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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:navy'>Dear Xueshan,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span
lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:navy'>Thank
you for your proposal of a domain of Infordomics. I see it as a way of
furthering the useful insights that can be gained thorough classification,
guidelines and protocols of discussion. I note that –domics and domain have
the same Greek root <i><span style='font-style:italic'>‘domos’ –
</span></i>house or place, hence, the <u>place</u> for information.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span
lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span
lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:navy'>However,
I think that your proposed inclusion of Semiotics as Linguistics and as a major
stand-alone subject is problematic. This is in part due to the absence, in your
list, of an explicit reference to Meaning.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span
lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span
lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:navy'>Sören
has proposed as a subject, in another context, “Information, Meaning and
Semiotics”. For discussion here, I would have preferred Information,
Meaning, Semiosis and Semiotics. I see Semiosis both as meaning and as a dynamic
process of reasoning and of generating meaning. On the other hand, Semiotics is
rather a classificatory system applied to formal, structural aspects of
language. Of course, there is some overlap with meaning, but Semiotics as most
commonly used today suffers from its implied reference to and dependence on the
categories, logic and classifications of Peirce. It is necessary to remind
ourselves that the Peircean approach is only one among others, and that more
serious scientific and ontological commitments can be made in some of the
latter. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span
lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span
lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:navy'>The
fact that Meaning in a sense in involved in all the fields you define (psychology,
communication, social information) does not mean that it is an unscientific
concept; it is that it, like information itself, requires some additional dynamic
dimensions for its description.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span
lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span
lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:navy'>Best
wishes,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span
lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span
lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:navy'>Joseph<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
color=black face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";color:windowtext'>
<hr size=3 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:windowtext;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;color:windowtext'> Fis [mailto:<st1:PersonName w:st="on">fis</st1:PersonName>-bounces@listas.unizar.es]
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Xueshan Yan<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> mardi, 4 décembre 2018 11:08<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> FIS Group<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [Fis] Focusing on
Narratives</span></font><font color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Times New Roman";color:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=宋体><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-top:4.65pt'><font size=3 color=black face=宋体><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'>Dear Colleagues,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-top:12.0pt;text-indent:21.0pt'><font size=3
color=black face=宋体><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'>Thanks
Pedro for introducing the important topic of narrative, many views of Loet,
Joseph, Karl, of course Pedro, etc. are very profound.</span></font><font
size=2 color=black><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.5pt;color:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-top:4.65pt;text-indent:21.0pt'><font size=3
color=black face=宋体><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'>After
accomplished my first book to investigate various information and informational
disciplines, my second book, <i><span style='font-style:italic'>Infordomics</span></i>,
will concentrate on discussing information issues in the Humanities and Social
Sciences, narrative will be its main concern. I have collected a dozen of books
about these aspects. Infordomics is a new discipline which I named. As far as
the current information concerned, technological information, biological
information, and social information are the three dominating types we have
seen. Technological information has been exclusively studied by technological
informatics (computer science, telecommunications science), biological
information has been exclusively studied by biology, and only social
information is a scattered topic in history, journalism, literature, art,
religion, anthropology, sociology, and others, we haven</span></font>’<span
lang=EN-US>t a special discipline to deal with it so far. Therefore, I think
that achievements on information for us are most likely in this field.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-top:4.65pt;text-indent:21.0pt'><font size=3
color=black face=宋体><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'>As
far as the information issues we are concerning, Psychology discusses the
processing of information, communication (Communicology) discusses the
transmission of information, Semiotics (Linguistics) discusses the form of
information, and Infordomics will discuss the remaining issues of information.
