<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">Dear Francesco and All,<div><br></div><div>let me tell you that I do really love your posts in Italian. By coincidence they correspond to the topic we are discussing now - narratives - and I must tell you that I find them lovely, clear and sound like mathematical theorems, despite my superficial (tourist) knowledge of the language that will not let me hungry and wthout bed in your native country. They are so beautiful, like readig poetry, and often remind me of my first and only book in Italian by Carlo Collodi "The Adventures of Pinocchio". Thank you for educating us on these issues in your language that proves that even if I do not know every single word, there is an underlying foundation in the composition of sentences beyond the grammar and the often familiar relation between the concepts that lets me understand the overall meaning. This subtle basis for communication possibly emerging out of the local frame of exchange and trade in the ancient era, but certainly also with the domination of Latin during the times of the Roman Empire and later wth Christianity, is a good example of how languages develop in parallel like living things exchanging parts of their "DNA". As a schoolboy I was amazed of my discoveries that many of the basic words lke "forno", "manga", "porta", "casa", etc., plenty of grammar rules and phrases, even proverbs, in my native language, Bulgarian, have the same roots and sound similarly as those in yours. It was clear, that many more words were adopted from the neighbour countries, but this astonishing remote relation have been fascinating to me and let me easily catch concepts without knowing in detail other Romance languages like French and Spanish. Later in life I got used to German and English which became my colloquial languages and I began discovering subtle relations between them and the other European languages. It is clear to us all how languages spread and became popular in the world during the era of the great geographic discoveries, and later with the development of science and technology, philosophy, fine art and trade, and certainly with movies and pop music, IT and most recently with facebook and instagram. I am not a specialist, but I am sure there is a similar foundational relation between the languages in Asia that must have been influencing each other in Asia, while being dominated, also for historical and religious reasons, by the two great cultures of China and India, although I know they are truly composed of many, oftten not related at all, dialects. I am curious to learn more about the subtle dependencies between the languages and cultures in Asia, as well as more about the agent role of the Arabic culture in the exchange between Asia and Europe. Francesco would probably say that Marco Polo was the first who did it ;-) Anyway, what I am asking is: were the ancient hunting stories told around the fire in the cave, the Greek legends and myths, the 1001 nights fairy tales, or those of the Grimm brothers, Charles Perraut, Hans Christian Andersen, Lewis Carroll, J.R.R. Tolkien, R. Kipling and others, (incl. Pinocchio of course!) that shaped the first blueprints in the minds of our ancestors and contemporaries? I think that long before there were conquests and trade, stories/narratives were crossing mountains and riverrs, sometimes told to the host family by strangers and tramps in a foreign language, but still conveyed-understood by the listener as communicated emotions with an unspoken language of feelings and sounds. How many of these stories, legends and myths were re-discovered by adventurers and scientists visiting remote places in Polynesia, Africa and South America? Did they emerge locally or were they spread by sailors and missioners? An old man in Bali living in a mountain cottage without electricity known as a sage from one of the last tribes who talks with the forest ghosts told me in his own native language which was not Balinesian that he knows the story of Alexander of Macedonia some years ago when I was on a journey there. Where did he know this story from? It certainly does not belong to the local folklore and he did not get it recently from the Discovery channel. And how did he found the proper way to tell me this? But stories can travel between the minds. This re-minds me of the intuitive ability of Australian aborigenes to know without seeing somethng. There may have been a Dream Time long time ago that have crated the subtle web of mind exchange between all human bengs, and who knows, perhaps all living beings. Modern science is solely dis-covering what we have been knowing all the time; it is recorded in our DNA. </div><div> </div><div>I'll leave you with this tale adding to you all my best wishes for the season of the family. FIS is a kind of family, isn't it?</div><div>I love your stories. </div><div> </div><div>All the best,</div><div><br></div><div>Plamen</div><div><br></div><div><div><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><font face="georgia, serif">___ ___ ___<br><br>Dr. Plamen L. Simeonov </font></div><div><font face="georgia, serif"><a href="http://simeio.org" target="_blank">simeio.org</a> | <a href="http://ibiomath.org" target="_blank"> ibiomath.org</a> | <a href="http://irianc.org" target="_blank">irianc.org</a> | <a href="http://inbiosa.eu" target="_blank">inbiosa.eu</a></font></div><div dir="ltr">___________________________________________________________<br></div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><span style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><font face="georgia, serif"><a href="https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0303264717302204" target="_blank">2017 Towards a First Implementation of the WLIMES Approach in Living System Studies Advancing the Diagnostics and Therapy in Personalized Medicine</a></font></span></div></div><div dir="ltr"><p><span lang="EN-US"><font face="georgia, serif"><a href="http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/journal/00796107/131" target="_blank">2017 JPBMB Focused Issue on Integral Biomathics: The Necessary Conjunction of Western and Eastern Thought Traditions for Exploring the Nature of Mind and Life</a></font></span><font face="georgia, serif"> </font></p></div></div><div><div>____________________________________________________________</div></div><div><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 6:31 AM Francesco Rizzo <<a href="mailto:13francesco.rizzo@gmail.com">13francesco.rizzo@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Cari Pedro, Joseph e Tutti,<div>mi permetto, se possibile, di inviarvi qualche pagina del capitolo 23. LA NATURA LINGUISTICA E COMUNICATIVA DELL'ATTIVITA' ECONOMICA (1995) di "Valore e valutazioni. La scienza dell'economia o l'economia della scienza" (FrancoAngeli, Milano, 1999, pp. 559-561).che ritengo utile e funzionale al dibattito.