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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Dear All,</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Thanks to Joseph for his useful
interpretation on Bruno's points. In my impression, theoretical
physics (mostly people working on string and superstring theory)
are doing exactly that: committing themselves to a mathematical
formulation, rather esoteric, and looking whether some physical
phenomena may be obtained. Changing the topic, I was also
intrigued by Joseph's comment in a previous posting "...<font
size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"
lang="EN-GB">Starting with
Heidegger’s critique of hermeneutics and the basing of
philosophy on
human life..."</span></font> My thin philosophical basis,
mostly due to the works of Jose Ortega y Gaset (well known
internationally in the 40s and 50s by his "Rebellion of the
Masses", particularly the essay "The barbarianism of [scientific]
specialization", curiously the essay was cited by Paul Verschure
in the recent San Francisco Conference) inclines me precisely in
that direction. My question, that I developed in a paper a couple
of years ago, is whether the new biomolecular knowledge on how the
life cycle is organized in unicellulars and in multicellulars (we
included), coupled with some new neuroscience, may provide an
original response --or a new way of advancement-- to that secular
problem that also touches on the conceptions of information. In
any case, I was also surprised reading Steve Pinker (I cannot
locate the specific book right now) that he was carefully
dismantling Ortega's anchoring of philosophy on human life, both
biographically and historically. He was contra-posing (if I
remember well) both cognitive science and evolutionary psychology.
<br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Well, I will try to prepare better my
arguments in a next occasion, as I also want to discuss Pinker's
mythology of the Enlightenment, "enchantment" it seems... and the
role of technologies versus the role of ideas and discoveries in
social advancement, historically and at a global scale.</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Best --Pedro<br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">El 18/06/2019 a las 10:06, Joseph
Brenner escribió:<br>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Lucida Sans Unicode"
color="navy"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans
Unicode";color:navy">Dear
Bruno and All,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Lucida Sans Unicode"
color="navy"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans
Unicode";color:navy"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Lucida Sans Unicode"
color="navy"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans
Unicode";
color:navy" lang="EN-GB">As a way of positioning Bruno’s
theory, I suggest that it is
a kind of inverse phenomenology. In standard
phenomenology, one starts with phenomena
and places them in a framework of interpretation. In his
Digital Mechanism, Bruno
starts with a mathematical framework, (to which he
ascribes ontological
properties), and comes out with the phenomena, or some
of them.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Lucida Sans Unicode"
color="navy"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans
Unicode";
color:navy" lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Lucida Sans Unicode"
color="navy"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans
Unicode";
color:navy" lang="EN-GB">If there is – also – some
dynamic, material principle underlying
what we perceive and what we are, Digital Mechanism
should also generate <i><span style="font-style:italic">it</span></i>.
If it does not, then DM may not be
wrong, but it is incomplete, and a careful reading of
Bruno would appear (<i><span style="font-style:italic">sic</span></i>)
to permit this.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Lucida Sans Unicode"
color="navy"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans
Unicode";
color:navy" lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Lucida Sans Unicode"
color="navy"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans
Unicode";
color:navy" lang="EN-GB">We all look for theories, at
some time in our lives or another,
that will ‘carry us’ from one side of existence to the
other. Bruno
– your best statements come at the send of your note. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:
11.0pt" lang="EN-GB">“I hesitate to make my point,
because it is of no use in any
direct applications. It concerns more the afterlife than
life per se.” </span></font><font size="2" face="Lucida
Sans Unicode" color="navy"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans
Unicode";color:navy" lang="EN-GB">I then would be
very glad
if, as a candidate for the ‘other part of the story’,
you would
look at my logical phenomenology. Logic in Reality
addresses life <i><span style="font-style:italic">per
se</span></i>, and I claim it is of substantial
use in direct applications, last but not least
informational processes<i><span
style="font-style:italic">. </span></i>You say
further:</span></font><span lang="EN-GB"> “nature
confirms all this (which again is not an argument for
saying it has to be true, of course) and can be helpful to
get rid of the
reductionist 19th century conception of numbers and
machines”.</span><font size="2" face="Lucida Sans Unicode"
color="navy"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans
Unicode";color:navy" lang="EN-GB"> It thus would be
ridiculous to say that <b><span
style="font-weight:bold">nature </span></b>is <i><span
style="font-style:italic">limited </span></i>by the
one function you attribute
to her here. As long as you are not saying that man _<b><i><span
style="font-weight:bold;font-style:italic">is</span></i><i><span
style="font-style:italic">_</span></i></b>, or is
only, a machine, there is
room for discussion.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Lucida Sans Unicode"
color="navy"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans
Unicode";
color:navy" lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Lucida Sans Unicode"
color="navy"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans
Unicode";
color:navy" lang="EN-GB">Best,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Lucida Sans Unicode"
color="navy"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans
Unicode";
color:navy" lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Lucida Sans Unicode"
color="navy"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans
Unicode";
color:navy" lang="EN-GB">Joseph<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:center"
align="center"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
"Times New Roman"" lang="EN-US">
<hr tabindex="-1" width="100%" size="3" align="center">
</span></font></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold"
lang="EN-US">From:</span></font></b><font size="2"
face="Tahoma"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma"
lang="EN-US">
Fis [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es">mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es</a>] <b><span
style="font-weight:bold">On
Behalf Of </span></b>Bruno Marchal<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b>
lundi, 17 juin 2019 13:12<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> fis<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b>
Re: [Fis] New
Perspectives. Reply to Bruno's Reply to Stan</span></font><font
size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
"Times New Roman"" lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">Dear
Gordana,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">I
will try to answer your questions. It is not easy,
because this belongs to a
very hot subject, and what I say is based on
counter-intuitive, and not very
well known, results in mathematical logic, which is
not very well taught, if
taught at all.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">Note
also that I am using the Digital Mechanist hypothesis
as a working hypothesis.
