<div dir="ltr">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">The Storytellers Narrative on Jemaa el-Fnah<span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">The storyteller does his job well and gains fame and
reputation with a living, if he guides the audience towards an inner vision, in
which they can submerge, in which they want to submerge, and the re-awakening from
that induced dreamery leaves the mind somehow cleansed, refreshed after having
gained an additional perspective. The artistic experience needs to be
nourishing; that he uses words is a medium of convenience: he could have sung,
danced or painted the story he narrated. If a story is told well, it leaves a
feeling of satisfaction, in both the narrator and the client.<span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">To tell a story about human happiness, lust, urges, drives
and the pursuit of happiness should then be the ultimate on narration: no story
should get more applause as a well-crafted, reasonable, credible narrative
about lust as such. If we start thinking about intelligent machine, we have at
first introduce termini for the reinforcement that follows a correct decision
during the course of learning. What motivates animals and small children to be
curious, to want to learn? <span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Freud came up with the concept of an a-priori determination
of organisms to achieve the disbursement of a unit of reinforcement, which is
independent of the modality (hunger vs thirst, etc.) He chose <i>Eros, </i>then <i>Libido</i>. Today, for a narration that deals with lust, we may colloquially
use the general idea of endorphins for the concept of a material substrate. <span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">We all know lust in its various kinds, forms, shadows and
intensities. We propose to concentrate during this story on the basic version
of lust, which is whish fulfilment, the stating of the actual fact, that
something is the case which has been expected to become the case. This
definition of lust splits reality into two different sub-realities, of which
one is the expectation and prediction of the other, and importantly, the
logical assertion connecting them, that the expected state is in agreement with
the actual state. This wide definition allows for breathing to be a fundamental
supplier of lust, as the urge to breathe in does result in the action of
breathing in, and at fulfilment, the bonus of “correct prediction” is showered
on the gamblers. Now Kronos is in power, but fulfilment is the beginning of
destruction, and what had been the target state is now the actual state, and
the target state is now to be breathed out. There is no ideally filled state of
the lungs, where they could be left alone. Target state and actual state have
to chase each other, and the proposition is to add 1 unit of congratulation to
a general table of merits, if they have successfully met. This is a low level,
strictly regulated example of the continual interaction between target state
and actual state.<span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Processes that are less relevant to biologic survival may be
regulated less closely, and systems of target values can in many cases
massively deviate from actual values, causing much sorrow and anger. <span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">The human brain optimises something while it functions smoothly.
Let us call this something a construct named lust. We can set 1 unit of lust to
be 1 unit of fulfilment of 1 prediction 1 step far. All those basic-level
processes in the physiology of the cell produce the vast bulk of lust, without
which we would be seriously ill or could not live. The subtle triumph of being
able to say: I told you she would let him move in, can give you food for
thought, but will not nourish the body. That is the level of peristaltic, where
we see the art of predicting future states, and slowing down or accelerating the
referencing processes that interlink expansion and constriction. It is our
anthropocentric culture that determines how we see cybernetic systems of
auto-regulation, and we tend to eulogy electric discharges while denigrating
processes in fluid environments. Thoughts are easier named and classified than
feelings of jealousy, hunger or hope. For our life, these are however, more
integral. May the scientists imagine machines of many kinds: these will remain
machines only, as long as their creators do not understand the Duet of Life,
the everlasting interaction between Target State and Actual State (and the
mysterious Third: Neither, about whom at our next story telling). The unit of
lust is one match between an actual state and a target state. <span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">There is much more to tell, lust is an inexhaustible topic. If
there was an effort to design a machine that can think, that contraption should
be built around the motivator of lust (and its counterpart <i>Thanatos, </i>aka <i>Destrudo, </i>Pedro’s
beloved apoptosis), as feeling is before thinking, and feeling happens in a
fluid environment, which is bi-modal and tri-modal at the same time. Go home now,
my friends, and remember, fasting and feasting teaches us, that our thought patterns
are greatly dependent on what we have eaten, and how long ago.<span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Summary: <span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Predictions are a part of life. Those predictions that come
true can be assigned a bonus. It appears that humans’ pursuit of happiness is
in fact an optimising procedure to maximise said bonus. It can be helpful to
agree on a name for the bonus. Tradition leads us to use the idea of lust. (Eros,
Libido as opposed to Thanatos, Destrudo.) The more basic a life function, the
more strictly it is regulated. The principle is that actual value and target
value change places once they match, beginning a new half-cycle. The important
implication, namely that there is a usual range of not-matching between target
and actual values, and neither the over-continuity, over-identity and over-monotony
of the graveyard, nor the over-fragmented, over-diverse, over-unpredictable,
chaotic version are supportive of life, therefore an ideal range of “enough of,
but not too much of, the same among all, that can be the sane or different”
exists, will be discussed in the sequel.<span></span></p>
</div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">Am Mo., 3. Dez. 2018 um 20:58 Uhr schrieb Pedro C. Marijuan <<a href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>>:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div class="m_-5669217358736613089moz-cite-prefix">Dear FIS Colleagues,<br>
<br>
Thanks to Joseph and Loet for the comments. Perhaps a reference to
the time frame of behavior may contribute to explain the
discrepancies found--roughly, we could distinguish the micro,
meso, and macro time-levels. At the "micro" level, exemplifying it
in a neat problem solving task that can be performed in relative
isolation, say working a couple of hours in some professional or
manual task, the behavior may approached well by "abstract"
procedures related to problem solving techniques and also
organization-engineering methodologies. Let us note that we are
naturally endowed with a "knowledge instinct" (Perlovsky) so that
elegant procedures of solution may flow from a sufficiently clever
person (irrespective of the epoch, technologies, education, etc.).
