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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Dear Pedro and friends, <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"> I am not at all surprised
that there would be considerable resistance to the concept that
cells are conscious. When I first confronted the data about the
capacities of cells, I was as unsettled at the thought of cellular
consciousness as any of you. However, scientists must either
accept the data or overturn it. In this instance, experiments and
observations of cells confirm that they can assess information,
understand in their own way that it is ambiguous (i.e. they are
not living machines), can problem-solve, make contingent decisions
and engage in sophisticated risk assessment for the trading of
resources. I do believe that these are conscious actions, and
certainly it is a form of intelligence. Ameoba can solve mazes,
i.e. demonstrate sufficient memory and problem-solving ability to
do so. <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"> Two additional points, if I
may. First, although I would be the first to admit that accepting
that cells have basal consciousness undermines the romance of our
belief in our exceptionalism, It does offer a parsimonious means
of understanding the knotty issue of consciousness and ends the
artificial separation invoked by the idea of a 'hard' and 'easy'
problem. Surely, nothing in consciousness studies is easy. But, a
basal consciousness that is imbued within every one of our cells,
and then is subject to emergent augmentation in the holobionic
form which entails our actual living circumstances, makes
substantial sense. I would offer that, in this instance, the
simplest solution is the best, ...... a single epitomic
consciousness that is subject to augmentation and adjustment. This
can then be primarily considered to represent the enhanced ability
discriminate information and it full range of ambiguities that
links to further ability to withhold reaction to it that
information prior to its deployment into discrete action.
Importantly, studies of rules of logic and thinking still remain
essential, since we express our cellular aggregate consciousness
in its own idiosyncratic form which is highly complex and requires
in depth explanation. <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"> Secondly, and with great
respect, I do disagree with the thought that accepting cellular
consciousness carries any necessary relationship to panpsychism.
Of course, I have no actual idea how consciousness began. For my
own part, I do not find the arguments of panpsychism to be at all
appealing. <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"> However, as scientists, we
must accept what experimental data shows. Cells have certain
faculties that do indeed exist, .... and these comport with
consciousness. How this was instantiated in the cellular form
....... well, I really cannot say except to offer that it would
most likely have been an instantiation under the boundary
conditions of the cell as a derivative of thermodynamics that
simply exists as a state function. Thus, it is a second order
derivative of the physical universe, not arising from the Big Bang
Singularity. <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"> What matters to me most, as
an evolutionary biologist, is not the explicit origin of
consciousness, but the fact that once it is appropriately weighed
as existing in the cellular form, then an entirely coherent
evolutionary narrative emerges which changes evolutionary biology
from being natural selection dependent to a narrative of the
cellular measurement of information to seek its own preservation
in preferred homeostatic equipoise. <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"> If I might offer, ..... the
origin of consciousness might be most likely found through
researching the exact means by which an organism attaches to
information space-time, which reduces then, to studying the origin
of life, at least in my own terms. <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"> Lastly, it is a privilege
to be allowed to participate in the debate. Many thanks. </div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Best regards, <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Bill <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/31/2019 11:19 AM, Karl Javorszky
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CA+nf4CW-nnpETFFz1qv=jA2t3MzF=d6X3uGjnKP5XV7DqEaiQw@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Hi folks,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>in one of the comments there was a reference to some
studies that suggest that space characteristics can change and
thus influence concatenation among materials. This idea is
very much supported by the numbers. Since the discussion has
moved forward on the distinction between conscious or not, the
supportive statement is somewhat late, but is supportive
nevertheless.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>As to conscious or subconscious: <br>
</div>
<div>this is a switch the button of which is is in the office
and the valves are in the basement. It is irrelevant, whether
the subject says that he has pushed the button or ineed does
push the button, but the vlve is not moving. What we have to
concentrate on is the state of the valve (restricting or
allowing circulation). If a valve is closed all times, the
problem is not that it is subconscious but rather that it is
closed. One would want to deal with a case of inhibition, if
action is requested. The technical term for the distinction
would be synton -dyston. Synton are symptoms which the subject
acknowledges to possess and identifies with (I maintain
discipline in my family as I see fit) or says is alien to him
(I don't know why but I always yell at the brat and feel
remorse afterwards) /This example would be with valve too much
open./</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In the context of FIS:</div>
<div>We all know that fundamental rules of thinking are
logically true and delineate that what is reasonable from that