At the beginning, I may concentrate on its structure problems. Psychology,
Communicology, Semiotics (Linguistics), and Infordomics (other new disciplines
on information may emerge in the future certainly.) constitute a systematic
study about social/human information.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-top:4.65pt;text-indent:21.0pt'><font size=3
color=black face=宋体><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'>However,
our FIS (including our IS4SI) is at a hard time now, and we need a firm and
promising guideline and protocol.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-top:18.0pt'><font size=3 color=black face=宋体><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'>Best wishes,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-top:4.65pt'><font size=3 color=black face=宋体><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'>Xueshan<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=等线><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:\7B49\7EBF'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 color=black face=Calibri><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:windowtext;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 color=black face=Calibri><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Calibri;color:windowtext'> <st1:PersonName w:st="on">fis</st1:PersonName>-bounces@listas.unizar.es
<<st1:PersonName w:st="on">fis</st1:PersonName>-bounces@listas.unizar.es>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Pedro C. Marijuan<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Friday, November 30, 2018
4:10 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName w:st="on">fis</st1:PersonName>@listas.unizar.es<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> [Fis] Focusing on
Narratives<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=宋体><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=宋体><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'>Dear FIS Colleagues,<br>
<br>
Some brief responses to Loet's and Jerry's comments.<br>
<br>
To Loet, unfortunately real life does not allow such neat scheme of
expectations, observations, and modifications/decisions--except in the
abstract. Daily life is surrounded by multitude of behavioral cycles and
happenstances from the subject himself and from the surrounding parties
impinging on the subject. It is difficult to isolate mainstreams there, and it
is difficult to know how to orient oneself for the troubled future. Besides,
important decisions are often irreversible, they mark the course of life and
there is no way to return to the initial conditions. How easily a promising
young life can be wasted... And this is the role of traditional great
stories/narratives: lecturing on how to realize the "potential" of
one's life, orienting on the big unknowns that particularly the young party
starting his/her social life has to confront. They orient, amuse, and
"entertain"--all in one. In our parlance, they are highly efficient <u>social
information tools</u> that contain important adaptive knowledge for flourishing
in some concrete culture. I do not see much interest in what physicalist
perspectives can say on that. Maybe I did not succeed with the terms, trying to
connect the social potential with the general biological potentiality, but this
was the gist.<br>
<br>
In any case, there was a statement in my previous message <i><span
style='font-style:italic'>"I do not consider unscientific the Jungian
stance, but not quite scientific either"</span></i> that in a second
thought consider inappropriate. Rather, Jung's work in this realm should be
taken as belonging to the Humanities. Just that. And to be fair he has provided
a strong way to analyze stories/narratives which has been adopted by some of
the most relevant commentators today (Booker, Bonnet). The further point, after
acknowledging that scholarly fact, is whether that perspective can be
improved... Probably. I already mentioned about the unconscious: that it could
be more accurate considering the brain-rest activation of contemporary
neuroscience (Default Mode Network) as taking charge of that involuntary
emergence of impressions and deep memories. There are now ambitious theoretical
schemes of neural information processing that could provide light on other
points of the conscious, the emotional, the sensorimotor, the
excitation/inhibition coupling, the optimization of neural entropy, etc. But
they have to connect with natural behavior, and also finally with narratives. <br>
<br>
To Jerry's, after his four pages on perplex number system, I can only say that
great, terrific. It could have been an interesting presentation for an ad hoc
discussion session. I am tempted to twist a few sentences of his text and to
intercalate four pages or so on signaling systems, or on the
"sociotype", which is closer to the current session. But that is not
the scholarly way of discussion.<br>
<br>
To finalize, there is a provocative sentence in Bonnet's closing of his book: <b><span
style='font-weight:bold'>"The one who tells the stories rules the
world."</span></b><br>
<br>
Best wishes<br>
--Pedro <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=宋体><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>
El 25/11/2018 a las 5:10, <st1:PersonName w:st="on">Loet Leydesdorff</st1:PersonName>
escribi</span></font>ó<span lang=EN-US>:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=宋体><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'>Dear Pedro, Joseph, and colleagues, <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=宋体><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=宋体><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'>Let me side with Joseph in this instance.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div id=x24986aaac8ed49c>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3 color=black
face=宋体><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 8.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:2.25pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=宋体><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'>memories? And, similarly, does not "potential"
refer to cognitive/anticipatory capabilities that somehow detect higher fitness
possibilities along some behavioral paths than others, and then conduce to the
long term realization and flourishing of a life cycle? The potential belongs,
say, to the "processual" not to the physical. In my view, the general
challenge is to re-explain narratives, the fundamental commodity of social
communication, in a more advanced conceptualization, beyond the Jungian, the
Shannonian, or the corrosive fake-correctedness of our times... It can be
done. The neuroscientific approach would be badly needed to recreate the
terminology and the fundamental ideas.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div id=x24986aaac8ed49c>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=宋体><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'>Perhaps, I miss the meaning of some of the
wordings in this narrative :-), but it seems to me that there is something
terribly wrong here. "The potential belongs ... to the
"processual." We can consider this as "nom de gueux."<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div id=x24986aaac8ed49c>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=宋体><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div id=x24986aaac8ed49c>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=宋体><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'>One always begins with the specification of
expectations. I assume that these are then "processual"? Expectations