Further, at the "meso" time-level, we abandon the closed scenario
and are facing the open, simultaneous interrelation with other
parties, perhaps many of them, a full "sociotype" around us, often
bringing upon our shoulders lots of problems and requests. For
instance, what happens along a working day in some coordinating
position, and also after arriving home (which could be even worse,
loaded with emotional overtones and conflicts). This kind of daily
life was under the "random" term in a previous message; one is
always interrupted by some unexpected "happenstance". Quite many
movies and novels are focusing in this daily stuff, describing the
"unbearable levity", the fatigue, lack of meaning, etc. But let us
realize that they are often attempting to provide us with a
"macro" perspective so that the reader, the spectator, can focus
on some essential aspect that has been separated, distilled, and
concentrated along a "story" or narrative. If the work is good, it
entertains us, and may bring upon us intense feelings and
emotions, and we often obtain some sort of relevant lesson for our
own life. <br>
Elias Canetti describes in his nice compilation of Marocco tales,
"The voices of Marrakesh", how the central place of the market
square was for the "storytellers", around them raptured throngs
were following their narratives for hours, with intense
concentration. These storytellers were very famous and the most
appreciated parties in the whole market. Why? They provided
something, a life-wisdom, a knowledge of the human condition, an
emotional "massage", the "macro" perspective on some important
aspect of life in the energizing background of a group audience...
And that was a gift most appreciated by the people in that
basically oral culture. In our societies, an enormous industry of
entertainment works to provide us with sophisticate products,
somehow surrogate of this public storytelling, but as John Putnam
eloquently put it we have finally been left out "Bowling Alone"
(2000).<br>
<br>
Best wishes<br>
--Pedro<br>
<br>
El 30/11/2018 a las 10:48, Joseph Brenner escribió:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<u></u>
<div class="m_-5669217358736613089Section1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Dear Pedro, Dear
Loet,<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy" lang="EN-GB">It would be useful, at
least for this beginning student of philosophy, to have
the equivalent of
happenstance in some other languages. ‘Happenstance’ is
English is
equated to ‘random event’. If the term is applied to
occurrences in
daily life, this makes them random. I disagree with this
ascription.
