<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">Here I reply to Pedro's challenge to arrange three well-known Principles into a Subsumptive Hierarchy.<div><br></div><div>







<p class="m_1629126591270395848gmail-p1"><span class="m_1629126591270395848gmail-s1">GODEL:  </span><span class="m_1629126591270395848gmail-s2">The first incompleteness theorem states that no consistent system of axioms whose theorems can be listed by an effective procedure is capable of proving all truths about the arithmetic of the natural numbers. </span></p>
<p class="m_1629126591270395848gmail-p2"><span style="line-height:1.5">       SNS:  Logic. You need a more encompassing system to demonstrate consistency of a system of axioms. This invites use of the subsumptive hierarchy; {{ }}.</span><br><span class="m_1629126591270395848gmail-s2"></span></p>
<p class="m_1629126591270395848gmail-p2"><span class="m_1629126591270395848gmail-s1" style="line-height:1.5">CHURCH-TURING: </span><span class="m_1629126591270395848gmail-s2" style="line-height:1.5"> Computation:  A function on the natural numbers is computable by a human being following an algorithm if and only if it is computable by a Turing machine.</span><br><span class="m_1629126591270395848gmail-s2"></span></p>
<p class="m_1629126591270395848gmail-p4"><span style="line-height:1.5">        SNS: Mechanicism.</span><br><span class="m_1629126591270395848gmail-s2"></span></p>
<p class="m_1629126591270395848gmail-p4"><span class="m_1629126591270395848gmail-s1" style="line-height:1.5">HEISENBERG: </span><span class="m_1629126591270395848gmail-s2" style="line-height:1.5"> Measurement.   The position and also the velocity of an object cannot both be measured exactly, at the same time.</span><br><span class="m_1629126591270395848gmail-s2"></span></p>
<p class="m_1629126591270395848gmail-p4"><span style="line-height:1.5">       SNS: Measurement is physical and disturbs the measured, changing it.</span><br><span class="m_1629126591270395848gmail-s2"></span></p>
<p class="m_1629126591270395848gmail-p4"><span style="line-height:1.5"><br></span></p><p class="m_1629126591270395848gmail-p4"><span style="line-height:1.5">Thus, in the subsumptive hierarchy:</span><br><span class="m_1629126591270395848gmail-s2"></span></p>
<p class="m_1629126591270395848gmail-p1"><span class="m_1629126591270395848gmail-s2">{ logic --> { mechanicism projected onto material world --> { contingency in material world }}} </span></p><p class="m_1629126591270395848gmail-p1"><span class="m_1629126591270395848gmail-s2"><br></span></p><p class="m_1629126591270395848gmail-p1"><span class="m_1629126591270395848gmail-s2">STAN</span></p></div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Feb 26, 2019 at 3:15 PM Pedro C. Marijuan <<a href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" target="_blank">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
  
    
  
  <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
    <div class="gmail-m_1629126591270395848gmail-m_-3611436872471830313moz-cite-prefix">See the red color and big font below
      ("fundamental principles: Godel, etc. ")<br>
      <br>
      El 26/02/2019 a las 21:09, Stanley N Salthe escribió:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite">
      