what is a nonsense. In whatever measure we think ourselves
freethinkers and innovative, it simply will not work if we do
not open the valve which enables one to think differently. If
no flying fish can exist, it is not reasonable to look at
documentaries about fauna of the Amazonas where such things
are shown. Please consider the following table (hope it comes
across readable).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<table class="gmail-MsoTableGrid"
style="border-collapse:collapse;border:medium none"
cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="1">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td colspan="3" style="width:464.4pt;border:medium
none;padding:0cm 5.4pt" width="619" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-align:center;margin:0cm 0cm
8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"
align="center"><b><span
style="font-size:16pt;line-height:107%">Placing
the Subject<span></span></span></b></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="width:154.8pt;border:medium none;padding:0cm
5.4pt" width="206" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm
8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><b><span
style="font-size:14pt;line-height:107%">Concept<span></span></span></b></p>
</td>
<td style="width:154.8pt;border:medium none;padding:0cm
5.4pt" width="206" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-align:center;margin:0cm 0cm
8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"
align="center"><b><span
style="font-size:14pt;line-height:107%">Traditional<span></span></span></b></p>
</td>
<td style="width:154.8pt;border:medium none;padding:0cm
5.4pt" width="206" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-align:center;margin:0cm 0cm
8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"
align="center"><b><span
style="font-size:14pt;line-height:107%">New<span></span></span></b></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="width:154.8pt;border:medium none;padding:0cm
5.4pt" width="206" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm
8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><b>Units<span></span></b></p>
</td>
<td style="width:154.8pt;border:medium none;padding:0cm
5.4pt" width="206" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-align:center;margin:0cm 0cm
8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"
align="center">all alike<span></span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:154.8pt;border:medium none;padding:0cm
5.4pt" width="206" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-align:center;margin:0cm 0cm
8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"
align="center">all different<span></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="width:154.8pt;border:medium none;padding:0cm
5.4pt" width="206" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm
8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><b><span> </span></b></p>
</td>
<td style="width:154.8pt;border-color:currentcolor
currentcolor windowtext;border-style:none none
solid;border-width:medium medium 1pt;padding:0cm
5.4pt" width="206" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-align:center;margin:0cm 0cm
8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"
align="center">O O O O O O O<span></span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:154.8pt;border:medium none;padding:0cm
5.4pt" width="206" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-align:center;margin:0cm 0cm
8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"
align="center"><span>ϗ Ϙ ϼ ж ѭ ԉ </span><span></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="width:154.8pt;border-color:currentcolor
windowtext currentcolor currentcolor;border-style:none
solid none none;border-width:medium 1pt medium
medium;padding:0cm 5.4pt" width="206" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm
8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><b>distinguishable<span></span></b></p>
</td>
<td style="width:154.8pt;border-color:currentcolor
windowtext currentcolor currentcolor;border-style:none
solid none none;border-width:medium 1pt medium
medium;padding:0cm 5.4pt" width="206" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-align:center;margin:0cm 0cm
8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"
align="center">no<span></span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:154.8pt;border:medium none;padding:0cm
5.4pt" width="206" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-align:center;margin:0cm 0cm
8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"
align="center">yes<span></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="width:154.8pt;border-color:currentcolor
windowtext currentcolor currentcolor;border-style:none
solid none none;border-width:medium 1pt medium
medium;padding:0cm 5.4pt" width="206" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm
8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><b>Sorting
makes sense<span></span></b></p>
</td>
<td style="width:154.8pt;border-color:currentcolor
windowtext currentcolor currentcolor;border-style:none
solid none none;border-width:medium 1pt medium
medium;padding:0cm 5.4pt" width="206" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-align:center;margin:0cm 0cm
8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"
align="center">no<span></span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:154.8pt;border:medium none;padding:0cm
5.4pt" width="206" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-align:center;margin:0cm 0cm
8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"
align="center">yes<span></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="width:154.8pt;border-color:currentcolor
windowtext currentcolor currentcolor;border-style:none
solid none none;border-width:medium 1pt medium
medium;padding:0cm 5.4pt" width="206" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm
8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><b>Different
sequences can be seen<span></span></b></p>
</td>
<td style="width:154.8pt;border-color:currentcolor
windowtext currentcolor currentcolor;border-style:none