Happenstances are for me events which are
epistemologically opaque, not
ontologically random. Thus <i><span style="font-style:italic">I </span></i>wish
to explain as many of them as possible, as some indeed,
perhaps the most
significant ones in real life, deserve as rigorous an
explanation as possible.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy" lang="EN-GB"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy" lang="EN-GB">As I struggle to understand
the purport of ‘narrative’, I try to relate it to the
deterministic
<i><span style="font-style:italic">and </span></i>non-deterministic
aspects of active
consciousness. If I say that these aspects are a part of
and even crucial to
the narrative, the ‘narrative’ is changing. This is a
good sign
that a narrative may be something real. I do not, do not
want to, and I think should
not separate discovery from the, also changing, context
of discovery. Pedro
focuses, correctly, on the ‘messiness’ of the result;
real life may
consist in part of <i><span style="font-style:italic">explanantes
</span></i>and
<i><span style="font-style:italic">explananda</span></i>,
but not<i><span style="font-style:italic"> </span></i>in
the classical, I am afraid abstract
sense. <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy" lang="EN-GB"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy" lang="EN-GB">That is my ‘orientation
for the troubled future’: nothing certain; pieces of
useful method to be recovered
from amidst a lot of jargon (<i><span style="font-style:italic">e.g.</span></i>,
dialectics); openness to everything that does not
require absolute adherence to
the fundamentality of abstractions.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy" lang="EN-GB"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy" lang="EN-GB">Cheers,<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy" lang="EN-GB"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy" lang="EN-GB">Joseph<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="navy"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy" lang="EN-GB"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:center" align="center"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt" lang="EN-US">
<hr size="3" align="center" width="100%">
</span></font></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold" lang="EN-US">From:</span></font></b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma" lang="EN-US">
Fis [mailto:<u></u>fis<u></u>-<a href="mailto:bounces@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">bounces@listas.unizar.es</a>]
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">On Behalf Of </span></b><u></u>Loet Leydesdorff<u></u><br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b>
vendredi, 30 novembre 2018
07:07<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> Pedro
C. Marijuan; <u></u>fis<u></u>@<a href="http://listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">listas.unizar.es</a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b>
Re: [Fis] Focusing on
Narratives</span></font><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI"">Dear Pedro, <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI""><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div id="m_-5669217358736613089xca2bddc4c2b4479">
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 5.0pt;margin-left:2.5pt;margin-top:1.5pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI"">To Loet,
unfortunately real life does not allow such
neat scheme of expectations, observations, and
modifications/decisions--except
in the abstract. Daily life is surrounded by
multitude of behavioral cycles and
happenstances from the subject himself and from
the surrounding parties
impinging on the subject. It is difficult to
isolate mainstreams there, and it
is difficult to know how to orient oneself for the
troubled future. <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div id="m_-5669217358736613089xca2bddc4c2b4479">
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI"">This is called the
context of discovery. Real life is
neither an explanans nor an explanandum. Who wishes
to explain happenstances?<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div id="m_-5669217358736613089xca2bddc4c2b4479">
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI""><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div id="m_-5669217358736613089xca2bddc4c2b4479">
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI"">This is strange. <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div id="m_-5669217358736613089xca2bddc4c2b4479">
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI""><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 5.0pt;margin-left:2.5pt;margin-top:1.5pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt" type="cite">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI"">There are now
ambitious theoretical schemes of neural
information processing that could provide light on
other points of the
conscious, the emotional, the sensorimotor, the
excitation/inhibition coupling,
the optimization of neural entropy, etc. But they
have to connect with natural
behavior, and also finally with narratives. <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI""><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-left:20.0pt;margin-right:0cm" type="cite">
<div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 5.0pt;margin-left:2.5pt;margin-top:1.5pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI"">I assume that
your behaviour is more
"natural" than mine. Eventually, this may lead
to narratives as
bla-bla. Of course, everything has to be spelled
out in an explanation.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI""><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI"">Best,<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI"">Loet<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI""><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 5.0pt;margin-left:2.5pt;margin-top:1.5pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt" type="cite">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI""><br>
<br>
<br>
To Jerry's, after his four pages on perplex number
system, I can only say that
great, terrific. It could have been an interesting
presentation for an ad hoc
discussion session. I am tempted to twist a few
sentences of his text and to
intercalate four pages or so on signaling systems,
or on the
"sociotype", which is closer to the current
session. But that is not
the scholarly way of discussion.<br>
<br>
To finalize, there is a provocative sentence in
Bonnet's closing of his book:
"The one who tells the stories rules the world."<br>
<br>
Best wishes<br>
--Pedro <br>
<br>
<br>
El 25/11/2018 a las 5:10, <u></u>Loet Leydesdorff<u></u>
escribió:<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 5.0pt;margin-left:2.5pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt" type="cite">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI"">Dear Pedro,
Joseph, and colleagues, <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI""><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI"">Let me side
with Joseph in this instance.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div id="m_-5669217358736613089x24986aaac8ed49c">
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI""><br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI"">memories?
And, similarly, does not
"potential" refer to cognitive/anticipatory
capabilities that somehow
detect higher fitness possibilities along some
behavioral paths than others,
and then conduce to the long term realization
and flourishing of a life cycle?
The potential belongs, say, to the
"processual" not to the physical.