</div><div><br></div><div>23.1 Accostarsi all'esperienza economica con una mentalità linguistica o dialogativa</div><div><br></div><div><span style="font-size:11pt;text-align:justify;font-family:Times,serif"> </span><span style="font-size:11pt;text-align:justify;font-family:Times,serif">L'economia
contemporanea è sempre più basata sui processi di trasinformazione (...). La "produzione" e il "consumo" appaiono
in misura crescente delle oper-</span><i style="font-size:11pt;text-align:justify;font-family:Times,serif">azioni</i><span style="font-size:11pt;text-align:justify;font-family:Times,serif">
aperte all'informazione e alla comunicazione, piuttosto che delle attività che
si limitano a trasformare, accumulare e usare risorse materiali. Nella società
post-moderna prendono il sopravvento gli aspetti immateriali o epifenomenici
dei processi economici modificandone la tecnologia in senso informatico. La
crescente dematerializzazione dell'economia rivela la natura (o cultura)
segnica o simbolica dei "fatti" economici in un contesto esistenziale
e cognitivo spiccatamente linguistico e monetario.</span><br></div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 1.55pt 0.0001pt 0cm;text-align:justify;font-size:11pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:Times,serif"> Allora è necessario accostarsi all'esperienza
economica con una nuova mentalità in quanto gli ordinamenti o gli organismi
sociali si originano e manifestano la loro plasticità o intelligenza
comportamentale negli accoppiamenti strutturali e nelle interazioni di dominio
linguistico. La coerenza e l'armonia nelle relazioni e nelle interazioni
ricorsive fra i componenti di un sistema sociale umano dipendono dai rapporti
strutturali ontogenetici di tipo co 2municativo associabili a espressioni e
termini semantici. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 1.55pt 0.0001pt 0cm;text-align:justify;font-size:11pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:Times,serif"> Il linguaggio consente a chi lo usa
di favorire la riflessione e irrobustire la coscienza personale e sociale.
Inoltre serve a descrivere l'ambiente comune agli organismi che interagiscono.
La descrizione delle descrizioni, il desiderio dei desideri, il rapporto dei
rapporti, sono le caratteristiche fondamentali del linguaggio che è
responsabile del ben-essere o del mal-essere degli uomini. Per questo motivo
gli uomini esistono ed operano (anche) economicamente nel linguaggio aperto e
capace di garantire loro un adattamento costante nel "dominio dei
significati". </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 1.55pt 0.0001pt 0cm;text-align:justify;font-size:11pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:Times,serif"> Il linguaggio economico è
indispensabile per descrivere, immaginare, mettere in relazione. Esso
influenza, fino a plasmarla, l'ontogenesi di ogni persona. Le parole sono
indispensabili per le inter-azioni economiche, come i beni economici in quanto
segni permettono l'accoppiamento strutturale interpersonale. Il linguaggio
economico non deve de-scrivere o rivelare una realtà esterna, ma serve per
realizzare quella conoscenza per comprendere la coordinazione comportamentale
senza la quale non potrebbero esistere ordinamenti sociali, economici,
giuridici, politici, etc. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 1.55pt 0.0001pt 0cm;text-align:justify;font-size:11pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:Times,serif;font-size:12pt"> </span><span style="font-family:Times,serif"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 1.55pt;text-align:justify;font-size:11pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:Times,serif">23. 2 Mercato come luogo di interazione narrativa dei segni economici</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 1.55pt 0.0001pt 0cm;text-align:justify;font-size:11pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:Times,serif"><br></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 1.55pt 0.0001pt 0cm;text-align:justify;font-size:11pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:Times,serif;font-size:11pt"> Le esperienze economiche
post-moderne, al pari delle poetiche più recenti, richiedono un particolare
impegno autonomo del consumatore o del fruitore il quale gradisce sempre di
meno le sequenze univoche e necessarie della produzione, dell'offerta e della
distribuzione dei beni, mentre dimostra di preferire beni o servizi aventi una
natura probabilistica, presupponente una certa ambiguità situazionale, che
stimola scelte operative o interpretative personali, cangianti, incerte, anche
a costo di essere o di apparire illusorie.</span><br></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 1.55pt 0.0001pt 0cm;text-align:justify;font-size:11pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:Times,serif"> Le immagini del mercato
costituiscono un luogo privilegiato della interazione narrativa dei segni
economici. Il sistema economico-simbolico è formato da un insieme di
"tratti" che ne consentono la lettura e l'interpretazione. È
necessario sfruttare la differenza, il mutamento e la rivoluzione dei sistemi
simbolici: invece di considerare la moneta segno del valore (dei beni
economici) bisogna ritenere i beni economici segni del valore (della moneta).