solid none none;border-width:medium 1pt medium
medium;padding:0cm 5.4pt" width="206" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-align:center;margin:0cm 0cm
8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"
align="center">no<span></span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:154.8pt;border:medium none;padding:0cm
5.4pt" width="206" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-align:center;margin:0cm 0cm
8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"
align="center">yes<span></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="width:154.8pt;border-color:currentcolor
windowtext currentcolor currentcolor;border-style:none
solid none none;border-width:medium 1pt medium
medium;padding:0cm 5.4pt" width="206" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm
8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><b>Ideas
about sequences reasonable<span></span></b></p>
</td>
<td style="width:154.8pt;border-color:currentcolor
windowtext currentcolor currentcolor;border-style:none
solid none none;border-width:medium 1pt medium
medium;padding:0cm 5.4pt" width="206" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-align:center;margin:0cm 0cm
8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"
align="center">no, because there is nothing to talk
about<span></span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:154.8pt;border:medium none;padding:0cm
5.4pt" width="206" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-align:center;margin:0cm 0cm
8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"
align="center">yes<span></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="width:154.8pt;border-color:currentcolor
windowtext currentcolor currentcolor;border-style:none
solid none none;border-width:medium 1pt medium
medium;padding:0cm 5.4pt" width="206" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm
8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><b>Ideas
about different sequences reasonable<span></span></b></p>
</td>
<td style="width:154.8pt;border-color:currentcolor
windowtext currentcolor currentcolor;border-style:none
solid none none;border-width:medium 1pt medium
medium;padding:0cm 5.4pt" width="206" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-align:center;margin:0cm 0cm
8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"
align="center">no, because sequences are all alike<span></span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:154.8pt;border:medium none;padding:0cm
5.4pt" width="206" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-align:center;margin:0cm 0cm
8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"
align="center">yes<span></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="width:154.8pt;border-color:currentcolor
windowtext currentcolor currentcolor;border-style:none
solid none none;border-width:medium 1pt medium
medium;padding:0cm 5.4pt" width="206" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm
8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><b>Algorithm
of resequencing worth thinking about<span></span></b></p>
</td>
<td style="width:154.8pt;border-color:currentcolor
windowtext currentcolor currentcolor;border-style:none
solid none none;border-width:medium 1pt medium
medium;padding:0cm 5.4pt" width="206" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-align:center;margin:0cm 0cm
8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"
align="center">no different sequences, so no
resequencing thinkable<span></span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:154.8pt;border-color:currentcolor
currentcolor windowtext;border-style:none none
solid;border-width:medium medium 2.25pt;padding:0cm
5.4pt" width="206" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-align:center;margin:0cm 0cm
8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"
align="center">very much so<span></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="width:154.8pt;border-color:currentcolor
windowtext currentcolor currentcolor;border-style:none
solid none none;border-width:medium 1pt medium
medium;padding:0cm 5.4pt" width="206" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm
8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><b>Anything
to see?<span></span></b></p>
</td>
<td style="width:154.8pt;border-color:currentcolor
windowtext windowtext currentcolor;border-style:none
solid solid none;border-width:medium 2.25pt 1pt
medium;padding:0cm 5.4pt" width="206" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-align:center;margin:0cm 0cm
8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"
align="center">no<span></span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:154.8pt;border-color:currentcolor
windowtext windowtext currentcolor;border-style:none
solid solid none;border-width:medium 2.25pt 2.25pt
medium;padding:0cm 5.4pt" width="206" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="text-align:center;margin:0cm 0cm
8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"
align="center">oh, what a spectacle<span></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm
8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><span> </span></p>
</div>
<div>Please consider that all logical statements about elements
of a set deal with mental concepts that are different to each
other. Once we understand the subject is outside the
traditional edifice of thinking, we can willingly learn to
un-inhibit the taboos about dealing with such things that are
different. In that segment is the stuff information is made of
to be found.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Karl <br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Am Do., 31. Jan. 2019 um
13:59 Uhr schrieb jose luis perez velazquez <<a
href="mailto:jlpvjlpv@gmail.com" moz-do-not-send="true">jlpvjlpv@gmail.com</a>>:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr"> Greeting again, colleagues. I agree that
when a sensory-motor loop that interacts with an environment
is closed, anything can happen. This is along the lines of
that neural closure I was mentioning in a previous comment I
posted a few days ago.