In my view, the general challenge is to
re-explain narratives, the fundamental
commodity of social communication, in a more
advanced conceptualization, beyond
the Jungian, the Shannonian, or the corrosive
fake-correctedness of our
times... It can be done. The neuroscientific
approach would be badly needed to
recreate the terminology and the fundamental
ideas.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div id="m_-5669217358736613089x24986aaac8ed49c">
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI"">Perhaps, I
miss the meaning of some of the wordings in
this narrative :-), but it seems to me that
there is something terribly wrong
here. "The potential belongs ... to the
"processual." We can
consider this as "nom de gueux."<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div id="m_-5669217358736613089x24986aaac8ed49c">
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI""><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div id="m_-5669217358736613089x24986aaac8ed49c">
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI"">One always
begins with the specification of
expectations. I assume that these are then
"processual"? Expectations
(possible states) are tested against
observations and can then sometimes be
rejected.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div id="m_-5669217358736613089x24986aaac8ed49c">
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI""><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div id="m_-5669217358736613089x24986aaac8ed49c">
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI"">For example:
One can hypothesize that there are gender
differences on this list. Then, one can
cross-table those of us who on average
publish 0, 1, or 2 postings with the gender
differences (M/F). This
generates a 3 times 2 table. <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div id="m_-5669217358736613089x24986aaac8ed49c">
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI""><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div id="m_-5669217358736613089x24986aaac8ed49c">
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI"">Using the
margin totals one can compute the expected
values of each cell and test the observed
values against the expectations. The
expectations are "processual"? Indeed, they
are possibilities which
do not have to be realized. That is an
empirical question.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div id="m_-5669217358736613089x24986aaac8ed49c">
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI""><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div id="m_-5669217358736613089x24986aaac8ed49c">
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI"">Unfortunately,
Logic-in-Reality works as a logic with
only two values (T/F). This may lead to a poor
design when one needs more grey
shades.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div id="m_-5669217358736613089x24986aaac8ed49c">
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI""><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div id="m_-5669217358736613089x24986aaac8ed49c">
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI"">Best,<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div id="m_-5669217358736613089x24986aaac8ed49c">
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI"">Loet.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div id="m_-5669217358736613089x24986aaac8ed49c">
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI""><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div id="m_-5669217358736613089x24986aaac8ed49c">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe
UI"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI""><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div id="m_-5669217358736613089signature_old">
<div id="m_-5669217358736613089x128ab7c5cf174b0">
<div id="m_-5669217358736613089x775eaf3ae7f6460082dcdda3faf877c6">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI""><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div id="m_-5669217358736613089signature_old">
<div id="m_-5669217358736613089x920d19d74fc84b0">
<div id="m_-5669217358736613089x337b22579712426abf55c20f258d0a74">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"><span>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"><span>Loet Leydesdorff</span></font><u></u><font face="Segoe UI"><span> <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"><span> <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"><span>Professor emeritus,
University of Amsterdam<br>
Amsterdam School of
Communication Research (ASCoR)<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"><span> <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"><span><a class="m_-5669217358736613089moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net" target="_blank">loet@leydesdorff.net</a>
<a class="m_-5669217358736613089moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net" target="_blank"><mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net></a>; <a class="m_-5669217358736613089moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.leydesdorff.net/" target="_blank">http://www.leydesdorff.net/</a> <br>
Associate Faculty, SPRU,
<a class="m_-5669217358736613089moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://www.sussex.ac.uk/spru/" target="_blank"><http://www.sussex.ac.uk/spru/></a>University
of
Sussex; <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"><span> <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"><span>Guest Professor
Zhejiang Univ.