La scrittura, la narrazione, il racconto delle metafore o parabole economiche
creano un salto, una discontinuità, una caduta, un <i>vuoto di parola</i>, di significati, di conoscenza: un'inflazione di
valore o un valore inflazionato. Creano cioè una differenz-ialità, un
gradiente, un dis-livello che produce il con-<i>tratto</i>, lo s-<i>cambio</i>,
l'inter-<i>azione</i>: il cambio del tratto
dell'azione o della con-trattazione. Il bi-sogno di tutti è quello di conoscere
il linguaggio economico estraneo (o degli estranei) non per com-<i>prenderlo</i>, ma per rilevarne la
differenza. Differenza che non può essere mai annullata o cancellata dalla
superficiale socialità e talvolta volgare comunicazione del linguaggio
monetario che è intraducibile o induce al tradimento. L'irriducibile in-<i>differenza</i> del linguaggio monetario
rende l'attività economica un continuo fare o disfare il reale, sistematico e
patrimoniale mondo della "pulsione di accumulazione" e della
"prodigalità narcisistica".</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 1.55pt 0.0001pt 0cm;text-align:justify;font-size:11pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:Times,serif"> La lingua o la ricchezza
comunicativa individuale di cui siamo padroni è incapace di indovinare o
scoprire per intero il "romanzesco integrale" mondo dell'economia
della comunità sociale che contribuiamo a formare. Talvolta (ci) mancano, le
parole, le frasi, le concezioni e quindi ricorriamo alla diluizione,
all'annacquamento, all'«emorragia del soggetto in un linguaggio frazionato,
parcellizzato, diffratto sino al vuoto»</span><a href="#m_-2560145319737901896_m_-8534848663525701738__ftn1" name="m_-2560145319737901896_m_-8534848663525701738__ftnref1" title=""><span class="m_-2560145319737901896m_-8534848663525701738gmail-MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Times,serif"><span class="m_-2560145319737901896m_-8534848663525701738gmail-MsoFootnoteReference"><span style="font-size:8pt">[1]</span></span></span></span></a><span style="font-family:Times,serif">. Il
linguaggio economico non deve affannarsi, come fanno molte lingue occidentali,
a decretare la "vita" e la "realtà" degli eventi o dei
soggetti economici, ma deve, come fanno alcune lingue orientali, ricondurre o
trattenere questi eventi o soggetti economici nella loro qualità di
"prodotti", di funzioni, "recisi" dalla credenza
referenziale per antonomasia, quella cioè delle cose o degli esseri che vivono.
Non possiamo conoscere e con-<i>testare</i>
la nostra società (economica) usando il linguaggio aberrante o l'ideologia terrificante
della cultura o mentalità scientista che spazza via o cancella proprio la
creatività o l'inventiva degli uomini. Il nostro parlare (economico) è un non
vivere, un far morire la nostra <i>vita</i>-lità,
la nostra capacità di stupirci, sorprenderci, incontrarci, amarci gli uni con
gli altri.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 1.55pt 0.0001pt 0cm;text-align:justify;font-size:11pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:Times,serif"> Per far soprav-v<i>ivere</i> l'economia bisogna ri-significarla ri-situandola nel luogo
creativo del linguaggio simbolico-metaforico per assicurarle il bi-<i>sogno</i> vitale della comunicazione. E non
c'è comunicazione che nella parola, "immagine acustica" che rap-<i>presenta</i> meglio di qualsiasi simbolo il
valore delle cose o le cose del valore, senza alcuna referenzialità esterna o
antecedente ad essa. Il valore (economico) trova in se stesso la
giustificazione e si tra-<i>manda</i> e si
tras-<i>mette</i> nel tempo mediante un
ininterrotto processo di autoreferenzialità.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 1.55pt 0.0001pt 0cm;text-align:justify;font-size:11pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:Times,serif"><br></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 1.55pt;text-align:justify;font-size:11pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:Times,serif">Grazie. Francesco.</span></p>
<div><br clear="all">
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<div id="m_-2560145319737901896m_-8534848663525701738gmail-ftn1">
<p class="m_-2560145319737901896m_-8534848663525701738gmail-MsoFootnoteText" style="margin:0cm 0.55pt 0.0001pt 0cm;text-align:justify;font-size:10pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><a href="#m_-2560145319737901896_m_-8534848663525701738__ftnref1" name="m_-2560145319737901896_m_-8534848663525701738__ftn1" title=""><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Times,serif"><span style="font-size:9pt">[1]</span></span></a><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Times,serif"> Barthes R., <i>L'impero dei segni</i>, Torino, Einaudi, 1984, p. 12. </span></p>
</div>
</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">Il giorno mar 4 dic 2018 alle ore 12:41 Joseph Brenner <<a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" target="_blank">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>> ha scritto:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:navy">Dear Xueshan,<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:navy"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:navy">Thank
you for your proposal of a domain of Infordomics. I see it as a way of
furthering the useful insights that can be gained thorough classification,