I never claim that it is true, and my work has only
shown that it is testable,
but eventually I can conclude that the experimental
evidences favours this
hypothesis.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"
type="cite">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">On
14 Jun 2019, at 06:45, Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic
<<a
href="mailto:gordana.dodig-crnkovic@mdh.se"
moz-do-not-send="true">gordana.dodig-crnkovic@mdh.se</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div link="blue" vlink="purple">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"
face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:
11.0pt" lang="SV"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"
face="Calibri" color="#0432ff"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF"
lang="EN-US">I have a few questions to
your answers
and would be happy if you can help me to
understand.<u1:p class=""></u1:p></span></font><span
lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"
face="Calibri" color="#0432ff"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF"
lang="EN-US">Here they come, following
formulations
from your mail.<u1:p class=""></u1:p></span></font><span
lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"
face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:
11.0pt" lang="EN-US"><u1:p class=""> </u1:p></span></font><span
lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font size="2"
face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-weight:bold"
lang="EN-US">“This seems to assume some
primary natural reality, isn’t it?”<u1:p
class=""></u1:p></span></font></b><span
lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font size="2"
face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-weight:bold"
lang="EN-US"><u1:p class=""> </u1:p></span></font></b><span
lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font size="2"
face="Calibri" color="#0432ff"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF;font-weight:bold"
lang="EN-US">Q: What is
meant by “primary natural reality”? <u1:p
class=""></u1:p></span></font></b><span
lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"
face="Calibri" color="#0432ff"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF"
lang="EN-US"><u1:p class=""> </u1:p></span></font><span
lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"
face="Calibri" color="#0432ff"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF"
lang="EN-US">1. If it refers to the <b><span
style="font-weight:bold">EXISTENCE</span></b>
OF THE EXTERNAL/INTERNAL NATURAL
WORLD, I think this is the most reasonable
hypothesis to start with:<u1:p class=""></u1:p></span></font><span
lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font size="2"
face="Calibri" color="#0432ff"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF;font-weight:bold"
lang="EN-US">The
world/nature EXISTS. </span></font></b><font
color="#0432ff"><span style="color:#0432FF"
lang="EN-US">It is the fundamental
assumption of all sciences which
are our best present knowledge about the
world.</span></font><span lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<u1:p class=""></u1:p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"
face="Calibri" color="#0432ff"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF"
lang="EN-US">Otherwise, if the world does
not EXIST,
we can conclude any discussion about it.</span></font><span
lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">So,
this might already be in conflict with the Digital
Mechanist hypothesis (simply
called Mechanism hereafter). I will come to that
hypothesis later. What I will
say is derived in that theory.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">We
do agree that the physical-world/nature EXISTS.
But with Mechanism, this is no
more something that we have to assume, its
existence has to become a theorem in
the Mechanist theory. The physical reality does
not disappear, but its
existence becomes phenomenological, and physics
get reduced to arithmetic, a
bit like today most scientists would agree that
chemistry is in principle
reducible to quantum physics, if we abstract from
the level of
organisation. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">By
Mechanism (Digital Mechanism) I mean the
assumption that there is a level of
description of my brain, or body, possibly
including a finite part of the
environment, such that a digital emulation of my
body made at that description
level would not change my first person conscious
experience. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">Mechanism
is the belief that no organ in my body can’t be
replaced by an artificial
prosthesis, and in particular, that we would
survive, in the clinical usual
sense, with an artificial brain. Now, the level
can be as much low as we want,
like copying the brain at the level of the quantum
field description, using the
standard model of the particles, and using as many
decimals as needed as long
as it is a finite number.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">Mechanism
implies that physics has to be recovered from a
statistics on (pure) partially
computable number relations, and this will lead to
the fact that neither matter
nor consciousness are Turing emulable, contrary to
a widespread confusion.
Somehow, if “I” am a machine, everything else
cannot be a machine.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">Eventually,
mechanism makes very elementary arithmetic into
the theory of everything, but
any Turing-complete (rich enough to define the
notion of computation) theory
can be used. Indeed, physics becomes independent
of the ontological theory:
they all lead to the same physics.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">So,
to answer your question: YES, the physical reality
exists. But NO, it is not
primary, which means that we don’t have to assume
a natural world, we
have to explain its appearance from a theory of
consciousness or from some
“theology”, in the pre-christian sense of the
word. Today’s
theology is still in the hands of institutions
which practice the argument of
authority, which is invalid with the scientific
method.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">What
many people ignore is that the discovery of
computation and computability has
been done by mathematician, and those notion have
been shown to be even
*arithmetical*. A computer is an implementation in
the physical reality of a
universal machine, which is an object already
implemented in all universal
environment just through natural number
relations. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">A
universal machine cannot distinguish a physical
computations from an
arithmetical one, by introspection, and that
enforce us to explain why the
physical laws must be reduced to a statistics on
"number's dreams”
in arithmetic. This leads quickly to some
“many-world”
interpretation of elementary arithmetic, and it is
testable by comparing the
mathematics of that many-worlds, or better
“many-histories”
interpretation of arithmetic (or Turing
equivalent) with the observations.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div><u1:p class=""></u1:p><u1:p class="">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"
face="Calibri" color="#0432ff"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF"
lang="EN-US"> </span></font><span
lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"
face="Calibri" color="#0432ff"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF"
lang="EN-US">2. The other question is <b><span
style="font-weight:bold">HOW</span></b>
that EXISTENCE of the world
outside/inside cognitive agents presents
itself or unfolds in an agent in the
interaction with the world.<u1:p class=""></u1:p></span></font><span
lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"
face="Calibri" color="#0432ff"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF"
lang="EN-US">That is the question of
UMWELT, and the
construction of knowledge through
information processing. (Natural
information
processing = natural computation.)</span></font><span
lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</u1:p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">As
a consequence of above, the natural computation
emerges from the arithmetical
computations. (I assume Mechanism all along).<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div><u1:p class=""></u1:p>
<div link="blue" vlink="purple">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"
color="#0432ff"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF"
lang="EN-US">The “primary natural
reality” reflects itself in a myriad of
local “realities” in
cognizing agents. As we know from empirical
observations, even though existence
of the world induces various information
processes in various agents,
communities of agents are typically sharing
common “languages”
about that “primary natural reality”.</span></font><span
lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">Yes.
If Mechanism would lead to solipsism, that would
be enough for me to abandon
it. Fortunately, the universal machine discourse
explains already why some
dreams get very long and sharable among population
of universal
machine/numbers.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div><u1:p class=""></u1:p>
<div link="blue" vlink="purple">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"
color="#0432ff"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF"
lang="EN-US">That is true for bacterial as
well as
for human communities. </span></font><span
lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">Note
that I discovered computer science in molecular
biology books. I would have become
a biologist if I did not discover that the
conceptual explanation of
reproduction (which fascinated me in biology) was
already implemented in the
arithmetical reality. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">After
Gödel, we know that this is not a reductionist
view, as such a reality is beyond
all possible effective theories. Here, sometimes
people confuse the
arithmetical reality and the theories we built to
put some light on that
reality. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div link="blue" vlink="purple">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"
color="#0432ff"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF"
lang="EN-US">Languages reflect our ability
to
collectively navigate “primary natural
reality” and share common
references. So much so that we are able to
commonly build a new semantic layer,
that is human culture, upon that “primary
natural reality”.</span></font><span
lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">Why
primary? I am OK with what you say here, except
that what you call
“primary natural reality” is no more primary. It
is already a sort
of unavoidable social cultural building by the
universal numbers in arithmetic.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">The
logical dependency is like this:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">NUMBERS
=> CONSCIOUSNESS => PHYSICAL-REALITY =>
HUMAN-CONSCIOUSNESS<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">The
arithmetical structure, which follows from the
definition of addition and
multiplication, determine a consciousness flux
which differentiate itself in
arithmetic, and the natural world appearance
emerges from the first person
(singular and plural) view of the universal
numbers.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">Consciousness
can be quasi-axiomatically defined by<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">True,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">Indubitable,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">Immediate,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">Non
provable,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">Non
definable<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">+
(with Mechanism) invariant for some digital
functional substitution made at
some description level.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div><u1:p class=""></u1:p><u1:p class="">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"
face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:
11.0pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></font><span
lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font size="2"
face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-weight:bold"
lang="EN-US">“As I have shown, this
requires
a non computationalist theory of mind,
which seems to me to be highly
speculative.”<u1:p class=""></u1:p></span></font></b><span
lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font size="2"
face="Calibri" color="#0432ff"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF;font-weight:bold"
lang="EN-US">Q:</span></font></b><font
color="#0432ff"><span style="color:#0432FF"
lang="EN-US"> <b><span
style="font-weight:bold">Why would
that follow from the EXISTENCE of the
world?</span></b>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">What
kind of phenomenon is that
“computation” which minds perform? </span></b>Is
it the Turing
model of discrete sequential symbol
manipulation – calculation of
mathematical function? </span></font><span
lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</u1:p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">Yes.
