<META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:st1="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
<head>
<meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 11 (filtered medium)">
<!--[if !mso]>
<style>
v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
</style>
<![endif]--><o:SmartTagType
namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="PersonName"/>
<!--[if !mso]>
<style>
st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }
</style>
<![endif]-->
<style>
<!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:Helvetica;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";
panose-1:2 11 6 2 3 5 4 2 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:SourceSansPro;}
@font-face
{font-family:AdvPTimes;}
@font-face
{font-family:AdvPSSym;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0cm;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
pre
{margin:0cm;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Courier New";}
span.EmailStyle18
{mso-style-type:personal;
font-family:Arial;
color:navy;}
span.EmailStyle20
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:Arial;
color:navy;}
@page Section1
{size:595.3pt 841.9pt;
margin:70.85pt 70.85pt 70.85pt 70.85pt;}
div.Section1
{page:Section1;}
/* List Definitions */
@list l0
{mso-list-id:923688203;
mso-list-type:hybrid;
mso-list-template-ids:-277706610 67895311 67895321 67895323 67895311 67895321 67895323 67895311 67895321 67895323;}
@list l0:level1
{mso-level-tab-stop:36.0pt;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;}
@list l0:level2
{mso-level-tab-stop:72.0pt;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;}
@list l0:level3
{mso-level-tab-stop:108.0pt;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;}
@list l0:level4
{mso-level-tab-stop:144.0pt;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;}
@list l0:level5
{mso-level-tab-stop:180.0pt;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;}
@list l0:level6
{mso-level-tab-stop:216.0pt;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;}
@list l0:level7
{mso-level-tab-stop:252.0pt;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;}
@list l0:level8
{mso-level-tab-stop:288.0pt;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;}
@list l0:level9
{mso-level-tab-stop:324.0pt;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;}
@list l1
{mso-list-id:1987660761;
mso-list-template-ids:-291733148;}
ol
{margin-bottom:0cm;}
ul
{margin-bottom:0cm;}
-->
</style>
<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">
<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]-->
</head>
<body lang=FR link=blue vlink=blue style='word-wrap: break-word;-webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space'>
<div class=Section1>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<div link=blue vlink=blue style='word-wrap: break-word;-webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span
lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";
color:navy'>Thank you, Bruno, for this interesting response. May I please make
a few comments/questions in <i><span style='font-style:italic'>its </span></i>context,
with apologies if I have asked them before?<u1:p class=""></u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:18.0pt'><font size=2 color=navy
face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:
"Lucida Sans Unicode";color:navy'><u1:p class=""> </u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<ol style='margin-top:0cm' start=1 type=1>
<li class=MsoNormal style='color:navy;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo3'><font size=2
color=navy face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode"'>What is mechanism and are you a
mechanist?<u1:p class=""></u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></li>
<li class=MsoNormal style='color:navy;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo3'><font size=2
color=navy face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode"'>I do assume a physical reality,
which is obviously (to me) constituted by quantum entities/fields.<u1:p class=""></u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></li>
<li class=MsoNormal style='color:navy;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo3'><font size=2
color=navy face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode"'>With this assumption, is it
still premature to identify this physical reality with material reality?<u1:p class=""></u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></li>
<li class=MsoNormal style='color:navy;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo3'><font size=2
color=navy face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode"'>I do not make any assumptions
about a possible sub-stratum for this material reality, whose nature
remains to be understood, since I suggest it has no implications for the
world-as-we-know-it. Would you agree?<u1:p class=""></u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></li>
</ol>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span
lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";
color:navy'><u1:p class=""> </u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span
lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";
color:navy'>Best regards,<u1:p class=""></u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span
lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";
color:navy'><u1:p class=""> </u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face="Lucida Sans Unicode"><span
lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Sans Unicode";
color:navy'>Joseph<u1:p class=""></u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><u1:p class=""> </u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=3 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>
</span></font></div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
Fis [mailto:<st1:personname u4:st="on" class=""><st1:PersonName w:st="on">fis</st1:personname></st1:PersonName>-<a
href="mailto:bounces@listas.unizar.es">bounces@listas.unizar.es</a>] <b><span
style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Bruno Marchal<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> vendredi, 23 novembre 2018
12:13<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> Joseph Brenner<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> <st1:personname u4:st="on" class=""><st1:PersonName
w:st="on">fis</st1:personname></st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [Fis] Anticipatory
Systems--"Potential"</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<u1:p class=""></u1:p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><u1:p class=""> </u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Hi Joseph,<u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><u1:p class=""> </u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><u1:p class=""> </u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>On 21 Nov 2018, at 09:31, Joseph Brenner <<a
href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>> wrote:<u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><u1:p class=""> </u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=2 color=navy
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:navy'>Dear
Colleagues,<u5:p class=""></u5:p></span></font><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=2 color=navy
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:navy'><u5:p class=""> </u5:p></span></font><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=2 color=navy
face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;color:navy'>Pedro’s
approach, solidly anchored in biology, allows for progress in understanding.