guidelines and protocols of discussion. I note that –domics and domain have
the same Greek root <i><span style="font-style:italic">‘domos’ –
</span></i>house or place, hence, the <u>place</u> for information.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:navy"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:navy">However,
I think that your proposed inclusion of Semiotics as Linguistics and as a major
stand-alone subject is problematic. This is in part due to the absence, in your
list, of an explicit reference to Meaning.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:navy"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:navy">Sören
has proposed as a subject, in another context, “Information, Meaning and
Semiotics”. For discussion here, I would have preferred Information,
Meaning, Semiosis and Semiotics. I see Semiosis both as meaning and as a dynamic
process of reasoning and of generating meaning. On the other hand, Semiotics is
rather a classificatory system applied to formal, structural aspects of
language. Of course, there is some overlap with meaning, but Semiotics as most
commonly used today suffers from its implied reference to and dependence on the
categories, logic and classifications of Peirce. It is necessary to remind
ourselves that the Peircean approach is only one among others, and that more
serious scientific and ontological commitments can be made in some of the
latter. <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:navy"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:navy">The
fact that Meaning in a sense in involved in all the fields you define (psychology,
communication, social information) does not mean that it is an unscientific
concept; it is that it, like information itself, requires some additional dynamic
dimensions for its description.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:navy"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:navy">Best
wishes,<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:navy"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:navy">Joseph<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font size="2" color="black" face="Tahoma"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:windowtext;font-weight:bold">From:</span></font></b><font size="2" color="black" face="Tahoma"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:windowtext"> Fis [mailto:<u></u>fis<u></u>-<a href="mailto:bounces@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">bounces@listas.unizar.es</a>]
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">On Behalf Of </span></b>Xueshan Yan<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> mardi, 4 décembre 2018 11:08<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> FIS Group<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Fis] Focusing on
Narratives</span></font><font color="black" face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman";color:windowtext"><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="black" face="宋体"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top:4.65pt"><font size="3" color="black" face="宋体"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">Dear Colleagues,<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top:12.0pt;text-indent:21.0pt"><font size="3" color="black" face="宋体"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">Thanks
Pedro for introducing the important topic of narrative, many views of Loet,
Joseph, Karl, of course Pedro, etc. are very profound.</span></font><font size="2" color="black"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.5pt;color:windowtext"><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top:4.65pt;text-indent:21.0pt"><font size="3" color="black" face="宋体"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">After
accomplished my first book to investigate various information and informational
disciplines, my second book, <i><span style="font-style:italic">Infordomics</span></i>,
will concentrate on discussing information issues in the Humanities and Social
Sciences, narrative will be its main concern. I have collected a dozen of books
about these aspects. Infordomics is a new discipline which I named. As far as
the current information concerned, technological information, biological
information, and social information are the three dominating types we have
seen. Technological information has been exclusively studied by technological
informatics (computer science, telecommunications science), biological
information has been exclusively studied by biology, and only social
information is a scattered topic in history, journalism, literature, art,
religion, anthropology, sociology, and others, we haven</span></font>’<span lang="EN-US">t a special discipline to deal with it so far. Therefore, I think
that achievements on information for us are most likely in this field.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top:4.65pt;text-indent:21.0pt"><font size="3" color="black" face="宋体"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">As
far as the information issues we are concerning, Psychology discusses the
processing of information, communication (Communicology) discusses the
transmission of information, Semiotics (Linguistics) discusses the form of
information, and Infordomics will discuss the remaining issues of information.