(possible states) are tested against observations and can then sometimes be
rejected.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div id=x24986aaac8ed49c>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=宋体><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div id=x24986aaac8ed49c>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=宋体><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'>For example: One can hypothesize that there
are gender differences on this list. Then, one can cross-table those of us who
on average publish 0, 1, or 2 postings with the gender differences (M/F). This
generates a 3 times 2 table. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div id=x24986aaac8ed49c>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=宋体><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div id=x24986aaac8ed49c>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=宋体><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'>Using the margin totals one can compute the
expected values of each cell and test the observed values against the
expectations. The expectations are "processual"? Indeed, they are
possibilities which do not have to be realized. That is an empirical question.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div id=x24986aaac8ed49c>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=宋体><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div id=x24986aaac8ed49c>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=宋体><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'>Unfortunately, Logic-in-Reality works as a
logic with only two values (T/F). This may lead to a poor design when one needs
more grey shades.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div id=x24986aaac8ed49c>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=宋体><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div id=x24986aaac8ed49c>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=宋体><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'>Best,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div id=x24986aaac8ed49c>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=宋体><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'>Loet.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div id=x24986aaac8ed49c>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=宋体><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div id=x24986aaac8ed49c>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=宋体><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=2 color=black
face=Tahoma><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><st1:PersonName w:st="on"><font
size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Loet Leydesdorff</span></font></st1:PersonName><font
size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:#1F497D'>Professor emeritus, <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:PlaceType w:st="on">University</st1:PlaceType>
of <st1:PlaceName w:st="on">Amsterdam</st1:PlaceName></st1:place><br>
<st1:place w:st="on"><st1:PlaceName w:st="on">Amsterdam</st1:PlaceName> <st1:PlaceType
w:st="on">School</st1:PlaceType></st1:place> of Communication Research (ASCoR)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=2 color="#44546a"
face=Calibri><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:#44546A'><a href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net"
title="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net"><font size=2><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>loet@leydesdorff.net
</span></font></a></span></font><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>; </span></font><font
size=2 color="#44546a" face=Calibri><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Calibri;color:#44546A'><a href="http://www.leydesdorff.net/"
title="http://www.leydesdorff.net/"><font size=2><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>http://www.leydesdorff.net/</span></font></a></span></font><font
size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'> <br>
</span></font><font size=1 face=Calibri><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:Calibri'>Associate Faculty, </span></font><font size=2
color="#44546a" face=Calibri><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Calibri;color:#44546A'><a href="http://www.sussex.ac.uk/spru/"><font
size=1><span style='font-size:9.0pt'>SPRU, </span></font></a></span></font><st1:place
w:st="on"><st1:PlaceType w:st="on"><font size=1 face=Calibri><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Calibri'>University</span></font></st1:PlaceType><font
size=1 face=Calibri><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Calibri'>
of <st1:PlaceName w:st="on">Sussex</st1:PlaceName></span></font></st1:place><font
size=1 face=Calibri><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Calibri'>;
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=1 color=black
face=Calibri><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Calibri'>Guest
Professor </span></font><font size=2 color="#44546a" face=Calibri><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#44546A'><a
href="http://www.zju.edu.cn/english/"><font size=1><span style='font-size:9.0pt'>Zhejiang
Univ.</span></font></a></span></font><font size=1 face=Calibri><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Calibri'>, <st1:City w:st="on">Hangzhou</st1:City>;
Visiting Professor, </span></font><font size=2 color="#44546a" face=Calibri><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#44546A'><a
href="http://www.istic.ac.cn/Eng/brief_en.html"><font size=1><span
style='font-size:9.0pt'>ISTIC, </span></font></a></span></font><st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on"><font size=1 face=Calibri><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:Calibri'>Beijing</span></font></st1:place></st1:City><font
size=1 face=Calibri><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Calibri'>;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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face=Calibri><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Calibri'>Visiting
Fellow, </span></font><font size=2 color="#44546a" face=Calibri><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#44546A'><a
href="http://www.bbk.ac.uk/"><font size=1><span style='font-size:9.0pt'>Birkbeck</span></font></a></span></font><font
size=1 face=Calibri><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Calibri'>,
<st1:place w:st="on"><st1:PlaceType w:st="on">University</st1:PlaceType> of <st1:PlaceName
w:st="on">London</st1:PlaceName></st1:place>; <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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face=Calibri><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:#44546A'><a
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lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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face=宋体><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>
<br>
Best regards<br>
--Pedro <br>
<br>
El 21/11/2018 a las 9:31, Joseph Brenner escribi</span></font>ó<span
lang=EN-US>:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 8.0pt;
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:navy'>Dear
Colleagues,</span></font><font face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-family:"Times New Roman"'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:navy'> </span></font><font
face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Times New Roman"'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span
lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:navy'>Pedro’s
approach, solidly anchored in biology, allows for progress in understanding.