Two comments on his ‘logic’: 1) I would not call the ‘concoction’ within which
we live imaginary. It is rather a set of real, dynamic mental processes, with
actual and potential, effectively causal components. 2) ‘Complex life’
instantiates potential (and kinetic) energy not only in a ‘book keeping role’.
Complex life is constituted by actual and potential energy evolving in cycles
and stages. Some myths (Epimetheus and Prometheus) correctly express this
duality and its evolution.<u5:p class=""></u5:p></span></font><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=2 color=navy
face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;color:navy'><u5:p class=""> </u5:p></span></font><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=2 color=navy
face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;color:navy'>Unfortunately,
there is another myth that I believe correctly models part of Jerry’s
proposals. It is that of Procrustes, an innkeeper who stretched or cut the legs
of his guests to make them fit the only available beds, until taken care of by
Heracles. You write: </span></font><span lang=EN-GB>A lot more
needs to be said about the intimate nature of relations among scientific narratives
before one can bind the logic of the perplex number system to the grammars
associated with mathematically structured anticipatory systems.</span><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<u5:p class=""></u5:p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=2 color=navy
face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;color:navy'><u5:p class=""> </u5:p></span></font><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=2 color=navy
face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;color:navy'>This
sentence needs to be parsed, given the concatenation of terms: in my opinion,
the purpose of understanding the relations among scientific narratives is to
understand real anticipatory systems, whether or not mathematically structured.
Perplex numbers are artificial numerological constructions with a corresponding
logic that may or may not apply to other artificial constructions, such as
abstract anticipatory systems, without dynamics. Narratives about real science
could be applied in principle to such questions, but the implication must be
avoided that such application would tell us anything about reality.<span
class=apple-converted-space> </span></span></font><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><u1:p class=""> </u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Which reality?<u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=2 color=navy
face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;color:navy'> </span></font><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=2 color=navy
face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;color:navy'>I
cannot accept any manipulation of numbers as being more than<span
class=apple-converted-space> </span><i><span style='font-style:italic'>a
posteriori.<span class=apple-converted-space> </span></span></i>This
applies also to Karl’s approach. </span></font><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><u1:p class=""> </u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>It applies to all Mechanist theory of mind. If Mechanism is true,
physics cannot be the fundamental science, and is recovered by the
anticipation-calculus (Plotinusand Plato’s bastard calculus) on all possible
computations going through my brain state. <u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><u1:p class=""> </u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=2 color=navy
face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;color:navy'>Also,
the concept of an ‘in-<i><span style='font-style:italic'>formed</span></i>’
number is an oxymoron, although I understand the attempt to ascribe
‘value-by-association’, so to speak. Numbers cannot accept ‘form’, or its
meaning; they exist, eternally, outside the world of form and change. </span></font><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><u1:p class=""> </u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Like a Block universe in general relativity. Time is an indexical: it
is a construction of the mind of the relative numbers. <u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><u1:p class=""> </u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=2 color=navy
face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;color:navy'>I
thus stress the importance of Pedro’s statement: processes do not go<span
class=apple-converted-space> </span></span></font><span lang=EN-GB>smoothly
upwards from the quantum level.</span><span class=apple-converted-space><font
size=2 color=navy><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;color:navy'> </span></font></span><font
size=2 color=navy><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;color:navy'>As one
proceeds to higher levels of reality, there are discontinuities and different
laws apply. </span></font><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><u1:p class=""> </u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>OK. But that is the case in arithmetic when seen from inside.<u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><u1:p class=""> </u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=2 color=navy
face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;color:navy'>One
only notes the presence of some isomorphisms, such as the failure of some
macroscopic process equations to commute or distribute. Finally, I, at least,
will resist any attempts to let in, through the back door, anti-scientific
concepts of quantum processes in mind and cognition.</span></font><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><u1:p class=""> </u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:12.0pt'>I follow you on this. </span>With mechanism, we
explain the quantum from the mathematics of what a machine can say about the
computations going through her state. The quantum aspect of nature is explained
by elementary arithmetic, with definitions which can be motivated through
thought experience, or taken from Plato (they are quite standard one).<u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><u1:p class=""> </u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>I guess you assume non-mechanism, which makes then coherent to invoke
some ontological “physical reality”. But as this is what I want to explain, I
prefer to avoid any ontological commitment, as we have to do when doing
metaphysics/theology with the scientific attitude. For the application, that is
a different matter, but I take the quantum and the physical in general as
something that we have to explain (as this follows from the mechanist
assumption). It is testable and tested, and up to now, this works well, so to
invoke a material reality is at the least premature, I think.<u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><u1:p class=""> </u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>All the best,<u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><u1:p class=""> </u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Bruno<u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><u1:p class=""> </u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><u1:p class=""> </u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<u1:p class=""></u1:p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=2 color=navy
face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;color:navy'><u5:p class=""></u5:p><u5:p class=""> </u5:p></span></font><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=2 color=navy
face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;color:navy'>Best
wishes,<u5:p class=""></u5:p></span></font><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=2 color=navy
face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;color:navy'><u5:p class=""> </u5:p></span></font><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=2 color=navy
face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;color:navy'>Joseph<u5:p class=""></u5:p></span></font><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center;background:white'><font
size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=3 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>
</span></font></div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><span
class=apple-converted-space><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> </span></font></span><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>Fis
[<a href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es">mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es</a>]<span
class=apple-converted-space> </span><b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On
Behalf Of<span class=apple-converted-space> </span></span></b>Pedro C.