At the beginning, I may concentrate on its structure problems. Psychology,
Communicology, Semiotics (Linguistics), and Infordomics (other new disciplines
on information may emerge in the future certainly.) constitute a systematic
study about social/human information.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top:4.65pt;text-indent:21.0pt"><font size="3" color="black" face="宋体"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">However,
our FIS (including our IS4SI) is at a hard time now, and we need a firm and
promising guideline and protocol.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top:18.0pt"><font size="3" color="black" face="宋体"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">Best wishes,<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top:4.65pt"><font size="3" color="black" face="宋体"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">Xueshan<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="black" face="等线"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font size="2" color="black" face="Calibri"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:windowtext;font-weight:bold">From:</span></font></b><font size="2" color="black" face="Calibri"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:windowtext"> <u></u>fis<u></u>-<a href="mailto:bounces@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">bounces@listas.unizar.es</a>
<<u></u>fis<u></u>-<a href="mailto:bounces@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">bounces@listas.unizar.es</a>>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">On Behalf Of </span></b>Pedro C. Marijuan<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Friday, November 30, 2018
4:10 AM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> <u></u>fis<u></u>@<a href="http://listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">listas.unizar.es</a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> [Fis] Focusing on
Narratives<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="black" face="宋体"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="black" face="宋体"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">Dear FIS Colleagues,<br>
<br>
Some brief responses to Loet's and Jerry's comments.<br>
<br>
To Loet, unfortunately real life does not allow such neat scheme of
expectations, observations, and modifications/decisions--except in the
abstract. Daily life is surrounded by multitude of behavioral cycles and
happenstances from the subject himself and from the surrounding parties
impinging on the subject. It is difficult to isolate mainstreams there, and it
is difficult to know how to orient oneself for the troubled future. Besides,
important decisions are often irreversible, they mark the course of life and
there is no way to return to the initial conditions. How easily a promising
young life can be wasted... And this is the role of traditional great
stories/narratives: lecturing on how to realize the "potential" of
one's life, orienting on the big unknowns that particularly the young party
starting his/her social life has to confront. They orient, amuse, and
"entertain"--all in one. In our parlance, they are highly efficient <u>social
information tools</u> that contain important adaptive knowledge for flourishing
in some concrete culture. I do not see much interest in what physicalist
perspectives can say on that. Maybe I did not succeed with the terms, trying to
connect the social potential with the general biological potentiality, but this
was the gist.<br>
<br>
In any case, there was a statement in my previous message <i><span style="font-style:italic">"I do not consider unscientific the Jungian
stance, but not quite scientific either"</span></i> that in a second
thought consider inappropriate. Rather, Jung's work in this realm should be
taken as belonging to the Humanities. Just that. And to be fair he has provided
a strong way to analyze stories/narratives which has been adopted by some of
the most relevant commentators today (Booker, Bonnet). The further point, after
acknowledging that scholarly fact, is whether that perspective can be
improved... Probably. I already mentioned about the unconscious: that it could
be more accurate considering the brain-rest activation of contemporary
neuroscience (Default Mode Network) as taking charge of that involuntary
emergence of impressions and deep memories. There are now ambitious theoretical
schemes of neural information processing that could provide light on other
points of the conscious, the emotional, the sensorimotor, the
excitation/inhibition coupling, the optimization of neural entropy, etc. But
they have to connect with natural behavior, and also finally with narratives. <br>
<br>
To Jerry's, after his four pages on perplex number system, I can only say that
great, terrific. It could have been an interesting presentation for an ad hoc
discussion session. I am tempted to twist a few sentences of his text and to
intercalate four pages or so on signaling systems, or on the
"sociotype", which is closer to the current session. But that is not
the scholarly way of discussion.<br>
<br>
To finalize, there is a provocative sentence in Bonnet's closing of his book: <b><span style="font-weight:bold">"The one who tells the stories rules the
world."</span></b><br>
<br>
Best wishes<br>
--Pedro <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="black" face="宋体"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"><br>
El 25/11/2018 a las 5:10, <u></u>Loet Leydesdorff<u></u>
escribi</span></font>ó<span lang="EN-US">:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="black" face="宋体"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">Dear Pedro, Joseph, and colleagues, <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="black" face="宋体"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="black" face="宋体"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">Let me side with Joseph in this instance.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div id="m_-2560145319737901896m_-8534848663525701738m_2329778154064576414x24986aaac8ed49c">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><font size="3" color="black" face="宋体"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 8.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:2.25pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="black" face="宋体"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">memories? And, similarly, does not "potential"
refer to cognitive/anticipatory capabilities that somehow detect higher fitness
possibilities along some behavioral paths than others, and then conduce to the
long term realization and flourishing of a life cycle? The potential belongs,
say, to the "processual" not to the physical. In my view, the general
challenge is to re-explain narratives, the fundamental commodity of social
communication, in a more advanced conceptualization, beyond the Jungian, the
Shannonian, or the corrosive fake-correctedness of our times... It can be
done. The neuroscientific approach would be badly needed to recreate the
terminology and the fundamental ideas.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div id="m_-2560145319737901896m_-8534848663525701738m_2329778154064576414x24986aaac8ed49c">
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="black" face="宋体"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">Perhaps, I miss the meaning of some of the
wordings in this narrative :-), but it seems to me that there is something
terribly wrong here. "The potential belongs ... to the
"processual." We can consider this as "nom de gueux."<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div id="m_-2560145319737901896m_-8534848663525701738m_2329778154064576414x24986aaac8ed49c">
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="black" face="宋体"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div id="m_-2560145319737901896m_-8534848663525701738m_2329778154064576414x24986aaac8ed49c">
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="black" face="宋体"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">One always begins with the specification of