Two comments on his ‘logic’: 1) I would not call the
‘concoction’ within which we live imaginary. It is rather a set of
real, dynamic mental processes, with actual and potential, effectively causal
components. 2) ‘Complex life’ instantiates potential (and kinetic)
energy not only in a ‘book keeping role’. Complex life is
constituted by actual and potential energy evolving in cycles and stages. Some
myths (Epimetheus and Prometheus) correctly express this duality and its
evolution.</span></font><font face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-family:"Times New Roman"'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span
lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:navy'> </span></font><font
face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Times New Roman"'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span
lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:navy'>Unfortunately,
there is another myth that I believe correctly models part of Jerry’s
proposals. It is that of Procrustes, an innkeeper who stretched or cut the legs
of his guests to make them fit the only available beds, until taken care of by
Heracles. You write: </span></font><font face="Times New Roman"><span
lang=EN-GB style='font-family:"Times New Roman"'>A lot more needs to be said
about the intimate nature of relations among scientific narratives before one
can bind the logic of the perplex number system to the grammars associated with
mathematically structured anticipatory systems.</span></font><font
face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Times New Roman"'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span
lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:navy'> </span></font><font
face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Times New Roman"'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span
lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:navy'>This
sentence needs to be parsed, given the concatenation of terms: in my opinion,
the purpose of understanding the relations among scientific narratives is to
understand real anticipatory systems, whether or not mathematically structured.
Perplex numbers are artificial numerological constructions with a corresponding
logic that may or may not apply to other artificial constructions, such as
abstract anticipatory systems, without dynamics. Narratives about real science
could be applied in principle to such questions, but the implication must be
avoided that such application would tell us anything about reality. </span></font><font
face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Times New Roman"'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span
lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:navy'> </span></font><font
face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Times New Roman"'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span
lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:navy'>I
cannot accept any manipulation of numbers as being more than <i><span
style='font-style:italic'>a posteriori. </span></i>This applies also to
Karl’s approach. Also, the concept of an ‘in-<i><span
style='font-style:italic'>formed</span></i>’ number is an oxymoron,
although I understand the attempt to ascribe
‘value-by-association’, so to speak. Numbers cannot accept
‘form’, or its meaning; they exist, eternally, outside the world of
form and change. </span></font><font face="Times New Roman"><span
lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Times New Roman"'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span
lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:navy'> </span></font><font
face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Times New Roman"'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span
lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:navy'>I
thus stress the importance of Pedro’s statement: processes do not
go </span></font><font face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-family:"Times New Roman"'>smoothly upwards from the quantum level.</span></font><font
size=2 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:navy'> As one proceeds to higher
levels of reality, there are discontinuities and different laws apply. One only
notes the presence of some isomorphisms, such as the failure of some macroscopic
process equations to commute or distribute. Finally, I, at least, will resist
any attempts to let in, through the back door, anti-scientific concepts of
quantum processes in mind and cognition.</span></font><font
face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Times New Roman"'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span
lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:navy'> </span></font><font
face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Times New Roman"'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span
lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:navy'>Best
wishes,</span></font><font face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-family:"Times New Roman"'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span
lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:navy'> </span></font><font
face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Times New Roman"'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span
lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:navy'>Joseph</span></font><font
face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Times New Roman"'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
color=black face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";color:windowtext'>
<hr size=3 width="100%" align=center>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:windowtext;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;color:windowtext'> Fis [<a
href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es">mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es</a>]
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Pedro C. Marijuan<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> mardi, 20 novembre 2018
21:15<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName w:st="on">fis</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> Jerry LR Chandler<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [Fis] Anticipatory
Systems--"Potential"</span></font><font face="Times New Roman"><span
lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Times New Roman"'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
lang=EN-GB style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"'> </span></font><font
face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Times New Roman"'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"'>Dear Jerry
and FIS colleagues,<br>
<br>
I wonder how big or how clever your Chemostat apparatus should be. There are
thousands of metabolic intermediates in an organism, and there are another
thousands of diversified signals. And we have in the order of 30 billion cells
(trillions in the <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">US</st1:place></st1:country-region>
system). Plus around 100 trillion of bacterial cells in the microbiome.