      <div dir="ltr">Pedro -- Sorry, but I don't see the Three
        Principles in this message. Could you please resend them? Thank
        you.
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>STAN<br>
          <div><br>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
      <br>
      <div class="gmail_quote">
        <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Feb 26, 2019 at 8:26
          AM Pedro C. Marijuan <<a href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" target="_blank">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>>
          wrote:<br>
        </div>
        <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
          <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
            <div class="gmail-m_1629126591270395848gmail-m_-3611436872471830313gmail-m_8544060259583124931moz-cite-prefix">Yes,
              Stan, they are below. I repeat herein, see the context in
              the message.<br>
              <font size="+2"><b><font color="#990000">"inevitably
                    reappears later on in strange but fundamental
                    principles: Godel, Heisenberg, Church-Turing... They
                    basically consist in limits of thought..."</font></b></font><br>
              Perhaps you can post in the list a composite with the
              response to the principles too<br>
              --Pedro<br>
              <br>
              <br>
              <br>
              El 26/02/2019 a las 14:08, Stanley N Salthe escribió:<br>
            </div>
            <blockquote type="cite">
              <div dir="ltr">Pedro -- Thanks, but ... I don't see the
                "three principles below". Can you repost?
                <div>Also, please advance this discussion to the list (I
                  just forgot).<br>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <div>STAN</div>
                </div>
              </div>
              <br>
              <div class="gmail_quote">
                <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Feb 26, 2019
                  at 7:55 AM Pedro C. Marijuan <<a href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" target="_blank">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>>
                  wrote:<br>
                </div>
                <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
                  <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
                    <div class="gmail-m_1629126591270395848gmail-m_-3611436872471830313gmail-m_8544060259583124931gmail-m_-1780053587904366494moz-cite-prefix">OK
                      Stan, but how would you put in hierarchical
                      ordering those three principles below?<br>
                      By the way, you have not posted to the list (only
                      to me).<br>
                      Best--Pedro<br>
                      <br>
                      El 25/02/2019 a las 21:15, Stanley N Salthe
                      escribió:<br>
                    </div>
                    <blockquote type="cite">
                      <div dir="ltr">Pedro -- Regarding limits, I again
                        advance a litany of limitations as shown in
                        hierarchical form (using the subsumptive
                        hierarchy format),
                        <div>suggesting how limitations and biases are
                          piled upon us.<br>
                          <div><br>
                          </div>
                          <div> (physico-chemical {biological {animal
                            {mammalian {primate {human {languaged }}}}}}</div>
                        </div>
                        <div><br>
                        </div>
                        <div>Of course, each level opens up new,
                          increasingly limited, opportunities for new
                          explorations.</div>
                        <div><br>
                        </div>
                        <div>STAN</div>
                        <div><br>
                        </div>
                        <div><br>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                      <br>
                      <div class="gmail_quote">
                        <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Feb
                          25, 2019 at 1:42 PM Pedro C. Marijuan <<a href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" target="_blank">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>>
                          wrote:<br>
                        </div>
                        <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
                          <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
                            <div class="gmail-m_1629126591270395848gmail-m_-3611436872471830313gmail-m_8544060259583124931gmail-m_-1780053587904366494gmail-m_2168157932639419346moz-cite-prefix">Dear
                              Karl and FIS Colleagues,<br>
                              <br>
                              Your message has made me think a couple of
                              subjects. First, I have acknowledged
                              several times, both publicly and
                              privately, that your approach to
                              estimating the multidimensional partitions
                              on limited sets (the limit of distinctions
                              when multiple qualities are piled upon
                              elements of finite sets) is highly
                              original and may find application in
                              different fields. I think particularly in
                              hippocampus' space/time organization of
                              our spike sequences into binding percepts;
                              probably in fields of physics too. But on
                              the other hand, I have always disagreed on
                              your (over)extension to DNA triplets,
                              which has received a strong emphasis from
                              your part ... Well, it is my personal
                              opinion, and it may be quite wrong, of
                              course.<br>
                              <br>
                              Anyhow, the above has taken me to the next
                              reflection, somehow outlandish, that
                              concerns "limits". I have some vague
                              memories of a reflection in C.Booker
                              (2004; or was it in Bonnet 2006?) on why
                              we are not conscious of our own
                              limitations and incur in quite many
                              idiosyncratic biases, which are so well
                              captured in narratives. I will try to put
                              it in a more conceptual way: our thinking
                              limitations do not let us establish the
                              limits of our thought. It has individual
                              consequences in our terrible inclination
                              to overextend paradigms, but also a more
                              "abstract", collective lack of final
                              anchors. <font size="+2" color="#990000">There
                                is a false closure attempted that fails,<b>
                                  and inevitably reappears later on in
                                  strange but fundamental principles:
                                  Godel, Heisenberg, Church-Turing... </b>They
                              </font>basically consist in limits of
                              thought put to the foundations of
                              universalistic disciplines. In other more
                              restricted fields, particularistic ones,
                              those principles do not appear, or better,
                              they are not needed. In the case of
                              information science, which in my view is
                              also universalistic, that kind of
                              principled limit is needed too. Once
                              properly established, or at least
                              intuited, we could better discuss on the
                              kinds of general theories that may be
                              comprehended within a really multifarious
                              enterprise such as info science.<br>
                              <br>
                              I will appreciate hearing opinions on
                              these baseless comments.<br>
                              <br>
                              Best--Pedro  <br>
                              <br>
                               <br>
                              <br>
                              El 19/02/2019 a las 12:08, Karl Javorszky
                              escribió:<br>
                            </div>
                            <blockquote type="cite">
                              <div dir="ltr">
                                <div>Dear Pedro,</div>
                                <div><br>
                                </div>
                                <div>please allow me to raise a
                                  dissenting voice to the content of
                                  following citation:</div>
                                <div><br>
                                </div>
                                <div> <span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"><i>“…On the other hand,
                                      no general theory for large
                                      non-equilibrium systems exists. 
                                      The legendary Hungarian
                                      mathematician John Von Neuman once
                                      referred to the theory of
                                      non-equilibrium systems as the
                                      “theory of non-elephants” meaning
                                      there could be no unique theory of
                                      such a vast area of science.” </i>(Per
                                    Bak, How Nature Works)</span><br>
                                  <span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"></span> </div>
                                <div>In fact, the theory has been
                                  brought to you since some 24 years, as
                                  a sequence of suggestions, proposals,
                                  models, initiatives, encouragements,
                                  requests and so forth,  that observing
                                  the interaction between sequences and
                                  mixtures  is opening up a new door to
                                  a completely fresh view of the
                                  interrelations among the parts of the
                                  world. The principles deducted from
                                  models that employ such elements which
                                  are distinguishable and concurrently
                                  both contemporaneously and
                                  sequentially labeled (as opposed to
                                  all models known hereto, which each
                                  use elements that are
                                  indistinguishable and either
                                  sequential or contemporary), these
                                  principles are valid and actually at
                                  work in Nature, on all echelles, from
                                  the subatomar to the galactic .</div>
                                <div><br>
                                </div>
                                <div>I include the abstract I submitted
                                  to IS4SI, as part of the FIS track,
                                  and hope that the colleagues will
                                  participate in bringing recgnition to
                                  the collaborative work that has gon on
                                  in this FIS chatroom since 1997. The
                                  abstract describes, in the form of a
                                  general theory, large non-equilibrium
                                  systems. By including that part of the
                                  world, which is not the case, the
                                  theory encompasses elephants and
                                  non-elephants concurrently.<br>
                                </div>
                                <div><br>
                                </div>
                                <div>Karl<span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"></span></div>
                              </div>
                            </blockquote>
                            <br>
                            <pre class="gmail-m_1629126591270395848gmail-m_-3611436872471830313gmail-m_8544060259583124931gmail-m_-1780053587904366494gmail-m_2168157932639419346moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
-------------------------------------------------
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group