I sum up often Mechanism by “Yes Doctor + Church’s
thesis”.
The notion of computations is the one discovered
by many people like Emil Post,
Alan Turing, Alonzo Church. Gödel discovered it
implicitly, and already show it
to be an arithmetical notion. He missed the
Church-Turing thesis though, and
the consequence of mechanism.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">Computations
exists like prime number exists. The physical
reality is secondary, and physics
is in principle reduced to very elementary
arithmetic. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div link="blue" vlink="purple">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"
color="#0432ff"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF"
lang="EN-US">It may at best describe
linguistic part
of the mind.</span></font><span lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">This
is described in the mind of the universal
machine/number. Interestingly, they
can only describe a part of this. Many
arithmetical truth concerning those
machine are extra-linguistic, and does not admit
any third person description.
They are not definable.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">The
universal numbers/machine can be shown to have a
soul (in Plato’s sense,
not Aristotle’s sense), and the universal numbers,
in particular also
those implemented in the physical reality, already
knows that they have a soul,
and that their soul are NOT a machine, nor
anything describable in third person
term. It is more like the meaning, and like the
syntax.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">In
fact, a universal machine can refute all complete
effective theories that we
may use to study them. The universal machine is
born universal dissident. They
break down all reductionist conception of
themselves.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">After
Gödel and Tarski, we know that most of the
arithmetical reality will be
unprovable by any machine, but a part of that non
provable reality is still
experienceable and knowable by other (tag
provability) diverse means. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div link="blue" vlink="purple">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"
color="#0432ff"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF"
lang="EN-US">But mind as a natural process
is both
data-based (even continuous data) </span></font><span
lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">OK.
Mechanism proves the necessary existence of at
least one continuous observable,
even of a non computable one.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div link="blue" vlink="purple">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"
color="#0432ff"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF"
lang="EN-US">and symbol based. Not Turing
computable
in it entirety, </span></font><span
lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">OK.
Mechanism makes both consciousness and matter NON
computable. That is why your
approach is interesting in practice, probably even
necessary. With Mechanism,
only the assumption of primaries would be wrong.
In arithmetic, The
machines are confronted all the time to a non
entirely computable reality. The
machines are themselves only partial computable,
and most of the arithmetical
reality is highly not computable, and plays a role
in the development of mind.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div link="blue" vlink="purple">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"
color="#0432ff"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF"
lang="EN-US">but “naturally computable”
i.e. the result of natural information
processing performed by living embodied
minds.</span></font><span lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">I
use computable in the mathematical sense of Church
and Turing. I would use here
“naturally experienceable”, or “naturally
manageable” or
something. I am aware of many attempt to define
different sort of computations,
but they have no corresponding “Church’s thesis”,
and
usually, they are Turing emulable, or they use non
computable elements that it
is simpler to recover from the first person
indeterminacy imposed by
incompleteness to all machines. If not, it looks
like assuming something just
to add complications, when the complications is
already there.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div><u1:p class=""></u1:p><u1:p class="">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"
face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:
11.0pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></font><span
lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font size="2"
face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-weight:bold"
lang="EN-US">“I am not sure we can avoid
the
mind-body problem in a philosophy of
information context</span></font></b><span
lang="EN-US">.”<u1:p class=""></u1:p></span><span
lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font size="2"
face="Calibri" color="#0432ff"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF;font-weight:bold"
lang="EN-US">Q: Why?
Natural information processes in living
organisms seem to me as the best way to
bridge the mind-body chasm</span></font></b><font
color="#0432ff"><span style="color:#0432FF"
lang="EN-US">. Mind is a result of a
complex network of
networks of information processes going on
in a cognizing agent. That process
is implemented in their bodies as a
material substrate that is self-organized
structure growth from that <b><span
style="font-weight:bold">“primary
natural reality”</span></b>. There is
no contradiction between the
morphology (shape, structure, material) of
an organism and its functions
(processes performed by that morphology.
At least those organisms who have
nervous systems capable of representing
their bodies and their relationships to
their environments can be seen as
possessing intrinsic
“self-models” or simply having “self” or
“mind”. That “mind” is the result of the
relationships
of its subsystems that constitute that
“self”, that process which
for an organism makes a distinction
between the “self” vs. the
world and the relationships between the
two.<u1:p class=""></u1:p></span></font><span
lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"
face="Calibri" color="#0432ff"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF"
lang="EN-US">Mind is a process, matter is
its
substrate on which the process is going
on. Those are inseparable in a living
organism. In-formation has it roots in the
concept of formation (of a material
substrate). Matter and form are two
aspects of the same reality. It is not a
problem, it is a way how we conceptualize
the world, in order to manage its
complexity.</span></font><span lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</u1:p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">With
mechanism, mind is a process. OK. But there is no
substrate. That is a
necessary collective hallucination coming from the
differentiation of
consciousness in arithmetic. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">This
is admittedly counter-intuitive/ There is no
ontological/primary space, nor
time, nor particles, nor energy, nor waves, etc.
