<div dir="ltr"> Greeting again, colleagues. I agree that when a sensory-motor loop that interacts with an environment is closed, anything can happen. This is along the lines of that neural closure I was mentioning in a previous comment I posted a few days ago.<div> But I am not sure I agree with conscious cells. I know some propose that even atoms or elementary particles are conscious, and with all due respect for their ideas, to me this is like asking whether a water molecule is gas, solid or liquid. One or two molecules of water don't make a phase, phases are "emergent" property of a large set of "waters". Hence I don't think one or two cells can display self-awareness/consciousness. I would admit that among the several features of consciousness, one single cell, or better yet, two connected neurons, may possess one: they process "information" in the sense of exchange of matter/energy between them and with the environment, but if we call that consciousness, even an extremely primordial consciousness, then as Pedro mentioned, we end up in panpsychism.</div><div><br></div><div> Regards</div><div>JL </div><div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Jan 31, 2019 at 1:24 PM Pedro C. Marijuan <<a href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" target="_blank">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div class="gmail-m_4879070233920180112gmail-m_-1969826322156194072moz-cite-prefix">Dear Bill and FIS colleagues,<br>
<br>
Nice comments. Although agreeing with the basic orientation, I
would change a few words. For instance, that "every cell has
self-referential consciousness" would make more sense, in my
opinion, with the term "intelligence." I remember that Lynn
Margulis also used the C- term applied to living cells, but it
conduces to a form of panpsychism that extends the problem and by
doing so pretends to solve it, but does not advance it a iota.
Consciousness has a special cellular-molecular underpinning that
continues defying the scientific efforts to decipher it. <br>
<br>
In response to Malcolm (offline), brain organoid research is a new
field that opens new possibilities--in brain development,
medically for some tumors, disorders such as epilepsy or autism,
etc. The most serious inconvenient (in words of Christof Koch) is
ethical: "The closest they get to preterm infant, the more they
should worry." The leading researcher A. Muotri, plans to connect
them to other brain/body parts organoids. Then, my speculation is
that if sensory inputs are provided, and some "action" external
connection is established (eg, via EEG sensors connected to
outside actuators), then a sui generis form of sensory-motor loop
could be closed, and... I really don't know. <br>
<br>
Best--Pedro<br>
<br>
<br>
El 29/01/2019 a las 22:13, Bill escribió:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div class="gmail-m_4879070233920180112gmail-m_-1969826322156194072moz-cite-prefix">Dear Pedro, <br>
</div>
<div class="gmail-m_4879070233920180112gmail-m_-1969826322156194072moz-cite-prefix">I have not previously contributed to
this thread, but thought that you and your terrific readership
might be interested in this article. <br>
</div>
<div class="gmail-m_4879070233920180112gmail-m_-1969826322156194072moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail-m_4879070233920180112gmail-m_-1969826322156194072moz-cite-prefix">
<div class="gmail-m_4879070233920180112gmail-m_-1969826322156194072gs_citr">Miller Jr, W.B., Torday, J.S.
and Baluška, F., 2018. Biological evolution as defense
of'self'. <i>Progress in biophysics and molecular biology</i>.</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail-m_4879070233920180112gmail-m_-1969826322156194072moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail-m_4879070233920180112gmail-m_-1969826322156194072moz-cite-prefix">Based within the conclusions defended
in that article, there should be no surprise about the
experimental findings you mention below. Every cell has
self-referential consciousness, within its basal limits, and
assesses and deploys information as communication to
problem-solve. Hence, the researchers are not close to a
pre-emergence of consciousness, since it exists as the
definition of life and they are experimenting with living cells.
In my opinion, the researchers nicely substantiate the arguments
within the above paper. The pre-emergence you mention below
would then be prior to its instantiation in the living cell,
which would be somewhere along the trajectory of the molecular
attachment to information space-time that changes physical data
to biological information. <br>
</div>
<div class="gmail-m_4879070233920180112gmail-m_-1969826322156194072moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail-m_4879070233920180112gmail-m_-1969826322156194072moz-cite-prefix">Best regards, <br>
</div>
<div class="gmail-m_4879070233920180112gmail-m_-1969826322156194072moz-cite-prefix">Bill <br>
</div>
<div class="gmail-m_4879070233920180112gmail-m_-1969826322156194072moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail-m_4879070233920180112gmail-m_-1969826322156194072moz-cite-prefix">On 1/29/2019 11:28 AM, Pedro C.