<a class="gmail-m_1629126591270395848gmail-m_-3611436872471830313gmail-m_8544060259583124931gmail-m_-1780053587904366494gmail-m_2168157932639419346moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" target="_blank">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>
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------------------------------------------------- </pre>
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                        </blockquote>
                      </div>
                    </blockquote>
                    <p><br>
                    </p>
                    <pre class="gmail-m_1629126591270395848gmail-m_-3611436872471830313gmail-m_8544060259583124931gmail-m_-1780053587904366494moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
-------------------------------------------------
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group

<a class="gmail-m_1629126591270395848gmail-m_-3611436872471830313gmail-m_8544060259583124931gmail-m_-1780053587904366494moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" target="_blank">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>
<a class="gmail-m_1629126591270395848gmail-m_-3611436872471830313gmail-m_8544060259583124931gmail-m_-1780053587904366494moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/" target="_blank">http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/</a>
------------------------------------------------- </pre>
                  </div>
                </blockquote>
              </div>
            </blockquote>
            <p><br>
            </p>
            <pre class="gmail-m_1629126591270395848gmail-m_-3611436872471830313gmail-m_8544060259583124931moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
-------------------------------------------------
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group

<a class="gmail-m_1629126591270395848gmail-m_-3611436872471830313gmail-m_8544060259583124931moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" target="_blank">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>
<a class="gmail-m_1629126591270395848gmail-m_-3611436872471830313gmail-m_8544060259583124931moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/" target="_blank">http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/</a>
------------------------------------------------- </pre>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <pre class="gmail-m_1629126591270395848gmail-m_-3611436872471830313moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
-------------------------------------------------
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group

<a class="gmail-m_1629126591270395848gmail-m_-3611436872471830313moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" target="_blank">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>
<a class="gmail-m_1629126591270395848gmail-m_-3611436872471830313moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/" target="_blank">http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/</a>
------------------------------------------------- </pre>
  </div>

</blockquote></div>