But the conscious appearance
of this can be explained, in a precise way enough
to be tested (and thanks to
quantum mechanics, which I predicted before
realising that the physicists were
already there, we get confirmations of this).<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">With
Mechanism we are back at Pythagorus. There is only
numbers and the only laws
are addition and multiplication. With this we can
define computations, and the
appearance of ontological/primary space, time,
particles, energy, waves,
… is explained by the theory of machine’s
consciousness.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div><u1:p class=""></u1:p><u1:p class="">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"
face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:
11.0pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></font><span
lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font size="2"
face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-weight:bold"
lang="EN-US">“There are no evidences for
physicalism or for a physical primary
reality, nor are there evidences for a
non computationalist theory of mind.”<u1:p
class=""></u1:p></span></font></b><span
lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font size="2"
face="Calibri" color="#0432ff"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF;font-weight:bold"
lang="EN-US"><u1:p class=""> </u1:p></span></font></b><span
lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font size="2"
face="Calibri" color="#0432ff"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF;font-weight:bold"
lang="EN-US">Q: What is
meant with “physicalism” here?<u1:p
class=""></u1:p></span></font></b><span
lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"
face="Calibri" color="#0432ff"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF"
lang="EN-US">Wikipedia offers two
different
definitions, <a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physicalism"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physicalism</a>
according to which<u1:p class=""></u1:p></span></font><span
lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font size="2"
face="Calibri" color="#0432ff"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF;font-weight:bold"
lang="EN-US">Physicalism</span></font></b><font
color="#0432ff"><span style="color:#0432FF"
lang="EN-US"> is the </span></font><font
color="#0432ff"><span style="color:#0432FF"
lang="SV"><a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphysical"
title="Metaphysical"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
lang="EN-US">metaphysical</span></a></span></font><font
color="#0432ff"><span style="color:#0432FF"
lang="EN-US"> thesis assuming that<u1:p
class=""></u1:p></span></font><span
lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"
face="Calibri" color="#0432ff"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF"
lang="EN-US">a) <b><span
style="font-weight:bold">"everything
is physical"</span></b>, that there is
"nothing over and above"
the physical,</span></font><sup><font
color="#0432ff"><span
style="color:#0432FF" lang="SV"><a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physicalism#cite_note-1"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
lang="EN-US">[1]</span></a></span></font></sup><font
color="#0432ff"><span style="color:#0432FF"
lang="EN-US"> or <u1:p class=""></u1:p></span></font><span
lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"
face="Calibri" color="#0432ff"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF"
lang="EN-US">b) that <b><span
style="font-weight:
bold">everything </span></b></span></font><b><font
color="#0432ff"><span
style="color:#0432FF;font-weight:bold"
lang="SV"><a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supervenience"
title="Supervenience"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
lang="EN-US">supervenes</span></a></span></font></b><b><font
color="#0432ff"><span
style="color:#0432FF;font-weight:bold"
lang="EN-US"> on the physical</span></font></b><font
color="#0432ff"><span style="color:#0432FF"
lang="EN-US">.</span></font><sup><font
color="#0432ff"><span
style="color:#0432FF" lang="SV"><a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physicalism#cite_note-DStoljar-2"
moz-do-not-send="true">[2]</a></span></font></sup><font
color="#0432ff"><span style="color:#0432FF"
lang="SV"> <u1:p class=""></u1:p></span></font><span
lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"
face="Calibri" color="#0432ff"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF"
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""> </u1:p></span></font><span
lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"
face="Calibri" color="#0432ff"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF"
lang="EN-US">Those are two very different
proposals.
The first one is obviously false, as it
negates all the emergent levels of
organization of the world above physics.</span></font><span
lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</u1:p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">I
agree.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">With
mechanism, the physical level is itself an
emergent level of organisation above
arithmetic. Nature is no more primary in the sense
that we can explain it
without an ontological commitment in some physical
universe. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">It
is not exactly like a dream, but like infinitely
many dreams statistically
interfering.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div><u1:p class=""></u1:p>
<div link="blue" vlink="purple">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"
color="#0432ff"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF"
lang="EN-US">The second one depends on what
is meant
by “<b><span style="font-weight:bold">supervenience”</span></b>.
If
it means that<b><span
style="font-weight:bold"> </span></b>higher
levels of
organization of matter-energy emerge from
the lower ones bringing completely
new properties, it is in perfect agreement
with what sciences today say about
the world and how they model the world.*<u1:p
class=""></u1:p></span></font><span
lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"
color="#0432ff"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF"
lang="EN-US">Molecules are made of atoms but
bring
completely new possibilities of structures,
processes and interactions. Biology
is more than chemistry for the same reason.
</span></font><span lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">Yes,
but with mechanism, physicalism is false in the
sense that the physical reality
is due to a psychological phenomenon. A very
precise one, which should give the
laws of physics, so we can test empirically
Mechanism, and the test made until
today confirms mechanism. That does not prove it
to be true, of course.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div><u1:p class=""></u1:p><u1:p class="">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"
face="Calibri" color="#0432ff"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF"
lang="EN-US"> </span></font><span
lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font size="2"
face="Calibri" color="#0432ff"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF;font-weight:bold"
lang="EN-US">Q: What
would be “a physical primary reality”?<u1:p
class=""></u1:p></span></font></b><span
lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"
face="Calibri" color="#0432ff"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF"
lang="EN-US">Am I wrong if I imagine that
I cannot go
out of this room through its walls? Does
not that mean that there is “a
physical primary reality” that stops me
from doing so, no matter how much
I wish and try?</span></font><span
lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</u1:p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">Not
really. In most of my dreams, I cannot go through
wall too. It just means that
there is wall, and that we cannot go through. It
does not mean that a wall
really exist, just that some dreams are lawful,
and this is what mechanism show
to exist statistically.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">Note
that with both Digital Mechanism, and quantum
physics, we can go through wall
(!), but the probability of that event is shown,
in quantum physics, to be very
rare for massive object, and yet common for very
small object. That is used in
the miniaturisation of the transistor, which makes
up the physical computer around
us.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div><u1:p class=""></u1:p><u1:p class="">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"
face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:
11.0pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></font><span
lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font size="2"
face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-weight:bold"
lang="EN-US">“Of course some people
confuse
the evidences for physical laws with
evidences that such laws are primary,
but
that is just because they “believe” in
some natural world to begin
with.”<u1:p class=""></u1:p></span></font></b><span
lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font size="2"
face="Calibri" color="#0432ff"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF;font-weight:bold"
lang="EN-US">Q: What is
primary?</span></font></b><b><span
style="font-weight:bold" lang="EN-US"> </span></b><font
color="#0432ff"><span style="color:#0432FF"
lang="EN-US">Indeed, physical laws
are not <b><span style="font-weight:bold">primary</span></b>,
in the sense of
eternal and unchangeable, as they evolve
with the universe*. </span></font><span
lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</u1:p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">I
am not sure if many physicist would agree with
this. I don’t know a
physical laws which would have evolved, except in
speculative theory used to
explain the big-bang. With mechanism, the laws of
physics becomes eternal and
unchangeable laws derivable from their
theology/psychology/biology, which are
themselves eternal and unchangeable, given that
they belong to
arithmetic/computer science. The only things which
change are the indexical
notion, like here and now, or me and you, which
are related to interval view of
arithmetic from arithmetic. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">Physicalism
is mainly the idea that there is an ontological
physical universe, and that the
fundamental laws on which everything supervene are
the physical law. With
Mechanism this can be shown leading to
contradiction, en eventually we need to
derive the physical laws from number
psychology/theology. Then incompleteness
provides the tools for doing this, and to make the
testing. Mechanism makes
metaphysics into a science, even an experimental
science.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div link="blue" vlink="purple">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"
color="#0432ff"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF"
lang="EN-US">Primary is the <b><span
style="font-weight:bold">EXISTENCE</span></b>
of the world that we all share
and experience.</span></font><span lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">That
remains correct if by world you mean the
(standard) arithmetical reality. The
physical world is an emergent organisation coming
from the (non trivial and
irreducible) arithmetic, taken in its after-Gödel
understanding. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">Many
people agree that Gödel’s theorem kills the
reductionist conception of
man and mathematics, but it kills already the
reductionist conception on
natural numbers and machines.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">Mechanism
leads to a sort of fictionalism for analysis, set
theory and physics. A
physical universe becomes a convenient fiction
invented by the numbers to
figure out what they are, somehow. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div link="blue" vlink="purple">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"
color="#0432ff"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF"
lang="EN-US">It presents itself in both
fluid,
intrinsic ways (subjective feelings and
emotions) and crisp, well defined
inter-subjective forms (as in sciences,
logics, mathematics).</span></font><span
lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">OK.