Marijuan wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div class="gmail-m_4879070233920180112gmail-m_-1969826322156194072moz-cite-prefix">Dear FIS Colleagues,<br>
<br>
An interesting twist on what could be the minimal requirements
for consciousness has recently arisen (Nature News, 15 Nov.
2018). Lab-grown mini-brains, or better, brain organoids
obtained from stem cells and coaxed to form cortical tissue,
show amazing properties of structure, connectivity, and
synchronicity of their neural discharges. Up to the point that
ethical questions have been raised. The neural types, the
genes expressed, and the "EEG records" are surprisingly
similar to those seen in real human brains of preterm babies.
The organoids themselves have been in culture for 10 months.
How close could they be to a primary form or say to a
pre-emergence of consciousness? Although grown for medical
purposes, if these organoids, or more complex ones, are hooked
to organoid forms of sensory organs (eye, hear) what would
happen? Would these sensory organoids open real windows to
these mini-brains towards the external world? Could they be
sort of an instantiation of Putnam's "brain in a bat"? Too
many questions one can formulate...<br>
<br>
Best--Pedro<br>
<br>
<br>
El 22/01/2019 a las 13:25, GUEVARA ERRA RAMON MARIANO
escribió:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Dear colleagues,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I have some comments on the question by Krassimir. In
our paper we talked about consciousness but I think the
results can also be interpreted in a wider sense.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Indeed, with open or closed eyes, a person is not
more or less conscious than with closed eyes, also seems
to me. There is simply more sensory input with eyes
opened, and presumably more information processing. <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>So, going back to our paper, we measured the
information content in the brain network, and see that
in some states there is more information content than in
others. Now, if you are unconscious, in a medical sense,
say you fainted or you are in coma, the information
content is very low. But also if you switch off part of
the sensory input. In both cases what you measure is
information processing. <br>
</div>
<div>In other words, our measure is good at revealing the
amount of information processing in large scale brain
networks. Incidentally, it serves to contrast conscious
and unconscious states as consciousness is related to
information processing. But not only, it also serves to
contrast states with different sensory input, as in the
eyes opened/ eyes closed case, even when both seem to be
conscious states. <br>
</div>
<div>It would be interesting to see results from an
experiment where subjects have sensory deprivation.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regarding consciousness, I don't know of a method to
quantify it behaviorally. Actually, even the definition
is elusive. Without a behavioral quantification, all we
can do is to rely on an empirical, medical use of the
concept and say "this state is more conscious than that
state". <br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div>I agree with Karl , this question is very important,
weather something is alive or not, and is perhaps
related to the question of begin conscious or not. They
may be examples of "major evolutionary transitions"
(Maynard Smith and Szathmary). In this sense I have a
comment. There seems to be a believe in certain
communities that intelligence and /or consciousness
would appear as a result of the accumulation of
processing units, with networks of sufficient
complexity. So, an artificial intelligence could appear
if we have a very complex and large set of artificial
neurons (it could even be a simulation, it doesn't have
to be physical). I disagree with this optimism on
historical grounds. There was a similar wave of
optimism after the Miller - Urey experiment on the
origin of life, long time ago, and look where we are
now. As long as I know, a self-replicating artificial
cell cannot be created from inorganic molecules. I
think this is the case because, of the large amount of
possibilities that gives molecular combinations,
chemical reactions, etc, only a few can be qualified as
"alive". And the more the system is complex, the more
there are combinations. Is the selection of the correct
combinations that is difficult. One could say the same
about the brain, where in this case the units are
neurons. There is a nice argument in one of Penrose's
books about this. The cerebellum and the cerebral cortex
have the same order of magnitude neurons. However, we
don't tend to believe that the cerebellum is the
material basis of consciousness. <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best,</div>
<div>Ramon<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote"><br>
</div>
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