expectations. I assume that these are then "processual"? Expectations
(possible states) are tested against observations and can then sometimes be
rejected.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div id="m_-2560145319737901896m_-8534848663525701738m_2329778154064576414x24986aaac8ed49c">
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="black" face="宋体"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div id="m_-2560145319737901896m_-8534848663525701738m_2329778154064576414x24986aaac8ed49c">
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="black" face="宋体"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">For example: One can hypothesize that there
are gender differences on this list. Then, one can cross-table those of us who
on average publish 0, 1, or 2 postings with the gender differences (M/F). This
generates a 3 times 2 table. <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div id="m_-2560145319737901896m_-8534848663525701738m_2329778154064576414x24986aaac8ed49c">
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="black" face="宋体"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div id="m_-2560145319737901896m_-8534848663525701738m_2329778154064576414x24986aaac8ed49c">
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="black" face="宋体"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">Using the margin totals one can compute the
expected values of each cell and test the observed values against the
expectations. The expectations are "processual"? Indeed, they are
possibilities which do not have to be realized. That is an empirical question.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div id="m_-2560145319737901896m_-8534848663525701738m_2329778154064576414x24986aaac8ed49c">
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="black" face="宋体"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div id="m_-2560145319737901896m_-8534848663525701738m_2329778154064576414x24986aaac8ed49c">
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="black" face="宋体"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">Unfortunately, Logic-in-Reality works as a
logic with only two values (T/F). This may lead to a poor design when one needs
more grey shades.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div id="m_-2560145319737901896m_-8534848663525701738m_2329778154064576414x24986aaac8ed49c">
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="black" face="宋体"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div id="m_-2560145319737901896m_-8534848663525701738m_2329778154064576414x24986aaac8ed49c">
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="black" face="宋体"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">Best,<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div id="m_-2560145319737901896m_-8534848663525701738m_2329778154064576414x24986aaac8ed49c">
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="black" face="宋体"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">Loet.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="black" face="宋体"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div id="m_-2560145319737901896m_-8534848663525701738m_2329778154064576414x24986aaac8ed49c">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="black" face="宋体"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
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<div id="m_-2560145319737901896m_-8534848663525701738m_2329778154064576414x128ab7c5cf174b0">
<div style="margin-right:6.0pt" id="m_-2560145319737901896m_-8534848663525701738m_2329778154064576414x775eaf3ae7f6460082dcdda3faf877c6">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><font size="2" color="black" face="Tahoma"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Tahoma"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
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<div id="m_-2560145319737901896m_-8534848663525701738m_2329778154064576414x920d19d74fc84b0">
<div id="m_-2560145319737901896m_-8534848663525701738m_2329778154064576414x337b22579712426abf55c20f258d0a74">
<div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center;background:white"><font size="2" color="black" face="Calibri"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri">
<hr size="3" width="100%" align="center">
</span></font></div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><u></u><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1f497d">Loet Leydesdorff</span></font><u></u><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1f497d"> <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1f497d">Professor emeritus, <u></u><u></u>University<u></u>
of <u></u>Amsterdam<u></u><u></u><br>
<u></u><u></u>Amsterdam<u></u> <u></u>School<u></u><u></u> of Communication Research (ASCoR)<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><font size="2" color="#44546a" face="Calibri"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#44546a"><a href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net" title="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net" target="_blank"><font size="2"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">loet@leydesdorff.net
</span></font></a></span></font><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1f497d">; </span></font><font size="2" color="#44546a" face="Calibri"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#44546a"><a href="http://www.leydesdorff.net/" title="http://www.leydesdorff.net/" target="_blank"><font size="2"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">http://www.leydesdorff.net/</span></font></a></span></font><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1f497d"> <br>
</span></font><font size="1" face="Calibri"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Calibri">Associate Faculty, </span></font><font size="2" color="#44546a" face="Calibri"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#44546a"><a href="http://www.sussex.ac.uk/spru/" target="_blank"><font size="1"><span style="font-size:9.0pt">SPRU, </span></font></a></span></font><u></u><u></u><font size="1" face="Calibri"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Calibri">University</span></font><u></u><font size="1" face="Calibri"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Calibri">
of <u></u>Sussex<u></u></span></font><u></u><font size="1" face="Calibri"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Calibri">;
<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><font size="1" color="black" face="Calibri"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Calibri">Guest
Professor </span></font><font size="2" color="#44546a" face="Calibri"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#44546a"><a href="http://www.zju.edu.cn/english/" target="_blank"><font size="1"><span style="font-size:9.0pt">Zhejiang
Univ.</span></font></a></span></font><font size="1" face="Calibri"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Calibri">, <u></u>Hangzhou<u></u>;
Visiting Professor, </span></font><font size="2" color="#44546a" face="Calibri"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#44546a"><a href="http://www.istic.ac.cn/Eng/brief_en.html" target="_blank"><font size="1"><span style="font-size:9.0pt">ISTIC, </span></font></a></span></font><u></u><u></u><font size="1" face="Calibri"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Calibri">Beijing</span></font><u></u><u></u><font size="1" face="Calibri"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Calibri">;<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><font size="1" color="black" face="Calibri"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Calibri">Visiting
Fellow, </span></font><font size="2" color="#44546a" face="Calibri"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#44546a"><a href="http://www.bbk.ac.uk/" target="_blank"><font size="1"><span style="font-size:9.0pt">Birkbeck</span></font></a></span></font><font size="1" face="Calibri"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Calibri">,