But with mechanism, the physical somehow arise
from the natural or canonical
inter-subjective agreement between all universal
machines/number.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">To
help a bit, I always fix one universal system in
my head, say the programming
language LISP. Then we can enumerate all machines
(Lisp program), by length
order, and by alphabetical order for those having
the same length. This permits
the enumeration of all partial computable
functions (which include the total
one, defined on all numbers). I identify a machine
with its number in that
enumeration (like we can identify a vectors with
its coordinate once we have
chosen a basis in linear algebra).<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div><u1:p class=""></u1:p><u1:p class="">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"
face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:
11.0pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></font><span
lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font size="2"
face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-weight:bold"
lang="EN-US">“We can’t have both
Mechanism in cognitive science, and
materialism, or just physicalism, in the
“natural science”. That has been shown
logically inconsistent.”<u1:p class=""></u1:p></span></font></b><span
lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"
face="Calibri" color="#0432ff"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF"
lang="EN-US">It depends on the choice of
“mechanism”, “cognitive science”
(classical-computationalist disembodied or
contemporary EEEE models of
cognition), along with the kind of
“physicalism” assumed, and even
the choice of “natural sciences” to
support your thesis. In the
paper below (*) I argue, for a given
choice of all those terms and with heavy
reliance on the contemporary scientific
knowledge, that computational mind is
not only (naturally) compatible but
essentially dependent on its physical
substrate on succession of levels of
organization. </span></font><span
lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</u1:p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">That
is true for the human mind. And it is important
for the human application. But
with mechanism, eventually, we get very close to
de Chardin, when he says that
we are not humans having spiritual existence, but
we are spiritual beings
having a human existence. We are not human
thinking about numbers, but we are
numbers thinking about humans.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div><u1:p class=""></u1:p>
<div link="blue" vlink="purple">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font size="2"
face="Calibri" color="#0432ff"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF;font-weight:bold"
lang="EN-US">Q: If we
have such model </span></font></b><font
color="#0432ff"><span style="color:#0432FF"
lang="EN-US">in which “mechanisms” of
information
processing (natural computation in the
framework of computing nature) from the
lowest levels of exchanges between
elementary particles to the highest levels
of exchanges among people of symbolic
structures and artifacts, wouldn’t
that constitute a counter-example to the
claim that mind and body have nothing
to do with each other ? (**)</span></font><span
lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">With
Mechanism, we have the curious, non Aristotelian,
consequences that bodies are
constructs of the mind, but also a result of the
fact that we don’t know
which computations, among an infinities in
arithmetic, supports us. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">A
material reality, with some primitive substrate,
is unable to select a
computation from the infinitely many computations
going through our state in
arithmetic. That would require an added non
computational ability to the brain
or to the particles, or whatever we assume to be
physically primary.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">But
the overall picture is the same, except that the
physical supervene of the
number theology which supervene on elementary
arithmetic.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">It
is not necessarily a pleasant theory, as we can no
more die in this theory,
consciousness becomes a sort of inescapable
prison, and arithmetic, if it
contains some paradise, contains also some hell,
etc. What is nice, is that it
is a vaccine against reductionism of both man and
machine.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">I
hope this helps. I refer to my papers for the
proof of the assertions, and the
description of why we can say that most of current
physics favours mechanism on
naturalism. With the important understanding that
this does not mean that
nature does not exist or is not important. It is
only not primarily real.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">Like
I say above, we get:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">NUMBERS
=> CONSCIOUSNESS => PHYSICAL-REALITY =>
HUMAN-CONSCIOUSNESS<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">Many
posts in this list plays on the <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">PHYSICAL-REALITY
=> HUMAN-CONSCIOUSNESS,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">part,
where I have no critics. But sometimes some people
seems to conclude that
digital machine, à-la Church and Turing cannot be
subject of private conscious
experience, which is a string assumption, and
indeed it is needed to have a
primary reality. I prefer to remain open to
Mechanism, and which case, that
part going from the physical reality to the human
consciousness is itself a
consequence of us being universal number,
borrowing the consciousness common to
all universal machine, which is also the
consciousness we should come back in
some state of sleep, and plausibly after the death
of the biological body.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">I
hoping this is not too much shocking. Please ask
any question if something is
not clear. I do agree with many important points
made in this list by diverse
people, but sometimes, some comments are presented
like if it was in contradiction
with Digital Mechanism, when in fact they are
confirming long term prediction I
derived from it. I hesitate to make my point,
because it is of no use in
any direct applications. It concerns more the
afterlife than life per se. But
as it predicts the very weird quantum computing
notion,I tend to think that
nature confirms all this (which again is not an
argument for saying it has to
be true, of course) and can be helpful to get rid
of the reductionist 19th
century conception of numbers and machines. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">Kind
Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">Bruno<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<u1:p class=""></u1:p>
<div link="blue" vlink="purple">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:
11.0pt" lang="SV"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"
color="#0432ff"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF"
lang="EN-US">Gordana<u1:p class=""></u1:p></span></font><span
lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"
color="#0432ff"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF"
lang="EN-US"><u1:p class=""> </u1:p></span></font><span
lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"
color="#0432ff"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF"
lang="EN-US"><u1:p class=""> </u1:p></span></font><span
lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"
color="#0432ff"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF"
lang="EN-US">* <a
href="http://www.gordana.se/work/PUBLICATIONS-files/2019-Laws%20of%20Science%20as%20Laws%20of%20Nature.pdf"
moz-do-not-send="true"><font color="#0432ff"><span
style="color:#0432FF">http://www.gordana.se/work/PUBLICATIONS-files/2019-Laws%20of%20Science%20as%20Laws%20of%20Nature.pdf</span></font></a>
<u1:p class=""></u1:p></span></font><span
lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"
color="#0432ff"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF"
lang="EN-US"><u1:p class=""> </u1:p></span></font><span
lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"
color="#0432ff"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#0432FF"
lang="EN-US">** No model or framework can
explain
everything about the world (including humans)
at the same time, but
info-computational approach can be used to
model some interesting aspects of
the mind emergent from, in interaction with
its matter/energy substrate.<u1:p class=""></u1:p></span></font><span
lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:
11.0pt" lang="EN-US"><u1:p class=""> </u1:p></span></font><span
lang="SV"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font size="2"
face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:
11.0pt;font-weight:bold" lang="SV">From: </span></font></b><span
lang="SV">Fis <<a
href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es"
moz-do-not-send="true">fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es</a>>
on behalf of Bruno Marchal <<a
href="mailto:marchal@ulb.ac.be"
moz-do-not-send="true">marchal@ulb.ac.be</a>><br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Date: </span></b>Thursday,
13 June 2019 at
15:11<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">To: </span></b>fis
<<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es"
moz-do-not-send="true">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>><br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject: </span></b>Re:
[Fis] New
Perspectives. Reply to Stan<u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div><u1:p class="">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"
face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:
