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<div>Dear Joseph,</div><div><br /></div><div id="x3ad45927f85e40b"><blockquote cite="5AF89676D65B4869A77AA33899372928@laptopr7q1bsbb" type="cite" class="cite2"><div class="Section1"><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">That is my ‘orientation
for the troubled future’: nothing certain; pieces of useful method to be recovered
from amidst a lot of jargon (<i>e.g.</i>,
dialectics); openness to everything that does not require absolute adherence to
the fundamentality of abstractions.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Joseph<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p><br /></o:p></span></font></p></div></blockquote><font color="#000080" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 13.3333px;"><div id="x3ad45927f85e40b"><font color="#000080"><span>Dear Joseph: I agree. One is free to think and explore in the context of discovery. After the explorative phase, one proceeds to specify more precisely and perhaps to test. </span></font></div><div id="x3ad45927f85e40b"><font color="#000080"><span><br /></span></font></div><div id="x3ad45927f85e40b"><font color="#000080"><span>The problem was that Pedro prefers to stay with the narrative in everyday life. In my opinion, science begins with a reflection on the status of statements and observations. The casuistic of random events is not sufficient for the reason of quality control.</span></font></div><div id="x3ad45927f85e40b"><font color="#000080"><span><br /></span></font></div><div id="x3ad45927f85e40b"><font color="#000080"><span>Best,</span></font></div><div id="x3ad45927f85e40b"><font color="#000080"><span>Loet</span></font></div><div id="x3ad45927f85e40b"><font color="#000080"><span><br /></span></font></div><br /></span></font><blockquote cite="5AF89676D65B4869A77AA33899372928@laptopr7q1bsbb" type="cite" class="cite2"><div class="Section1"><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold">From:</span></font></b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma">
Fis [mailto:<st1:personname w:st="on" xmlns:w="#unknown2" xmlns:st1="#unknown1">fis</st1:personname><a href="mailto:-bounces@listas.unizar.es">-bounces@listas.unizar.es</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b><st1:personname w:st="on" xmlns:w="#unknown2" xmlns:st1="#unknown1">Loet Leydesdorff</st1:personname><br />
<b>Sent:</b> vendredi, 30 novembre 2018
07:07<br />
<b>To:</b> Pedro C. Marijuan; <st1:personname w:st="on" xmlns:w="#unknown2" xmlns:st1="#unknown1">fis</st1:personname>@listas.unizar.es<br />
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fis] Focusing on
Narratives</span></font><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3"><o:p> </o:p></font></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI">Dear Pedro, <o:p></o:p></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"><o:p> </o:p></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI">To Loet, unfortunately real life does not allow such
neat scheme of expectations, observations, and modifications/decisions--except
in the abstract. Daily life is surrounded by multitude of behavioral cycles and
happenstances from the subject himself and from the surrounding parties
impinging on the subject. It is difficult to isolate mainstreams there, and it
is difficult to know how to orient oneself for the troubled future. <o:p></o:p></font></p>
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<div id="xca2bddc4c2b4479">
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI">This is called the context of discovery. Real life is
neither an explanans nor an explanandum. Who wishes to explain happenstances?<o:p></o:p></font></p>
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<div id="xca2bddc4c2b4479">
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"><o:p> </o:p></font></p>
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<div id="xca2bddc4c2b4479">
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI">This is strange. <o:p></o:p></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"><o:p> </o:p></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI">There are now ambitious theoretical schemes of neural
information processing that could provide light on other points of the
conscious, the emotional, the sensorimotor, the excitation/inhibition coupling,
the optimization of neural entropy, etc. But they have to connect with natural
behavior, and also finally with narratives. <o:p></o:p></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"><o:p> </o:p></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI">I assume that your behaviour is more
"natural" than mine. Eventually, this may lead to narratives as
bla-bla. Of course, everything has to be spelled out in an explanation.<o:p></o:p></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"><o:p> </o:p></font></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI">Best,<o:p></o:p></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI">Loet<o:p></o:p></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"><o:p> </o:p></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"><br />
<br />
<br />
To Jerry's, after his four pages on perplex number system, I can only say that
great, terrific. It could have been an interesting presentation for an ad hoc
discussion session. I am tempted to twist a few sentences of his text and to
intercalate four pages or so on signaling systems, or on the
"sociotype", which is closer to the current session. But that is not
the scholarly way of discussion.<br />
<br />
To finalize, there is a provocative sentence in Bonnet's closing of his book:
"The one who tells the stories rules the world."<br />
<br />
Best wishes<br />
--Pedro <br />
<br />
<br />
El 25/11/2018 a las 5:10, <st1:personname w:st="on" xmlns:w="#unknown2" xmlns:st1="#unknown1">Loet Leydesdorff</st1:personname>
escribió:<o:p></o:p></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI">Dear Pedro, Joseph, and colleagues, <o:p></o:p></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"><o:p> </o:p></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI">Let me side with Joseph in this instance.<o:p></o:p></font></p>
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<br />
<o:p></o:p></font></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI">memories? And, similarly, does not
"potential" refer to cognitive/anticipatory capabilities that somehow
detect higher fitness possibilities along some behavioral paths than others,
and then conduce to the long term realization and flourishing of a life cycle?