<div> But I am not sure I agree with conscious cells. I
know some propose that even atoms or elementary particles
are conscious, and with all due respect for their ideas,
to me this is like asking whether a water molecule is gas,
solid or liquid. One or two molecules of water don't make
a phase, phases are "emergent" property of a large set of
"waters". Hence I don't think one or two cells can
display self-awareness/consciousness. I would admit that
among the several features of consciousness, one single
cell, or better yet, two connected neurons, may possess
one: they process "information" in the sense of exchange
of matter/energy between them and with the environment,
but if we call that consciousness, even an extremely
primordial consciousness, then as Pedro mentioned, we end
up in panpsychism.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div> Regards</div>
<div>JL </div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Jan 31, 2019 at
1:24 PM Pedro C. Marijuan <<a
href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div
class="gmail-m_-3050146197459198583gmail-m_4879070233920180112gmail-m_-1969826322156194072moz-cite-prefix">Dear
Bill and FIS colleagues,<br>
<br>
Nice comments. Although agreeing with the basic
orientation, I would change a few words. For instance,
that "every cell has self-referential consciousness"
would make more sense, in my opinion, with the term
"intelligence." I remember that Lynn Margulis also
used the C- term applied to living cells, but it
conduces to a form of panpsychism that extends the
problem and by doing so pretends to solve it, but does
not advance it a iota. Consciousness has a special
cellular-molecular underpinning that continues defying
the scientific efforts to decipher it. <br>
<br>
In response to Malcolm (offline), brain organoid
research is a new field that opens new
possibilities--in brain development, medically for
some tumors, disorders such as epilepsy or autism,
etc. The most serious inconvenient (in words of
Christof Koch) is ethical: "The closest they get to
preterm infant, the more they should worry." The
leading researcher A. Muotri, plans to connect them to
other brain/body parts organoids. Then, my speculation
is that if sensory inputs are provided, and some
"action" external connection is established (eg, via
EEG sensors connected to outside actuators), then a
sui generis form of sensory-motor loop could be
closed, and... I really don't know. <br>
<br>
Best--Pedro<br>
<br>
<br>
El 29/01/2019 a las 22:13, Bill escribió:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div
class="gmail-m_-3050146197459198583gmail-m_4879070233920180112gmail-m_-1969826322156194072moz-cite-prefix">Dear
Pedro, <br>
</div>
<div
class="gmail-m_-3050146197459198583gmail-m_4879070233920180112gmail-m_-1969826322156194072moz-cite-prefix">I
have not previously contributed to this thread, but
thought that you and your terrific readership might
be interested in this article. <br>
</div>
<div
class="gmail-m_-3050146197459198583gmail-m_4879070233920180112gmail-m_-1969826322156194072moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div
class="gmail-m_-3050146197459198583gmail-m_4879070233920180112gmail-m_-1969826322156194072moz-cite-prefix">
<div
class="gmail-m_-3050146197459198583gmail-m_4879070233920180112gmail-m_-1969826322156194072gs_citr">Miller
Jr, W.B., Torday, J.S. and Baluška, F., 2018.
Biological evolution as defense of'self'. <i>Progress
in biophysics and molecular biology</i>.</div>
</div>
<div
class="gmail-m_-3050146197459198583gmail-m_4879070233920180112gmail-m_-1969826322156194072moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div
class="gmail-m_-3050146197459198583gmail-m_4879070233920180112gmail-m_-1969826322156194072moz-cite-prefix">Based
within the conclusions defended in that article,
there should be no surprise about the experimental
findings you mention below. Every cell has
self-referential consciousness, within its basal
limits, and assesses and deploys information as
communication to problem-solve. Hence, the
researchers are not close to a pre-emergence of
consciousness, since it exists as the definition of
life and they are experimenting with living cells.
