<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">Here I reply to Pedro's challenge to arrange three well-known Principles into a Subsumptive Hierarchy.<div><br></div><div>
<p class="m_1629126591270395848gmail-p1"><span class="m_1629126591270395848gmail-s1">GODEL: </span><span class="m_1629126591270395848gmail-s2">The first incompleteness theorem states that no consistent system of axioms whose theorems can be listed by an effective procedure is capable of proving all truths about the arithmetic of the natural numbers. </span></p>
<p class="m_1629126591270395848gmail-p2"><span style="line-height:1.5"> SNS: Logic. You need a more encompassing system to demonstrate consistency of a system of axioms. This invites use of the subsumptive hierarchy; {{ }}.</span><br><span class="m_1629126591270395848gmail-s2"></span></p>
<p class="m_1629126591270395848gmail-p2"><span class="m_1629126591270395848gmail-s1" style="line-height:1.5">CHURCH-TURING: </span><span class="m_1629126591270395848gmail-s2" style="line-height:1.5"> Computation: A function on the natural numbers is computable by a human being following an algorithm if and only if it is computable by a Turing machine.</span><br><span class="m_1629126591270395848gmail-s2"></span></p>
<p class="m_1629126591270395848gmail-p4"><span style="line-height:1.5"> SNS: Mechanicism.</span><br><span class="m_1629126591270395848gmail-s2"></span></p>
<p class="m_1629126591270395848gmail-p4"><span class="m_1629126591270395848gmail-s1" style="line-height:1.5">HEISENBERG: </span><span class="m_1629126591270395848gmail-s2" style="line-height:1.5"> Measurement. The position and also the velocity of an object cannot both be measured exactly, at the same time.</span><br><span class="m_1629126591270395848gmail-s2"></span></p>
<p class="m_1629126591270395848gmail-p4"><span style="line-height:1.5"> SNS: Measurement is physical and disturbs the measured, changing it.</span><br><span class="m_1629126591270395848gmail-s2"></span></p>
<p class="m_1629126591270395848gmail-p4"><span style="line-height:1.5"><br></span></p><p class="m_1629126591270395848gmail-p4"><span style="line-height:1.5">Thus, in the subsumptive hierarchy:</span><br><span class="m_1629126591270395848gmail-s2"></span></p>
<p class="m_1629126591270395848gmail-p1"><span class="m_1629126591270395848gmail-s2">{ logic --> { mechanicism projected onto material world --> { contingency in material world }}} </span></p><p class="m_1629126591270395848gmail-p1"><span class="m_1629126591270395848gmail-s2"><br></span></p><p class="m_1629126591270395848gmail-p1"><span class="m_1629126591270395848gmail-s2">STAN</span></p></div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Feb 26, 2019 at 3:15 PM Pedro C. Marijuan <<a href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" target="_blank">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div class="gmail-m_1629126591270395848gmail-m_-3611436872471830313moz-cite-prefix">See the red color and big font below
("fundamental principles: Godel, etc. ")<br>
<br>
El 26/02/2019 a las 21:09, Stanley N Salthe escribió:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Pedro -- Sorry, but I don't see the Three
Principles in this message. Could you please resend them? Thank
you.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>STAN<br>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Feb 26, 2019 at 8:26
AM Pedro C. Marijuan <<a href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" target="_blank">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div class="gmail-m_1629126591270395848gmail-m_-3611436872471830313gmail-m_8544060259583124931moz-cite-prefix">Yes,
Stan, they are below. I repeat herein, see the context in
the message.<br>
<font size="+2"><b><font color="#990000">"inevitably
reappears later on in strange but fundamental
principles: Godel, Heisenberg, Church-Turing... They
basically consist in limits of thought..."</font></b></font><br>
Perhaps you can post in the list a composite with the
response to the principles too<br>
--Pedro<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
El 26/02/2019 a las 14:08, Stanley N Salthe escribió:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Pedro -- Thanks, but ... I don't see the
"three principles below". Can you repost?