The potential belongs, say, to the "processual" not to the physical.
In my view, the general challenge is to re-explain narratives, the fundamental
commodity of social communication, in a more advanced conceptualization, beyond
the Jungian, the Shannonian, or the corrosive fake-correctedness of our
times... It can be done. The neuroscientific approach would be badly needed to
recreate the terminology and the fundamental ideas.<o:p></o:p></font></p>
</div>
<div id="x24986aaac8ed49c">
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI">Perhaps, I miss the meaning of some of the wordings in
this narrative :-), but it seems to me that there is something terribly wrong
here. "The potential belongs ... to the "processual." We can
consider this as "nom de gueux."<o:p></o:p></font></p>
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<div id="x24986aaac8ed49c">
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"><o:p> </o:p></font></p>
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<div id="x24986aaac8ed49c">
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI">One always begins with the specification of
expectations. I assume that these are then "processual"? Expectations
(possible states) are tested against observations and can then sometimes be
rejected.<o:p></o:p></font></p>
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<div id="x24986aaac8ed49c">
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"><o:p> </o:p></font></p>
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<div id="x24986aaac8ed49c">
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI">For example: One can hypothesize that there are gender
differences on this list. Then, one can cross-table those of us who on average
publish 0, 1, or 2 postings with the gender differences (M/F). This
generates a 3 times 2 table. <o:p></o:p></font></p>
</div>
<div id="x24986aaac8ed49c">
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"><o:p> </o:p></font></p>
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<div id="x24986aaac8ed49c">
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI">Using the margin totals one can compute the expected
values of each cell and test the observed values against the expectations. The
expectations are "processual"? Indeed, they are possibilities which
do not have to be realized. That is an empirical question.<o:p></o:p></font></p>
</div>
<div id="x24986aaac8ed49c">
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"><o:p> </o:p></font></p>
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<div id="x24986aaac8ed49c">
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI">Unfortunately, Logic-in-Reality works as a logic with
only two values (T/F). This may lead to a poor design when one needs more grey
shades.<o:p></o:p></font></p>
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<div id="x24986aaac8ed49c">
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"><o:p> </o:p></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI">Best,<o:p></o:p></font></p>
</div>
<div id="x24986aaac8ed49c">
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI">Loet.<o:p></o:p></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"><o:p> </o:p></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI">--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></font></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><st1:personname w:st="on" xmlns:w="#unknown2" xmlns:st1="#unknown1"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI">Loet Leydesdorff</font></st1:personname><font face="Segoe UI"> <o:p></o:p></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"> <o:p></o:p></font></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI">Professor emeritus, University of Amsterdam<br />
Amsterdam School of Communication Research (ASCoR)<o:p></o:p></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"> <o:p></o:p></font></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"><a href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net">loet@leydesdorff.net</a>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net">loet@leydesdorff.net</a>>; <a href="http://www.leydesdorff.net/">http://www.leydesdorff.net/</a> <br />
Associate Faculty, SPRU, <<a href="http://www.sussex.ac.uk/spru/">http://www.sussex.ac.uk/spru/</a>>University of
Sussex; <o:p></o:p></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"> <o:p></o:p></font></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI">Guest Professor Zhejiang Univ.