11.0pt" lang="SV"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</u1:p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:
11.0pt" lang="SV">Joseph, <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<u1:p class=""></u1:p></div>
<div><u1:p class="">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"
face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:
11.0pt" lang="SV"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</u1:p></div>
<div><u1:p class="">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"
face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:
11.0pt" lang="SV"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"
type="cite">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"
face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:
11.0pt" lang="SV">On 12 Jun 2019, at
16:40, <st1:personname w:st="on">Joseph
Brenner</st1:personname>
<<a
href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch"
moz-do-not-send="true">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<u1:p class=""></u1:p></div>
</div>
<div><u1:p class="">
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"
face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:
11.0pt" lang="SV"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</u1:p></div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"
face="Lucida Sans Unicode"
color="navy"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Lucida
Sans Unicode";
color:navy" lang="EN-GB">Stan,</span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"
face="Lucida Sans Unicode"
color="navy"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Lucida
Sans Unicode";
color:navy" lang="EN-GB"> </span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"
face="Lucida Sans Unicode"
color="navy"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Lucida
Sans Unicode";
color:navy" lang="EN-GB">Thank you
for your question. I reply with a
modified excerpt from
an article in<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><i><span
style="font-style:italic">Philosophies.<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></i>The
full article is Open Access. I am
indebted to Rafael Capurro for
part of this
formulation. Comments welcome.</span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"
face="Lucida Sans Unicode"
color="navy"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Lucida
Sans Unicode";
color:navy" lang="EN-GB"> </span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"
face="Lucida Sans Unicode"
color="navy"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Lucida
Sans Unicode";
color:navy" lang="EN-GB">Best
wishes,</span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"
face="Lucida Sans Unicode"
color="navy"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Lucida
Sans Unicode";
color:navy" lang="EN-GB"> </span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"
face="Lucida Sans Unicode"
color="navy"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Lucida
Sans Unicode";
color:navy" lang="EN-GB">Joseph</span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"
face="Lucida Sans Unicode"
color="navy"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Lucida
Sans Unicode";
color:navy" lang="EN-GB"> </span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
text-align:justify"><font size="2"
face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-GB">Natural
Philosophy: Excerpt from Brenner, J.
2018. The
Naturalization of Natural Philosophy.<span
class="apple-converted-space"><i><span
style="font-style:italic"> </span></i></span><i><span
style="font-style:
italic">Philosophies<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b><span
style="font-weight:bold">2018<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b></span></i>3,
41.</span></font><span lang="SV"><u1:p
class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
text-align:justify;text-indent:35.4pt"><font
size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-GB">Natural
Philosophy deals with the question
of nature as a whole stated by beings
(ourselves) that find themselves in
nature without having the possibility
of a holistic view, being ourselves in
nature and not beyond it. The fact
that we are able to ask this question
means
that we have some kind of
pre-knowledge about nature as a whole
while at the
same time this pre-knowledge is
problematic, otherwise we would not
ask the
question and would not be able to
become natural philosophers.</span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
text-align:justify;text-indent:35.4pt"><font
size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-GB">The
question then changes to the
difference
between nature and reality as a whole,
including fictions, non-verifiable
beliefs and intangible objects of
thought. Since the idea that classical
Natural Philosophy evolved into
science seems correct,
we are left, for the domain of
Natural Philosophy, with only a
speculative interpretation of nature
viewed in its entirety. This
interpretation is,<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><i><span
style="font-style:italic">ipso
facto</span></i>, at a lower
ontological level than the science
which has
largely replaced it. Much of the 20th
Century linguistic turn, expressed in
both analytical and phenomenological
and residual transcendental
traditions, is
well visible in contemporary
philosophy.</span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
text-align:justify;text-indent:35.4pt"><font
size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-GB">The
reaction to this unsatisfactory state
of affairs has been the reinstatement
of realisms and materialisms of
various
kinds, associated today with the names
of Derrida, Badiou, Zizek, and others.
The ‘ontological turn’ in philosophy
is a term of art that designates
dissatisfaction with descriptions of
reality based on analytical, semantic
criteria of truth. Starting with
Heidegger’s critique of hermeneutics
and
the basing of philosophy on human
life, the ontological turn is a
challenge to
neo-Kantian epistemologies, and looks
to what the structure of the world
might
be like to enable scientific, that is,
non-absolute knowledge. Unfortunately,
ontological theories have been hobbled
by the retention of static terms whose
characteristics are determined by
bivalent logic. In 2002, Priest
suggested
that such an ontological turn in
philosophy was taking place, away from
language in the direction of an
contradictorial view of reality.
Priest
proposed paraconsistent logic as
appropriate to this turn, but his
system suffers
from the epistemological limitations
of paraconsistency. Lupasco, on the
other
hand, anticipated the ontological turn
by some 60 years. (In the complete
article, I show that his logical
system can be used to differentiate
between
Natural Philosophy and Philosophy<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><i><span
style="font-style:italic">tout
court.</span></i>)</span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
text-align:justify;text-indent:35.4pt"><font
size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-GB">The
most important point for me is that
Natural Philosophy tells us something
real about the world that is
consistent
with our best science, physical,
biological and cognitive. Speculative
philosophy can always re-illuminate
‘eternal’ questions such as
what it means to be a thinking being
in a non-thinking environment. This
non-Natural Philosophy, to repeat,
exists for ‘natural’ reasons: it
is a natural necessity for human
beings to create it, by a natural
process, but
it is not part of nature<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><i><span
style="font-style:italic">qua</span></i><span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span>content.<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><u1:p class="">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"
face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:
11.0pt" lang="SV"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</u1:p></div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"
face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:
11.0pt" lang="SV">This seems to assume
some primary natural reality, isn’t
it?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<u1:p class=""></u1:p></div>
</div>
<div><u1:p class="">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"
face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:
11.0pt" lang="SV"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</u1:p></div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"
face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:
11.0pt" lang="SV">As I have shown,
this requires a non computationalist
theory of mind,
which seems to me to be highly
speculative.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<u1:p class=""></u1:p></div>
</div>
<div><u1:p class="">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"
face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:
11.0pt" lang="SV"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</u1:p></div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"
face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:
11.0pt" lang="SV">I am not sure we can
avoid the mind-body problem in a
philosophy of
information context. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<u1:p class=""></u1:p></div>
</div>
<div><u1:p class="">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"
face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:
11.0pt" lang="SV"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</u1:p></div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"
face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:
11.0pt" lang="SV">There are no
evidences for physicalism or for a
physical primary
reality, nor are there evidences for a
non computationalist theory of mind.
