class=""> </span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Courier New" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"" class="">-----Original Message-----<br class="">
From: Fis [mailto:<a href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" class="">fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es</a>]
On Behalf Of Pedro C. Marijuan<br class="">
Sent: mardi, 11 juin 2019 13:05<br class="">
To: 'fis'<br class="">
Subject: [Fis] New Perspectives</span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Courier New" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"" class=""> </span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Courier New" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"" class="">Dear FIS Colleagues,</span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Courier New" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"" class=""> </span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Courier New" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"" class="">A few days ago took place
the IS4SI Meeting, in SFco, with one of the<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Courier New" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"" class="">parallel sessions devoted to
FIS and other sessions also with presence<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Courier New" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"" class="">of veteran parties of this
list. Relevant speakers in the plenary<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Courier New" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"" class="">sessions covered the main
topic of the conference, expressed as: Where<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Courier New" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"" class="">is the I in Artificial
Intelligence and the Meaning in Information? From<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Courier New" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"" class="">Tristan Harris to Melanie
Mitchell, to Paul Verschure, etc.</span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Courier New" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"" class=""> </span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Courier New" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"" class="">In my view the perspectives
in these IT fields are changing<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Courier New" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"" class="">significantly. The
tremendous hype in AI, Deep Learning, IOT, etc. keeps<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Courier New" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"" class="">unabated, but critical
voices are being heard, not just from a few<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Courier New" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"" class="">Academia corners as usual,
but now by leading technologists and<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Courier New" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"" class="">researchers of big companies
in these very fields. "Dissent" on the<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Courier New" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"" class="">contents, methodologies, and
consequences of social applications is growing.</span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Courier New" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"" class=""> </span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Courier New" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"" class="">The industrial development
of this IT sector --notwithstanding the<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Courier New" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"" class="">inflated proclamations and
all the hype of the gurus-- does not mean the<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Courier New" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"" class="">arrival of some great
singularity, or the symbiosis with machines, or<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Courier New" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"" class="">widespread menace of robots
& cyborgs... these are slogans coming from<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Courier New" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"" class="">the industrialists to
maintain social/ideological preeminence for their<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Courier New" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"" class="">whole sector. Rather I think
they are starting to feel the consequences<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Courier New" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"" class="">of their social
overstretching in different ways.</span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Courier New" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"" class=""> </span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Courier New" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"" class="">The fundamental point, in my
opinion, is that our solitary, isolated<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Courier New" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"" class="">efforts from a few Academia
places (Sciences & Humanities) in the quest<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Courier New" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"" class="">for new perspectives in
Information Science, and not just AI<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Courier New" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"" class="">development, should not
isolated any more. We can now establish an<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Courier New" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"" class="">interesting dialog and
partnership with those new "dissenters" of the<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Courier New" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"" class="">technology in its concepts,
methods, and social applications. It is upon<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Courier New" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"" class="">us to improve the discussion
procedures, the collaborations, the<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Courier New" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"" class="">organization, etc. so that
this opportunity might materialize<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Courier New" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"" class="">progressively. Do not ask me
how... In any case I pointed out three<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Courier New" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"" class="">future directions for IS4SI
advancement: community building, attracting<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Courier New" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"" class="">scientific/technological avantgarde,
and organizational improvement.</span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Courier New" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"" class=""> </span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Courier New" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"" class="">Revitalizing this discussion
list--shouldn't it be one of the first steps?</span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Courier New" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"" class=""> </span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Courier New" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"" class="">Best greetings to all,</span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Courier New" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"" class=""> </span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Courier New" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"" class="">--Pedro</span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Courier New" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"" class=""> </span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Courier New" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"" class="">-------------------------------------------------</span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Courier New" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"" class="">Pedro C. Marijuán</span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Courier New" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"" class="">Grupo de Bioinformación /