"We" are the emergence all of that molecular diversity. It does not
mean that life exactly "controls" all the details of the
mega-information of this whole system... How that control is organized, the
principles of biological information, so to speak, become another great
question, but probably very different from the idea of mass control in a
chemostat. </span></font><font face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-family:"Times New Roman"'>In any case, the way you have argued it,
seemingly smoothly going upwards from the quantum level, is beyond of what I
consider feasible. </span></font><font face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-family:"Times New Roman"'>Scientific overstretching of a reasonable
paradigm perhaps.<br>
<br>
Socially, indeed, we do not try to communicate around by following a colossal
strategy of reducing happenstances to their quantum description; neither to the
kind of meta-languages you mention. In general, social communication revolves
around narratives. They are not free-wheeling constructions (at least referring
to the "great stories" of all epochs) but optimized tools to guide
individuals in the advancement of their lives, in the achievement of their
"potential". Looking at the historical evolution of those great
stories, they are teaching us about which were the cardinal aspects of common
life to be specifically grasped by the child, by the adolescent, by the maiden,
the artisan, the warrior, the priest... And in this social communication
endeavors, life cycles do not appear as homogeneous linearly "timed".
Human lives are continuously looking ahead, anticipating ("Prometheus"
style) but simultaneously looking at the past and pondering on it
("Epimetheus" style). Although "presentists", we live
within an imaginary concoction built of mosaic pasts and futures,
"multi-timed" so to speak. The way to harmonize past, present, and
future (vital information) is one of the leit motifs of those great stories.<br>
<br>
And about cycles, so many of them can be found. At the scale of the
organism: cellular & tissular cycles, metabolic cycles, behavioral
cycles, ultradian cycles, circadian cycles, seasonal cycles, yearly cycles,
secular cycles, and many others related to social mores. Some of them can be
arranged in a sort of hierarchy or inclusivity, but there is a fundamental
diversity. That most of this orchestration of cycles does not require a
conscious effort does not mean that we should ignore them concerning the roots
of social communication. The cycles and stages (and "passages")
within a life cycle have an ominous presence. As i was saying, the
"potential" of each young life in ascend requires the reception of
wisdom (via social communication narratives) to integrate the own individual
path within the social matrix of the time.<br>
<br>
Thinking twice about the "potential" of life, it might be something
important to consider regarding any form or manifestation of life. Perhaps
better than the Principle of Conatus from Spinoza I was referring days ago (the
effort to self-maintain and flourish). Complex life has "potential"
to advance along some multi-time, multi-cycle developmental path in the most
complex of all environments: the social matrix. Is there some deep similarity
of this potential with the role that "potential" energy plays in our
book-keeping of energy conservation?<br>
<br>
Thanking the comments,<br>
Best--Pedro<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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</blockquote>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>-- <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>-------------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Pedro C. Marijuán<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Grupo de
Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><a
href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><a
href="http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/">http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>-------------------------------------------------
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='line-height:13.5pt'><font size=2 color="#41424e"
face=Arial><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:#41424E'>Libre de virus. <a
href="https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient"><font
color="#4453ea"><span style='color:#4453EA'>www.avast.com</span></font></a> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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</blockquote>
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</blockquote>
<p><font size=3 color=black face=宋体><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<pre><font size=3 color=black face=宋体><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:12.0pt'>-- <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font size=3
color=black face=宋体><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'>-------------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3 color=black face=宋体><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Pedro C. Mariju</span></font>á<span lang=EN-US>n<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><font
size=3 color=black face=宋体><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Grupo de Bioinformaci</span></font>ó<span lang=EN-US>n / Bioinformation Group<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><font
size=3 color=black face=宋体><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font size=3 color=black
face=宋体><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'><a
href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3 color=black face=宋体><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:
12.0pt'><a href="http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/">http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3 color=black face=宋体><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:
12.0pt'>------------------------------------------------- <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></div>
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