<div>Also, please advance this discussion to the list (I
just forgot).<br>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>STAN</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Feb 26, 2019
at 7:55 AM Pedro C. Marijuan <<a href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" target="_blank">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div class="gmail-m_1629126591270395848gmail-m_-3611436872471830313gmail-m_8544060259583124931gmail-m_-1780053587904366494moz-cite-prefix">OK
Stan, but how would you put in hierarchical
ordering those three principles below?<br>
By the way, you have not posted to the list (only
to me).<br>
Best--Pedro<br>
<br>
El 25/02/2019 a las 21:15, Stanley N Salthe
escribió:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Pedro -- Regarding limits, I again
advance a litany of limitations as shown in
hierarchical form (using the subsumptive
hierarchy format),
<div>suggesting how limitations and biases are
piled upon us.<br>
<div><br>
</div>
<div> (physico-chemical {biological {animal
{mammalian {primate {human {languaged }}}}}}</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Of course, each level opens up new,
increasingly limited, opportunities for new
explorations.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>STAN</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Feb
25, 2019 at 1:42 PM Pedro C. Marijuan <<a href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" target="_blank">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div class="gmail-m_1629126591270395848gmail-m_-3611436872471830313gmail-m_8544060259583124931gmail-m_-1780053587904366494gmail-m_2168157932639419346moz-cite-prefix">Dear
Karl and FIS Colleagues,<br>
<br>
Your message has made me think a couple of
subjects. First, I have acknowledged
several times, both publicly and
privately, that your approach to
estimating the multidimensional partitions
on limited sets (the limit of distinctions
when multiple qualities are piled upon
elements of finite sets) is highly
original and may find application in
different fields. I think particularly in
hippocampus' space/time organization of
our spike sequences into binding percepts;
probably in fields of physics too. But on
the other hand, I have always disagreed on
your (over)extension to DNA triplets,
which has received a strong emphasis from
your part ... Well, it is my personal
opinion, and it may be quite wrong, of
course.<br>
<br>
Anyhow, the above has taken me to the next
reflection, somehow outlandish, that
concerns "limits". I have some vague
memories of a reflection in C.Booker
(2004; or was it in Bonnet 2006?) on why
we are not conscious of our own
limitations and incur in quite many
idiosyncratic biases, which are so well
captured in narratives. I will try to put
it in a more conceptual way: our thinking
limitations do not let us establish the
limits of our thought. It has individual
consequences in our terrible inclination
to overextend paradigms, but also a more
"abstract", collective lack of final
anchors. <font size="+2" color="#990000">There
is a false closure attempted that fails,<b>
and inevitably reappears later on in
strange but fundamental principles:
Godel, Heisenberg, Church-Turing... </b>They
</font>basically consist in limits of
thought put to the foundations of
universalistic disciplines. In other more
restricted fields, particularistic ones,
those principles do not appear, or better,
they are not needed. In the case of
information science, which in my view is
also universalistic, that kind of
principled limit is needed too. Once
properly established, or at least
intuited, we could better discuss on the
kinds of general theories that may be
comprehended within a really multifarious
enterprise such as info science.<br>
<br>
I will appreciate hearing opinions on
these baseless comments.<br>
<br>
Best--Pedro <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
El 19/02/2019 a las 12:08, Karl Javorszky
escribió:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Dear Pedro,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>please allow me to raise a
dissenting voice to the content of
following citation:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div> <span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"><i>“…On the other hand,
no general theory for large
non-equilibrium systems exists.
The legendary Hungarian
mathematician John Von Neuman once
referred to the theory of
non-equilibrium systems as the
“theory of non-elephants” meaning
there could be no unique theory of
such a vast area of science.” </i>(Per
Bak, How Nature Works)</span><br>
<span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"></span> </div>
<div>In fact, the theory has been
brought to you since some 24 years, as
a sequence of suggestions, proposals,
models, initiatives, encouragements,
requests and so forth, that observing
the interaction between sequences and
mixtures is opening up a new door to
a completely fresh view of the
interrelations among the parts of the
world. The principles deducted from
models that employ such elements which
are distinguishable and concurrently
both contemporaneously and
sequentially labeled (as opposed to
all models known hereto, which each
use elements that are
indistinguishable and either
sequential or contemporary), these
principles are valid and actually at
work in Nature, on all echelles, from
the subatomar to the galactic .</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I include the abstract I submitted
to IS4SI, as part of the FIS track,
and hope that the colleagues will
participate in bringing recgnition to
the collaborative work that has gon on
in this FIS chatroom since 1997. The
abstract describes, in the form of a
general theory, large non-equilibrium
systems. By including that part of the
world, which is not the case, the
theory encompasses elephants and
non-elephants concurrently.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Karl<span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"></span></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<pre class="gmail-m_1629126591270395848gmail-m_-3611436872471830313gmail-m_8544060259583124931gmail-m_-1780053587904366494gmail-m_2168157932639419346moz-signature" cols="72">--
-------------------------------------------------
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
<a class="gmail-m_1629126591270395848gmail-m_-3611436872471830313gmail-m_8544060259583124931gmail-m_-1780053587904366494gmail-m_2168157932639419346moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" target="_blank">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>
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------------------------------------------------- </pre>
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<pre class="gmail-m_1629126591270395848gmail-m_-3611436872471830313gmail-m_8544060259583124931gmail-m_-1780053587904366494moz-signature" cols="72">--
-------------------------------------------------
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
<a class="gmail-m_1629126591270395848gmail-m_-3611436872471830313gmail-m_8544060259583124931gmail-m_-1780053587904366494moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" target="_blank">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>
<a class="gmail-m_1629126591270395848gmail-m_-3611436872471830313gmail-m_8544060259583124931gmail-m_-1780053587904366494moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/" target="_blank">http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/</a>
------------------------------------------------- </pre>
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</p>
<pre class="gmail-m_1629126591270395848gmail-m_-3611436872471830313gmail-m_8544060259583124931moz-signature" cols="72">--
-------------------------------------------------
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
<a class="gmail-m_1629126591270395848gmail-m_-3611436872471830313gmail-m_8544060259583124931moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" target="_blank">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>
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------------------------------------------------- </pre>
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</p>
<pre class="gmail-m_1629126591270395848gmail-m_-3611436872471830313moz-signature" cols="72">--
-------------------------------------------------
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
<a class="gmail-m_1629126591270395848gmail-m_-3611436872471830313moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" target="_blank">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>
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------------------------------------------------- </pre>
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