Bioinformation Group</span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Courier New" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"" class=""> </span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Courier New" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"" class=""><a href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" target="_blank" class="">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a></span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Courier New" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"" class=""><a href="https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fsites.google.com%2Fsite%2Fpedrocmarijuan%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cgordana.dodig-crnkovic%40mdh.se%7Ce3cf40966de148aaf4b108d6f0009e4b%7Ca1795b64dabd4758b988b309292316cf%7C0%7C0%7C636960282786234083&sdata=rRk9RxUKvWoq1nnH7eSkg5gRTil1tVUTgTK0pDa5Ihg%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank" class="">http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/</a></span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Courier New" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"" class="">-------------------------------------------------</span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Courier New" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"" class=""> </span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Courier New" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"" class=""> </span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Courier New" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"" class="">---</span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Courier New" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"" class="">El software de antivirus
Avast ha analizado este correo electrónico en busca de virus.</span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Courier New" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"" class=""><a href="https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.avast.com%2Fantivirus&data=02%7C01%7Cgordana.dodig-crnkovic%40mdh.se%7Ce3cf40966de148aaf4b108d6f0009e4b%7Ca1795b64dabd4758b988b309292316cf%7C0%7C0%7C636960282786234083&sdata=Wbrn7sp1W%2Fg4GOIdAmb0U1geydhcdm%2FOX6Hu5N7Lc3k%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank" class="">https://www.avast.com/antivirus</a></span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Courier New" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"" class=""> </span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Courier New" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"" class="">_______________________________________________</span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Courier New" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"" class="">Fis mailing list</span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Courier New" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"" class=""><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" class="">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a></span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Courier New" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"" class=""><a href="https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flistas.unizar.es%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ffis&data=02%7C01%7Cgordana.dodig-crnkovic%40mdh.se%7Ce3cf40966de148aaf4b108d6f0009e4b%7Ca1795b64dabd4758b988b309292316cf%7C0%7C0%7C636960282786244082&sdata=%2BSp0SCZdqFLqq%2FPes13pr84YSlKm03qEikuJ5vzJ2CQ%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank" class="">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a></span></font><span lang="SV" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div id="gmail-m_8386423096837602299DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2" class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="SV" style="font-size:
11.0pt" class=""> <u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
</div>
<table class="MsoNormalTable" border="1" cellspacing="3" cellpadding="0" style="border:none;border-top:solid #D3D4DE 1.0pt">
<tbody class=""><tr class="">
<td width="46" style="width:27.5pt;border:none;padding:9.0pt .75pt .75pt .75pt" class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><a href="https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.avast.com%2Fsig-email%3Futm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dlink%26utm_campaign%3Dsig-email%26utm_content%3Demailclient&data=02%7C01%7Cgordana.dodig-crnkovic%40mdh.se%7Ce3cf40966de148aaf4b108d6f0009e4b%7Ca1795b64dabd4758b988b309292316cf%7C0%7C0%7C636960282786244082&sdata=E3huy%2FK%2BF2q8BQYe%2FpMNb5mXlwom5sE3WuctW2DVN2M%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank" class=""><font class=""><span style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:
none" class=""><object border="0" width="46" height="29" style="width:.4791in;height:.302in" id="_x0000_i1025" alt="Image removed by sender." class="" data="cid:~WRD000.jpg" type="application/x-apple-msg-attachment"></object></span></font></a></span></font><font size="3" class=""><span style="font-size:12.0pt" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
</div>
</td>
<td width="392" style="width:235.0pt;border:none;padding:8.5pt .75pt .75pt .75pt" class="">
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
line-height:9.0pt"><font size="1" color="#41424e" face="Arial" class=""><span style="font-size:6.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#41424E" class="">Garanti sans virus.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.avast.com%2Fsig-email%3Futm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dlink%26utm_campaign%3Dsig-email%26utm_content%3Demailclient&data=02%7C01%7Cgordana.dodig-crnkovic%40mdh.se%7Ce3cf40966de148aaf4b108d6f0009e4b%7Ca1795b64dabd4758b988b309292316cf%7C0%7C0%7C636960282786254081&sdata=TeOIk53ReL3Aw0mMz3wLptFb2cmnkwV7enRUKCWARyo%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank" class=""><font color="#4453ea" class=""><span style="color:#4453EA" class="">www.avast.com</span></font></a></span></font><font size="3" class=""><span style="font-size:12.0pt" class=""><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody></table>
</div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="SV" style="font-size:
11.0pt" class="">_______________________________________________<br class="">
Fis mailing list<br class="">
<a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" class="">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br class="">
<a href="https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flistas.unizar.es%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ffis&data=02%7C01%7Cgordana.dodig-crnkovic%40mdh.se%7Ce3cf40966de148aaf4b108d6f0009e4b%7Ca1795b64dabd4758b988b309292316cf%7C0%7C0%7C636960282786254081&sdata=NgDErO3w5%2B7%2FDm3G3dobqSaXFjrR6EAlvN32HliQgpM%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank" class="">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="SV" style="font-size:
11.0pt" class="">_______________________________________________<br class="">
Fis mailing list<br class="">
<a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" class="">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br class="">
<a href="https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flistas.unizar.es%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ffis&data=02%7C01%7Cgordana.dodig-crnkovic%40mdh.se%7Ce3cf40966de148aaf4b108d6f0009e4b%7Ca1795b64dabd4758b988b309292316cf%7C0%7C0%7C636960282786264068&sdata=%2F3c%2BLJrQ9VLXSWXyuWjGNwdxCc2QSslqv%2BIyz%2F1ooX8%3D&reserved=0" class="">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
<u1:p class=""></u1:p></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div class=""><u1:p class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span lang="SV" style="font-size:
11.0pt" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></span></font></div>
</u1:p></div>
</u1:p></div>
</div>
</div>
</div><div class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></font></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</o:smarttagtype></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></div></body></html>