<<a href="http://www.zju.edu.cn/english/">http://www.zju.edu.cn/english/</a>>, Hangzhou; Visiting Professor, ISTIC,
<<a href="http://www.istic.ac.cn/Eng/brief_en.html">http://www.istic.ac.cn/Eng/brief_en.html</a>>Beijing;<o:p></o:p></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"> <o:p></o:p></font></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI">Visiting Fellow, Birkbeck
<<a href="http://www.bbk.ac.uk/">http://www.bbk.ac.uk/</a>>, University of London; <o:p></o:p></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"> <o:p></o:p></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"><a href="http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en">http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en</a><o:p></o:p></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"><o:p> </o:p></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"><o:p> </o:p></font></p>
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<br />
<o:p></o:p></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"><br />
<br />
Best regards<br />
--Pedro <br />
<br />
El 21/11/2018 a las 9:31, Joseph Brenner escribió:<o:p></o:p></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI">Dear Colleagues,<o:p></o:p></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"> <o:p></o:p></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"> <o:p></o:p></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"> <o:p></o:p></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI">Pedro’s approach, solidly anchored in biology,
allows for progress in understanding. Two comments on his ‘logic’:
1) I would not call the ‘concoction’ within which we live
imaginary. It is rather a set of real, dynamic mental processes, with actual
and potential, effectively causal components. 2) ‘Complex life’
instantiates potential (and kinetic) energy not only in a ‘book keeping
role’. Complex life is constituted by actual and potential energy
evolving in cycles and stages. Some myths (Epimetheus and Prometheus) correctly
express this duality and its evolution.<o:p></o:p></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"> <o:p></o:p></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"> <o:p></o:p></font></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI"> <o:p></o:p></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI">Unfortunately, there is another myth that I believe
correctly models part of Jerry’s proposals. It is that of Procrustes, an
innkeeper who stretched or cut the legs of his guests to make them fit the only
available beds, until taken care of by Heracles. You write: A lot
more needs to be said about the intimate nature of relations among scientific
narratives before one can bind the logic of the perplex number system to the
grammars associated with mathematically structured anticipatory systems.<o:p></o:p></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI">This sentence needs to be parsed, given the
concatenation of terms: in my opinion, the purpose of understanding the
relations among scientific narratives is to understand real anticipatory
systems, whether or not mathematically structured. Perplex numbers are
artificial numerological constructions with a corresponding logic that may or
may not apply to other artificial constructions, such as abstract anticipatory
systems, without dynamics. Narratives about real science could be applied in
principle to such questions, but the implication must be avoided that such
application would tell us anything about reality. <o:p></o:p></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI">I cannot accept any manipulation of numbers as being
more than a posteriori. This applies also to Karl’s approach. Also, the
concept of an ‘in-formed’ number is an oxymoron, although I
understand the attempt to ascribe ‘value-by-association’, so to
speak. Numbers cannot accept ‘form’, or its meaning; they exist,
eternally, outside the world of form and change. <o:p></o:p></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI">I thus stress the importance of Pedro’s
statement: processes do not go smoothly upwards from the quantum level.
As one proceeds to higher levels of reality, there are discontinuities and
different laws apply. One only notes the presence of some isomorphisms, such as
the failure of some macroscopic process equations to commute or distribute.