<a class="m_-5669217358736613089moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://www.zju.edu.cn/english/" target="_blank"><http://www.zju.edu.cn/english/></a>, Hangzhou; Visiting Professor,
ISTIC,
<a class="m_-5669217358736613089moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://www.istic.ac.cn/Eng/brief_en.html" target="_blank"><http://www.istic.ac.cn/Eng/brief_en.html></a>Beijing;<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"><span> <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"><span>Visiting Fellow,
Birkbeck
<a class="m_-5669217358736613089moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://www.bbk.ac.uk/" target="_blank"><http://www.bbk.ac.uk/></a>,
University of London; <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"><span> <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"><span><a class="m_-5669217358736613089moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en" target="_blank">http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en</a><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div id="m_-5669217358736613089x337b22579712426abf55c20f258d0a74">
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"><span><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI""><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI""><br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI""><br>
<br>
Best regards<br>
--Pedro <br>
<br>
El 21/11/2018 a las 9:31, Joseph Brenner
escribió:<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 5.0pt;margin-left:2.5pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt" type="cite">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe
UI"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI"">Dear
Colleagues,<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe
UI"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI""> <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe
UI"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI""> <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe
UI"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI""> <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe
UI"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI"">Pedro’s
approach, solidly anchored in biology,
allows for progress in understanding. Two
comments on his ‘logic’:
1) I would not call the ‘concoction’
within which we live
imaginary. It is rather a set of real,
dynamic mental processes, with actual
and potential, effectively causal
components. 2) ‘Complex life’
instantiates potential (and kinetic)
energy not only in a ‘book keeping
role’. Complex life is constituted by
actual and potential energy
evolving in cycles and stages. Some myths
(Epimetheus and Prometheus) correctly
express this duality and its evolution.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe
UI"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI""> <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe
UI"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI""> <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe
UI"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI""> <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe
UI"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI"">Unfortunately,
there is another myth that I believe
correctly models part of Jerry’s
proposals. It is that of Procrustes, an
innkeeper who stretched or cut the legs of
his guests to make them fit the only
available beds, until taken care of by
Heracles. You write: A lot
more needs to be said about the intimate
nature of relations among scientific
narratives before one can bind the logic
of the perplex number system to the
grammars associated with mathematically
structured anticipatory systems.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe
UI"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI""> <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe
UI"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI""> <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe
UI"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI""> <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe
UI"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI"">This
sentence needs to be parsed, given the
concatenation of terms: in my opinion, the
purpose of understanding the
relations among scientific narratives is
to understand real anticipatory
systems, whether or not mathematically
structured. Perplex numbers are
artificial numerological constructions
with a corresponding logic that may or
may not apply to other artificial
constructions, such as abstract
anticipatory
systems, without dynamics. Narratives
about real science could be applied in
principle to such questions, but the
implication must be avoided that such
application would tell us anything about
reality. <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe
UI"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI""> <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe
UI"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI""> <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe
UI"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI""> <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe
UI"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI"">I cannot
accept any manipulation of numbers as
being
more than a posteriori. This applies also
to Karl’s approach. Also, the
concept of an ‘in-formed’ number is an
oxymoron, although I
understand the attempt to ascribe
‘value-by-association’, so to
speak. Numbers cannot accept ‘form’, or
its meaning; they exist,
eternally, outside the world of form and
change. <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe
UI"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI""> <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe
UI"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI""> <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe
UI"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI""> <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe
UI"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI"">I thus
stress the importance of Pedro’s
statement: processes do not go smoothly
upwards from the quantum level.
As one proceeds to higher levels of
reality, there are discontinuities and
different laws apply. One only notes the
presence of some isomorphisms, such as
the failure of some macroscopic process
equations to commute or distribute.
Finally, I, at least, will resist any
attempts to let in, through the back
door, anti-scientific concepts of quantum
processes in mind and cognition.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe
UI"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI""> <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe
UI"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI""> <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe
UI"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI""> <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe
UI"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI"">Best
wishes,<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe
UI"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI""> <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe
UI"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI""> <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe
UI"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI""> <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe
UI"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI"">Joseph<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe
UI"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI""> <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI"">--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI"">From:
Fis [mailto:<u></u>fis<u></u>-<a href="mailto:bounces@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">bounces@listas.unizar.es</a>]
On Behalf Of Pedro C. Marijuan<br>
Sent: mardi, 20 novembre 2018 21:15<br>
To: <u></u>fis<u></u><br>
Cc: Jerry LR Chandler<br>
Subject: Re: [Fis] Anticipatory
Systems--"Potential"<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI""> <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe
UI"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI""> <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe
UI"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI""> <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI"">Dear
Jerry and FIS colleagues,<br>
<br>
I wonder how big or how clever your
Chemostat apparatus should be. There are
thousands of metabolic intermediates in
an organism, and there are another
thousands of diversified signals. And we
have in the order of 30 billion cells
(trillions
in the US system). Plus around 100
trillion of bacterial cells in the
microbiome. "We" are the emergence all
of that molecular diversity.
It does not mean that life exactly
"controls" all the details of the
mega-information of this whole system...
How that control is organized, the
principles of biological information, so
to speak, become another great
question, but probably very different
from the idea of mass control in a
chemostat. In any case, the way you have
argued it, seemingly smoothly going
upwards from the quantum level, is
beyond of what I consider feasible.