<u></u><u></u>University<u></u> of <u></u>London<u></u><u></u>; <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><font size="1" color="#44546a" face="Calibri"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#44546a"><a href="http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en" target="_blank">http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en</a></span></font><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Tahoma"><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div id="m_-2560145319737901896m_-8534848663525701738m_2329778154064576414x337b22579712426abf55c20f258d0a74">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white"><font size="2" color="black" face="Tahoma"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Tahoma"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="black" face="宋体"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><font size="3" color="black" face="宋体"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 8.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:2.25pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="black" face="宋体"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"><br>
<br>
Best regards<br>
--Pedro <br>
<br>
El 21/11/2018 a las 9:31, Joseph Brenner escribi</span></font>ó<span lang="EN-US">:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 8.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:navy">Dear
Colleagues,</span></font><font face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman""><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:navy"> </span></font><font face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman""><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:navy">Pedro’s
approach, solidly anchored in biology, allows for progress in understanding.
Two comments on his ‘logic’: 1) I would not call the
‘concoction’ within which we live imaginary. It is rather a set of
real, dynamic mental processes, with actual and potential, effectively causal
components. 2) ‘Complex life’ instantiates potential (and kinetic)
energy not only in a ‘book keeping role’. Complex life is
constituted by actual and potential energy evolving in cycles and stages. Some
myths (Epimetheus and Prometheus) correctly express this duality and its
evolution.</span></font><font face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman""><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:navy"> </span></font><font face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman""><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:navy">Unfortunately,
there is another myth that I believe correctly models part of Jerry’s
proposals. It is that of Procrustes, an innkeeper who stretched or cut the legs
of his guests to make them fit the only available beds, until taken care of by
Heracles. You write: </span></font><font face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Times New Roman"">A lot more needs to be said
about the intimate nature of relations among scientific narratives before one
can bind the logic of the perplex number system to the grammars associated with
mathematically structured anticipatory systems.</span></font><font face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman""><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:navy"> </span></font><font face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman""><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:navy">This
sentence needs to be parsed, given the concatenation of terms: in my opinion,
the purpose of understanding the relations among scientific narratives is to
understand real anticipatory systems, whether or not mathematically structured.
Perplex numbers are artificial numerological constructions with a corresponding
logic that may or may not apply to other artificial constructions, such as
abstract anticipatory systems, without dynamics. Narratives about real science
could be applied in principle to such questions, but the implication must be
avoided that such application would tell us anything about reality. </span></font><font face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman""><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:navy"> </span></font><font face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman""><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:navy">I
cannot accept any manipulation of numbers as being more than <i><span style="font-style:italic">a posteriori. </span></i>This applies also to
Karl’s approach. Also, the concept of an ‘in-<i><span style="font-style:italic">formed</span></i>’ number is an oxymoron,
although I understand the attempt to ascribe
‘value-by-association’, so to speak. Numbers cannot accept
‘form’, or its meaning; they exist, eternally, outside the world of
form and change. </span></font><font face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman""><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:navy"> </span></font><font face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman""><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:navy">I
thus stress the importance of Pedro’s statement: processes do not
go </span></font><font face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Times New Roman"">smoothly upwards from the quantum level.</span></font><font size="2" color="navy" face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:navy"> As one proceeds to higher
levels of reality, there are discontinuities and different laws apply. One only
notes the presence of some isomorphisms, such as the failure of some macroscopic
process equations to commute or distribute. Finally, I, at least, will resist
any attempts to let in, through the back door, anti-scientific concepts of
quantum processes in mind and cognition.</span></font><font face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman""><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:navy"> </span></font><font face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman""><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:navy">Best
wishes,</span></font><font face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman""><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:navy"> </span></font><font face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman""><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:navy">Joseph</span></font><font face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman""><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center"><font size="3" color="black" face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:windowtext">
<hr size="3" width="100%" align="center">
</span></font></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font size="2" color="black" face="Tahoma"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:windowtext;font-weight:bold">From:</span></font></b><font size="2" color="black" face="Tahoma"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:windowtext"> Fis [<a href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es</a>]
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">On Behalf Of </span></b>Pedro C. Marijuan<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> mardi, 20 novembre 2018
21:15<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> <u></u>fis<u></u><br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Cc:</span></b> Jerry LR Chandler<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Fis] Anticipatory
Systems--"Potential"</span></font><font face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman""><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="black" face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman""> </span></font><font face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman""><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="black" face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"">Dear Jerry
and FIS colleagues,<br>
<br>
I wonder how big or how clever your Chemostat apparatus should be. There are
thousands of metabolic intermediates in an organism, and there are another
thousands of diversified signals. And we have in the order of 30 billion cells
(trillions in the <u></u><u></u>US<u></u><u></u>
system). Plus around 100 trillion of bacterial cells in the microbiome.