Finally, I, at least, will resist any attempts to let in, through the back
door, anti-scientific concepts of quantum processes in mind and cognition.<o:p></o:p></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI">Best wishes,<o:p></o:p></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI">Joseph<o:p></o:p></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI">From: Fis [mailto:<st1:personname w:st="on" xmlns:w="#unknown2" xmlns:st1="#unknown1">fis</st1:personname><a href="mailto:-bounces@listas.unizar.es">-bounces@listas.unizar.es</a>]
On Behalf Of Pedro C. Marijuan<br />
Sent: mardi, 20 novembre 2018 21:15<br />
To: <st1:personname w:st="on" xmlns:w="#unknown2" xmlns:st1="#unknown1">fis</st1:personname><br />
Cc: Jerry LR Chandler<br />
Subject: Re: [Fis] Anticipatory Systems--"Potential"<o:p></o:p></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Segoe UI">Dear Jerry and FIS colleagues,<br />
<br />
I wonder how big or how clever your Chemostat apparatus should be. There are
thousands of metabolic intermediates in an organism, and there are another
thousands of diversified signals. And we have in the order of 30 billion cells (trillions
in the US system). Plus around 100 trillion of bacterial cells in the
microbiome. "We" are the emergence all of that molecular diversity.
It does not mean that life exactly "controls" all the details of the
mega-information of this whole system... How that control is organized, the
principles of biological information, so to speak, become another great
question, but probably very different from the idea of mass control in a
chemostat. In any case, the way you have argued it, seemingly smoothly going
upwards from the quantum level, is beyond of what I consider feasible.
Scientific overstretching of a reasonable paradigm perhaps.<br />
<br />
Socially, indeed, we do not try to communicate around by following a colossal
strategy of reducing happenstances to their quantum description; neither to the
kind of meta-languages you mention. In general, social communication revolves
around narratives. They are not free-wheeling constructions (at least referring
to the "great stories" of all epochs) but optimized tools to guide
individuals in the advancement of their lives, in the achievement of their
"potential". Looking at the historical evolution of those great
stories, they are teaching us about which were the cardinal aspects of common
life to be specifically grasped by the child, by the adolescent, by the maiden,
the artisan, the warrior, the priest... And in this social communication
endeavors, life cycles do not appear as homogeneous linearly "timed".
Human lives are continuously looking ahead, anticipating ("Prometheus"
style) but simultaneously looking at the past and pondering on it
("Epimetheus" style). Although "presentists", we live
within an imaginary concoction built of mosaic pasts and futures,
"multi-timed" so to speak. The way to harmonize past, present, and
future (vital information) is one of the leit motifs of those great stories.<br />
<br />
And about cycles, so many of them can be found. At the scale of the
organism: cellular & tissular cycles, metabolic cycles, behavioral
cycles, ultradian cycles, circadian cycles, seasonal cycles, yearly cycles,
secular cycles, and many others related to social mores. Some of them can be
arranged in a sort of hierarchy or inclusivity, but there is a fundamental
diversity. That most of this orchestration of cycles does not require a
conscious effort does not mean that we should ignore them concerning the roots
of social communication. The cycles and stages (and "passages")
within a life cycle have an ominous presence. As i was saying, the
"potential" of each young life in ascend requires the reception of
wisdom (via social communication narratives) to integrate the own individual
path within the social matrix of the time.<br />
<br />
Thinking twice about the "potential" of life, it might be something
important to consider regarding any form or manifestation of life. Perhaps
better than the Principle of Conatus from Spinoza I was referring days ago (the
effort to self-maintain and flourish). Complex life has "potential"
to advance along some multi-time, multi-cycle developmental path in the most
complex of all environments: the social matrix. Is there some deep similarity
of this potential with the role that "potential" energy plays in our
book-keeping of energy conservation?<br />
<br />
Thanking the comments,<br />
Best--Pedro<br />
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<pre><font size="2"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font size="2"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">Fis mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font size="2"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font size="2"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/</a><st1:personname w:st="on" xmlns:w="#unknown2" xmlns:st1="#unknown1">fis</st1:personname><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></blockquote>
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<pre><font size="2"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">-- <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font size="2"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">-------------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font size="2"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">Pedro C. Marijuán<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font size="2"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font size="2"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font size="2"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"><a href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font size="2"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"><a href="http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/">http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font size="2"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">------------------------------------------------- <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
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<pre><font size="2"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">-- <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font size="2"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">-------------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font size="2"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">Pedro C. Marijuán<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font size="2"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font size="2"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font size="2"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"><a href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font size="2"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"><a href="http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/">http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font size="2"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">------------------------------------------------- <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></blockquote>
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