In my opinion, the researchers nicely substantiate
the arguments within the above paper. The
pre-emergence you mention below would then be prior
to its instantiation in the living cell, which would
be somewhere along the trajectory of the molecular
attachment to information space-time that changes
physical data to biological information. <br>
</div>
<div
class="gmail-m_-3050146197459198583gmail-m_4879070233920180112gmail-m_-1969826322156194072moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div
class="gmail-m_-3050146197459198583gmail-m_4879070233920180112gmail-m_-1969826322156194072moz-cite-prefix">Best
regards, <br>
</div>
<div
class="gmail-m_-3050146197459198583gmail-m_4879070233920180112gmail-m_-1969826322156194072moz-cite-prefix">Bill
<br>
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<div
class="gmail-m_-3050146197459198583gmail-m_4879070233920180112gmail-m_-1969826322156194072moz-cite-prefix"><br>
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<div
class="gmail-m_-3050146197459198583gmail-m_4879070233920180112gmail-m_-1969826322156194072moz-cite-prefix">On
1/29/2019 11:28 AM, Pedro C. Marijuan wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div
class="gmail-m_-3050146197459198583gmail-m_4879070233920180112gmail-m_-1969826322156194072moz-cite-prefix">Dear
FIS Colleagues,<br>
<br>
An interesting twist on what could be the minimal
requirements for consciousness has recently arisen
(Nature News, 15 Nov. 2018). Lab-grown
mini-brains, or better, brain organoids obtained
from stem cells and coaxed to form cortical
tissue, show amazing properties of structure,
connectivity, and synchronicity of their neural
discharges. Up to the point that ethical questions
have been raised. The neural types, the genes
expressed, and the "EEG records" are surprisingly
similar to those seen in real human brains of
preterm babies. The organoids themselves have been
in culture for 10 months. How close could they be
to a primary form or say to a pre-emergence of
consciousness? Although grown for medical
purposes, if these organoids, or more complex
ones, are hooked to organoid forms of sensory
organs (eye, hear) what would happen? Would these
sensory organoids open real windows to these
mini-brains towards the external world? Could they
be sort of an instantiation of Putnam's "brain in
a bat"? Too many questions one can formulate...<br>
<br>
Best--Pedro<br>
<br>
<br>
El 22/01/2019 a las 13:25, GUEVARA ERRA RAMON
MARIANO escribió:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Dear colleagues,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I have some comments on the question by
Krassimir. In our paper we talked about
consciousness but I think the results can
also be interpreted in a wider sense.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Indeed, with open or closed eyes, a
person is not more or less conscious than
with closed eyes, also seems to me. There is
simply more sensory input with eyes opened,
and presumably more information processing.
<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>So, going back to our paper, we measured
the information content in the brain
network, and see that in some states there
is more information content than in others.
Now, if you are unconscious, in a medical
sense, say you fainted or you are in coma,
the information content is very low. But
also if you switch off part of the sensory
input. In both cases what you measure is
information processing. <br>
</div>
<div>In other words, our measure is good at
revealing the amount of information
processing in large scale brain networks.
Incidentally, it serves to contrast
conscious and unconscious states as
consciousness is related to information
processing. But not only, it also serves to
contrast states with different sensory
input, as in the eyes opened/ eyes closed
case, even when both seem to be conscious
states. <br>
</div>
<div>It would be interesting to see results
from an experiment where subjects have
sensory deprivation.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regarding consciousness, I don't know of
a method to quantify it behaviorally.
Actually, even the definition is elusive.
Without a behavioral quantification, all we
can do is to rely on an empirical, medical
use of the concept and say "this state is
more conscious than that state". <br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div>I agree with Karl , this question is very
important, weather something is alive or
not, and is perhaps related to the question
of begin conscious or not. They may be
examples of "major evolutionary transitions"
(Maynard Smith and Szathmary). In this sense
I have a comment. There seems to be a
believe in certain communities that
intelligence and /or consciousness would
appear as a result of the accumulation of
processing units, with networks of
sufficient complexity. So, an artificial
intelligence could appear if we have a very
complex and large set of artificial neurons
(it could even be a simulation, it doesn't
have to be physical). I disagree with this
optimism on historical grounds. There was a
similar wave of optimism after the Miller -
Urey experiment on the origin of life, long
time ago, and look where we are now. As long
as I know, a self-replicating artificial
cell cannot be created from inorganic
molecules. I think this is the case
because, of the large amount of
possibilities that gives molecular
combinations, chemical reactions, etc, only
a few can be qualified as "alive". And the
more the system is complex, the more there
are combinations. Is the selection of the
correct combinations that is difficult. One
could say the same about the brain, where in
this case the units are neurons. There is a
nice argument in one of Penrose's books
about this. The cerebellum and the cerebral
cortex have the same order of magnitude
neurons. However, we don't tend to believe
that the cerebellum is the material basis of
consciousness. <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best,</div>
<div>Ramon<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
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<pre class="gmail-m_-3050146197459198583gmail-m_4879070233920180112gmail-m_-1969826322156194072moz-signature" cols="72">--
-------------------------------------------------
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
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