Of
course some people confuse the
evidences for physical laws with
evidences that
such laws are primary, but that is
just because they “believes” in
some natural world to begin with. I
think it is better to be agnostic and
see
where the facts (experimental) and
working theories lead us.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<u1:p class=""></u1:p></div>
</div>
<div><u1:p class="">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"
face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:
11.0pt" lang="SV"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</u1:p></div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"
face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:
11.0pt" lang="SV">We can’t have both
Mechanism in cognitive science, and
materialism, or just physicalism, in
the “natural science”. That
has been shown logically inconsistent
(ask for reference if interested).<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<u1:p class=""></u1:p></div>
</div>
<div><u1:p class="">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"
face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:
11.0pt" lang="SV"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</u1:p></div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"
face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:
11.0pt" lang="SV">Bruno<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<u1:p class=""></u1:p></div>
</div>
<div><u1:p class="">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"
face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:
11.0pt" lang="SV"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</u1:p></div>
<div><u1:p class="">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"
face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:
11.0pt" lang="SV"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</u1:p></div>
<div><u1:p class="">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"
face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:
11.0pt" lang="SV"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</u1:p></div>
<div><u1:p class="">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"
face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:
11.0pt" lang="SV"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</u1:p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"
face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:
11.0pt" lang="SV"><br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<u1:p class=""></u1:p>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"
type="cite">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"
face="Lucida Sans Unicode"
color="navy"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Lucida
Sans Unicode";
color:navy" lang="EN-GB"> </span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"
face="Arial" color="navy"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"
lang="EN-GB"> </span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal"
style="text-align:center" align="center"><font
size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"
lang="EN-US">
<hr width="100%" size="1"
align="center">
</span></font></div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font size="2"
face="Tahoma"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold"
lang="EN-US">From:</span></font></b><span
class="apple-converted-space"><font
size="2" face="Tahoma"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma"
lang="EN-US"> </span></font></span><font
size="2" face="Tahoma"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma"
lang="EN-US">Fis
[<a
href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es"
moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es</a>]<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b><span
style="font-weight:bold">On
Behalf Of<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b>Stanley
N
Salthe<br>
<b><span
style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b><span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span>mardi,
11 juin 2019 21:09<br>
<b><span
style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b><span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span>fis<br>
<b><span
style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b><span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re:
[Fis] New Perspectives</span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"
face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:
11.0pt" lang="SV"> <u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"
face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:
11.0pt" lang="SV">Joseph --
Would you like to write how you
define Natural Philosophy?<u1:p
class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"
face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:
11.0pt" lang="SV"> <u1:p
class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"
face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:
11.0pt" lang="SV">STAN<u1:p
class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"
face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:
11.0pt" lang="SV"> <u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"
face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:
11.0pt" lang="SV">On Tue, Jun
11, 2019 at 12:03 PM<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><st1:personname
w:st="on">Joseph Brenner</st1:personname><span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><<a
href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch"
moz-do-not-send="true">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>>
wrote:<u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid
#CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;
margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt"
type="cite">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font
size="2" face="Lucida Sans
Unicode"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Lucida
Sans Unicode""
lang="EN-US">Dear Pedro and
All,</span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font
size="2" face="Lucida Sans
Unicode"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Lucida
Sans Unicode""
lang="EN-US"> </span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font
size="2" face="Lucida Sans
Unicode"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Lucida
Sans Unicode""
lang="EN-US">Many thanks are
due
to you, Pedro, for this new
and valuable formulation of
the – daunting -
task at hand. The task is
logical and philosophical,
as well as scientific.
Philosophy here, exemplified
by the Philosophy of
Information, does not mean
standard
discussions of ‘where did we
come from’ and ‘does a
transcendent deity exist’,
which are as sterile in
their way as the
excesses of the IT and AI
ideologists. Natural
Philosophy can be a
‘vehicle’ for interaction
between people of good will,
the
collaboration that you point
to that may help to advance
IS4SI. Some of you who
may not have been at the
Conference in San Francisco
(Berkeley) may wish to
look at abstracts of papers
from the Philosophy of
Information sub-conferences
at the 2015, 2017 and 2019
Summit conferences on
Information.</span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font
size="2" face="Lucida Sans
Unicode"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Lucida
Sans Unicode""
lang="EN-US"> </span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font
size="2" face="Lucida Sans
Unicode"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Lucida
Sans Unicode""
lang="EN-US">To revitalize
the
list is indeed a key first
step. But it starts, in my
opinion, with some
self-examination,
examination of whether one’s
own theories are just
‘pet’ theories. Applying
this criterion to my own
Logic in Reality,
about which I have written
on several occasions, I
claim that it is not just a
pet theory. It is a new
perspective on how
information, logic and
thought
operate as real processes,
following laws within the
laws of physics, without
loss of a human, ethical
dimension. However, LIR
makes many demands on one.
It
requires an understanding
and acceptance of what is /<i><span
style="font-style:
italic">not</span></i>/
Natural Philosophy, which
may include some of the
ideas
that have appeared in this
list. </span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font
size="2" face="Lucida Sans
Unicode"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Lucida
Sans Unicode""
lang="EN-US"> </span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font
size="2" face="Lucida Sans
Unicode"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Lucida
Sans Unicode""
lang="EN-US">Again,
accepting my
own criterion of interactive
non-separability, I do not
call for any exclusions
or limitations on the list.
I only wish that everyone
makes the necessary
effort to position his or
her own views in relation to
the overriding need for
furthering the Common Good.
The sum of all such honest
self-referential (or
second-order recursive)
opinions of people about
their own work would itself
be
a useful creative effort, I
think.</span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font
size="2" face="Lucida Sans
Unicode"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Lucida
Sans Unicode""
lang="EN-US"> </span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font
size="2" face="Lucida Sans
Unicode"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Lucida
Sans Unicode""
lang="EN-US">Thank you and
best
wishes,</span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font
size="2" face="Lucida Sans
Unicode"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Lucida
Sans Unicode""
lang="EN-US"> </span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font
size="2" face="Lucida Sans
Unicode"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Lucida
Sans Unicode""
lang="EN-US">Joseph<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font
size="2" face="Courier New"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""
lang="EN-US"> </span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font
size="2" face="Courier New"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""
lang="EN-US"> </span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font
size="2" face="Courier New"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""
lang="EN-US"> </span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font
size="2" face="Courier New"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""
lang="EN-US"> </span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font
size="2" face="Courier New"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""
lang="EN-US"> </span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font
size="2" face="Courier New"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""
lang="EN-US">-----Original
Message-----<br>
From: Fis [mailto:<a
href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es</a>]
On Behalf Of Pedro C.