Scientific overstretching of a
reasonable paradigm perhaps.<br>
<br>
Socially, indeed, we do not try to
communicate around by following a
colossal
strategy of reducing happenstances to
their quantum description; neither to
the
kind of meta-languages you mention. In
general, social communication revolves
around narratives. They are not
free-wheeling constructions (at least
referring
to the "great stories" of all epochs)
but optimized tools to guide
individuals in the advancement of their
lives, in the achievement of their
"potential". Looking at the historical
evolution of those great
stories, they are teaching us about
which were the cardinal aspects of
common
life to be specifically grasped by the
child, by the adolescent, by the maiden,
the artisan, the warrior, the priest...
And in this social communication
endeavors, life cycles do not appear as
homogeneous linearly "timed".
Human lives are continuously looking
ahead, anticipating ("Prometheus"
style) but simultaneously looking at the
past and pondering on it
("Epimetheus" style). Although
"presentists", we live
within an imaginary concoction built of
mosaic pasts and futures,
"multi-timed" so to speak. The way to
harmonize past, present, and
future (vital information) is one of the
leit motifs of those great stories.<br>
<br>
And about cycles, so many of them can be
found. At the scale of the
organism: cellular & tissular
cycles, metabolic cycles, behavioral
cycles, ultradian cycles, circadian
cycles, seasonal cycles, yearly cycles,
secular cycles, and many others related
to social mores. Some of them can be
arranged in a sort of hierarchy or
inclusivity, but there is a fundamental
diversity. That most of this
orchestration of cycles does not require
a
conscious effort does not mean that we
should ignore them concerning the roots
of social communication. The cycles and
stages (and "passages")
within a life cycle have an ominous
presence. As i was saying, the
"potential" of each young life in ascend
requires the reception of
wisdom (via social communication
narratives) to integrate the own
individual
path within the social matrix of the
time.<br>
<br>
Thinking twice about the "potential" of
life, it might be something
important to consider regarding any form
or manifestation of life. Perhaps
better than the Principle of Conatus
from Spinoza I was referring days ago
(the
effort to self-maintain and flourish).
Complex life has "potential"
to advance along some multi-time,
multi-cycle developmental path in the
most
complex of all environments: the social
matrix. Is there some deep similarity
of this potential with the role that
"potential" energy plays in our
book-keeping of energy conservation?<br>
<br>
Thanking the comments,<br>
Best--Pedro<br>
<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI""> <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<pre><font size="2" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">_______________________________________________<u></u><u></u></span></font></pre>
<pre><font size="2" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">Fis mailing list<u></u><u></u></span></font></pre>
<pre><font size="2" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"><a class="m_-5669217358736613089moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><u></u><u></u></span></font></pre>
<pre><font size="2" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"><a class="m_-5669217358736613089moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/" target="_blank">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/</a><u></u>fis<u></u><u></u><u></u></span></font></pre>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI""><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI""> <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<pre><font size="2" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">-- <u></u><u></u></span></font></pre>
<pre><font size="2" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">-------------------------------------------------<u></u><u></u></span></font></pre>
<pre><font size="2" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">Pedro C. Marijuán<u></u><u></u></span></font></pre>
<pre><font size="2" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group<u></u><u></u></span></font></pre>
<pre><font size="2" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></pre>
<pre><font size="2" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"><a class="m_-5669217358736613089moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" target="_blank">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a><u></u><u></u></span></font></pre>
<pre><font size="2" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"><a class="m_-5669217358736613089moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/" target="_blank">http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/</a><u></u><u></u></span></font></pre>
<pre><font size="2" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">------------------------------------------------- <u></u><u></u></span></font></pre>
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Libre de virus. <a class="m_-5669217358736613089moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.avast.com" target="_blank">www.avast.com</a>
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<pre><font size="2" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">-- <u></u><u></u></span></font></pre>
<pre><font size="2" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">-------------------------------------------------<u></u><u></u></span></font></pre>
<pre><font size="2" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">Pedro C. Marijuán<u></u><u></u></span></font></pre>
<pre><font size="2" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group<u></u><u></u></span></font></pre>
<pre><font size="2" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></pre>
<pre><font size="2" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"><a class="m_-5669217358736613089moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" target="_blank">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a><u></u><u></u></span></font></pre>
<pre><font size="2" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"><a class="m_-5669217358736613089moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/" target="_blank">http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/</a><u></u><u></u></span></font></pre>
<pre><font size="2" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">------------------------------------------------- <u></u><u></u></span></font></pre>
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<pre class="m_-5669217358736613089moz-signature" cols="72">--
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Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
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