"We" are the emergence all of that molecular diversity. It does not
mean that life exactly "controls" all the details of the
mega-information of this whole system... How that control is organized, the
principles of biological information, so to speak, become another great
question, but probably very different from the idea of mass control in a
chemostat. </span></font><font face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Times New Roman"">In any case, the way you have argued it,
seemingly smoothly going upwards from the quantum level, is beyond of what I
consider feasible. </span></font><font face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman"">Scientific overstretching of a reasonable
paradigm perhaps.<br>
<br>
Socially, indeed, we do not try to communicate around by following a colossal
strategy of reducing happenstances to their quantum description; neither to the
kind of meta-languages you mention. In general, social communication revolves
around narratives. They are not free-wheeling constructions (at least referring
to the "great stories" of all epochs) but optimized tools to guide
individuals in the advancement of their lives, in the achievement of their
"potential". Looking at the historical evolution of those great
stories, they are teaching us about which were the cardinal aspects of common
life to be specifically grasped by the child, by the adolescent, by the maiden,
the artisan, the warrior, the priest... And in this social communication
endeavors, life cycles do not appear as homogeneous linearly "timed".
Human lives are continuously looking ahead, anticipating ("Prometheus"
style) but simultaneously looking at the past and pondering on it
("Epimetheus" style). Although "presentists", we live
within an imaginary concoction built of mosaic pasts and futures,
"multi-timed" so to speak. The way to harmonize past, present, and
future (vital information) is one of the leit motifs of those great stories.<br>
<br>
And about cycles, so many of them can be found. At the scale of the
organism: cellular & tissular cycles, metabolic cycles, behavioral
cycles, ultradian cycles, circadian cycles, seasonal cycles, yearly cycles,
secular cycles, and many others related to social mores. Some of them can be
arranged in a sort of hierarchy or inclusivity, but there is a fundamental
diversity. That most of this orchestration of cycles does not require a
conscious effort does not mean that we should ignore them concerning the roots
of social communication. The cycles and stages (and "passages")
within a life cycle have an ominous presence. As i was saying, the
"potential" of each young life in ascend requires the reception of
wisdom (via social communication narratives) to integrate the own individual
path within the social matrix of the time.<br>
<br>
Thinking twice about the "potential" of life, it might be something
important to consider regarding any form or manifestation of life. Perhaps
better than the Principle of Conatus from Spinoza I was referring days ago (the
effort to self-maintain and flourish). Complex life has "potential"
to advance along some multi-time, multi-cycle developmental path in the most
complex of all environments: the social matrix. Is there some deep similarity
of this potential with the role that "potential" energy plays in our
book-keeping of energy conservation?<br>
<br>
Thanking the comments,<br>
Best--Pedro<br>
<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">Pedro C. Marijuán<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
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<p><font size="3" color="black" face="宋体"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
<pre><font size="3" color="black" face="宋体"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">-- <u></u><u></u></span></font></pre><pre><font size="3" color="black" face="宋体"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">-------------------------------------------------<u></u><u></u></span></font></pre><pre><font size="3" color="black" face="宋体"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">Pedro C. Mariju</span></font>á<span lang="EN-US">n<u></u><u></u></span></pre><pre><font size="3" color="black" face="宋体"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">Grupo de Bioinformaci</span></font>ó<span lang="EN-US">n / Bioinformation Group<u></u><u></u></span></pre><pre><font size="3" color="black" face="宋体"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></pre><pre><font size="3" color="black" face="宋体"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"><a href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" target="_blank">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a><u></u><u></u></span></font></pre><pre><font size="3" color="black" face="宋体"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"><a href="http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/" target="_blank">http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/</a><u></u><u></u></span></font></pre><pre><font size="3" color="black" face="宋体"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">------------------------------------------------- <u></u><u></u></span></font></pre></div>
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