Marijuan<br>
Sent: mardi, 11 juin 2019
13:05<br>
To: 'fis'<br>
Subject: [Fis] New
Perspectives</span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font
size="2" face="Courier New"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""
lang="EN-US"> </span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font
size="2" face="Courier New"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""
lang="EN-US">Dear FIS
Colleagues,</span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font
size="2" face="Courier New"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""
lang="EN-US"> </span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font
size="2" face="Courier New"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""
lang="EN-US">A few days ago
took place
the IS4SI Meeting, in SFco,
with one of the<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font
size="2" face="Courier New"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""
lang="EN-US">parallel
sessions devoted to
FIS and other sessions also
with presence<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font
size="2" face="Courier New"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""
lang="EN-US">of veteran
parties of this
list. Relevant speakers in
the plenary<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font
size="2" face="Courier New"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""
lang="EN-US">sessions
covered the main
topic of the conference,
expressed as: Where<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font
size="2" face="Courier New"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""
lang="EN-US">is the I in
Artificial
Intelligence and the Meaning
in Information? From<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font
size="2" face="Courier New"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""
lang="EN-US">Tristan Harris
to Melanie
Mitchell, to Paul Verschure,
etc.</span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font
size="2" face="Courier New"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""
lang="EN-US"> </span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font
size="2" face="Courier New"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""
lang="EN-US">In my view the
perspectives
in these IT fields are
changing<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font
size="2" face="Courier New"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""
lang="EN-US">significantly.
The
tremendous hype in AI, Deep
Learning, IOT, etc. keeps<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></font><span lang="SV"><u1:p
class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font
size="2" face="Courier New"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""
lang="EN-US">unabated, but
critical
voices are being heard, not
just from a few<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font
size="2" face="Courier New"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""
lang="EN-US">Academia
corners as usual,
but now by leading
technologists and<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font
size="2" face="Courier New"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""
lang="EN-US">researchers of
big companies
in these very fields.
"Dissent" on the<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font
size="2" face="Courier New"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""
lang="EN-US">contents,
methodologies, and
consequences of social
applications is growing.</span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font
size="2" face="Courier New"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""
lang="EN-US"> </span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font
size="2" face="Courier New"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""
lang="EN-US">The industrial
development
of this IT sector
--notwithstanding the<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font
size="2" face="Courier New"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""
lang="EN-US">inflated
proclamations and
all the hype of the gurus--
does not mean the<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font
size="2" face="Courier New"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""
lang="EN-US">arrival of some
great
singularity, or the
symbiosis with machines, or<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></font><span lang="SV"><u1:p
class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font
size="2" face="Courier New"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""
lang="EN-US">widespread
menace of robots
& cyborgs... these are
slogans coming from<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font
size="2" face="Courier New"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""
lang="EN-US">the
industrialists to
maintain social/ideological
preeminence for their<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font
size="2" face="Courier New"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""
lang="EN-US">whole sector.
Rather I think
they are starting to feel
the consequences<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font
size="2" face="Courier New"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""
lang="EN-US">of their social
overstretching in different
ways.</span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font
size="2" face="Courier New"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""
lang="EN-US"> </span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font
size="2" face="Courier New"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""
lang="EN-US">The fundamental
point, in my
opinion, is that our
solitary, isolated<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font
size="2" face="Courier New"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""
lang="EN-US">efforts from a
few Academia
places (Sciences &
Humanities) in the quest<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></font><span lang="SV"><u1:p
class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font
size="2" face="Courier New"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""
lang="EN-US">for new
perspectives in
Information Science, and not
just AI<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font
size="2" face="Courier New"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""
lang="EN-US">development,
should not
isolated any more. We can
now establish an<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font
size="2" face="Courier New"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""
lang="EN-US">interesting
dialog and
partnership with those new
"dissenters" of the<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font
size="2" face="Courier New"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""
lang="EN-US">technology in
its concepts,
methods, and social
applications. It is upon<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></font><span lang="SV"><u1:p
class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font
size="2" face="Courier New"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""
lang="EN-US">us to improve
the discussion
procedures, the
collaborations, the<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font
size="2" face="Courier New"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""
lang="EN-US">organization,
etc. so that
this opportunity might
materialize<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font
size="2" face="Courier New"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""
lang="EN-US">progressively.
Do not ask me
how... In any case I pointed
out three<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font
size="2" face="Courier New"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""
lang="EN-US">future
directions for IS4SI
advancement: community
building, attracting<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font
size="2" face="Courier New"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""
lang="EN-US">scientific/technological
avantgarde,
and organizational
improvement.</span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font
size="2" face="Courier New"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""
lang="EN-US"> </span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font
size="2" face="Courier New"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""
lang="EN-US">Revitalizing
this discussion
list--shouldn't it be one of
the first steps?</span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font
size="2" face="Courier New"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""
lang="EN-US"> </span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font
size="2" face="Courier New"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""
lang="EN-US">Best greetings
to all,</span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font
size="2" face="Courier New"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""
lang="EN-US"> </span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font
size="2" face="Courier New"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""
lang="EN-US">--Pedro</span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font
size="2" face="Courier New"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""
lang="EN-US"> </span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font
size="2" face="Courier New"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""
lang="EN-US">-------------------------------------------------</span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font
size="2" face="Courier New"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""
lang="EN-US">Pedro C.
Marijuán</span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font
size="2" face="Courier New"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""
lang="EN-US">Grupo de
Bioinformación /
Bioinformation Group</span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font
size="2" face="Courier New"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""
lang="EN-US"> </span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font
size="2" face="Courier New"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""
lang="EN-US"><a
href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a></span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font
size="2" face="Courier New"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""
lang="EN-US"><a
href="https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fsites.google.com%2Fsite%2Fpedrocmarijuan%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cgordana.dodig-crnkovic%40mdh.se%7Ce3cf40966de148aaf4b108d6f0009e4b%7Ca1795b64dabd4758b988b309292316cf%7C0%7C0%7C636960282786234083&sdata=rRk9RxUKvWoq1nnH7eSkg5gRTil1tVUTgTK0pDa5Ihg%3D&reserved=0"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/</a></span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font
size="2" face="Courier New"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""
lang="EN-US">-------------------------------------------------</span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font
size="2" face="Courier New"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""
lang="EN-US"> </span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font
size="2" face="Courier New"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""
lang="EN-US"> </span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font
size="2" face="Courier New"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""
lang="EN-US">---</span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font
size="2" face="Courier New"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""
lang="EN-US">El software de
antivirus
Avast ha analizado este
correo electrónico en busca
de virus.</span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
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size="2" face="Courier New"><span
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lang="EN-US"><a
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target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.avast.com/antivirus</a></span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font
size="2" face="Courier New"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""
lang="EN-US">_______________________________________________</span></font><span
lang="SV"><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"
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target="_blank"
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class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"
face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:
11.0pt" lang="SV">_______________________________________________<br>
Fis mailing list<br>
<a
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moz-do-not-send="true">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br>
<a
href="https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flistas.unizar.es%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ffis&data=02%7C01%7Cgordana.dodig-crnkovic%40mdh.se%7Ce3cf40966de148aaf4b108d6f0009e4b%7Ca1795b64dabd4758b988b309292316cf%7C0%7C0%7C636960282786264068&sdata=%2F3c%2BLJrQ9VLXSWXyuWjGNwdxCc2QSslqv%2BIyz%2F1ooX8%3D&reserved=0"
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<div><u1:p class="">
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2"
face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:
11.0pt" lang="SV"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
Fis mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<p><br>
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
-------------------------------------------------
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/">http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/</a>
------------------------------------------------- </pre>
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