Marijuan<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b><span
class=apple-converted-space> </span>mardi, 20 novembre 2018 21:15<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b><span
class=apple-converted-space> <st1:personname u4:st="on" class=""></span><st1:PersonName
w:st="on">fis</st1:personname></st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b><span
class=apple-converted-space> </span>Jerry LR Chandler<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b><span
class=apple-converted-space> </span>Re: [Fis] Anticipatory Systems--"Potential"</span></font><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<u5:p class=""></u5:p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
lang=EN-GB style='font-size:12.0pt'><u5:p class=""> </u5:p></span><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Dear Jerry and FIS colleagues,<br>
<br>
I wonder how big or how clever your Chemostat apparatus should be. There are
thousands of metabolic intermediates in an organism, and there are another
thousands of diversified signals. And we have in the order of 30 billion cells
(trillions in the US system). Plus around 100 trillion of bacterial cells in
the microbiome. "We" are the emergence all of that molecular
diversity. It does not mean that life exactly "controls" all the details
of the mega-information of this whole system... How that control is organized,
the principles of biological information, so to speak, become another great
question, but probably very different from the idea of mass control in a
chemostat.<span class=apple-converted-space> </span></span></font><span
lang=EN-GB>In any case, the way you have argued it, seemingly smoothly going
upwards from the quantum level, is beyond of what I consider feasible.<span
class=apple-converted-space> </span></span>Scientific overstretching of a
reasonable paradigm perhaps.<br>
<br>
Socially, indeed, we do not try to communicate around by following a colossal
strategy of reducing happenstances to their quantum description; neither to the
kind of meta-languages you mention. In general, social communication revolves
around narratives. They are not free-wheeling constructions (at least referring
to the "great stories" of all epochs) but optimized tools to guide
individuals in the advancement of their lives, in the achievement of their
"potential". Looking at the historical evolution of those great
stories, they are teaching us about which were the cardinal aspects of common
life to be specifically grasped by the child, by the adolescent, by the maiden,
the artisan, the warrior, the priest... And in this social communication
endeavors, life cycles do not appear as homogeneous linearly "timed".
Human lives are continuously looking ahead, anticipating
("Prometheus" style) but simultaneously looking at the past and
pondering on it ("Epimetheus" style). Although
"presentists", we live within an imaginary concoction built of mosaic
pasts and futures, "multi-timed" so to speak. The way to harmonize
past, present, and future (vital information) is one of the leit motifs of
those great stories.<br>
<br>
And about cycles, so many of them can be found. At the scale of the
organism: cellular & tissular cycles, metabolic cycles, behavioral
cycles, ultradian cycles, circadian cycles, seasonal cycles, yearly cycles,
secular cycles, and many others related to social mores. Some of them can be
arranged in a sort of hierarchy or inclusivity, but there is a fundamental
diversity. That most of this orchestration of cycles does not require a
conscious effort does not mean that we should ignore them concerning the roots
of social communication. The cycles and stages (and "passages")
within a life cycle have an ominous presence. As i was saying, the
"potential" of each young life in ascend requires the reception of
wisdom (via social communication narratives) to integrate the own individual
path within the social matrix of the time.<br>
<br>
Thinking twice about the "potential" of life, it might be something
important to consider regarding any form or manifestation of life. Perhaps
better than the Principle of Conatus from Spinoza I was referring days ago (the
effort to self-maintain and flourish). Complex life has "potential"
to advance along some multi-time, multi-cycle developmental path in the most
complex of all environments: the social matrix. Is there some deep similarity
of this potential with the role that "potential" energy plays in our
book-keeping of energy conservation?<br>
<br>
Thanking the comments,<br>
Best--Pedro<br>
<br>
<br>
El 19/11/2018 a las 1:55, Jerry LR Chandler escribió:<u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<u5:p class=""></u5:p>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite
cite="mid:C49202D2-81D9-41CA-9571-D70B75233019@icloud.com">
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Pedro, List:<span class=apple-converted-space> <u5:p class=""></u5:p></span><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><u5:p class=""> </u5:p><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>To put this in context, see my extensive post of
Oct 27, which is re-posted below. <u5:p class=""></u5:p><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>On Oct 31, 2018, at 3:53 PM, Pedro C. Marijuan <<a
href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" moz-do-not-send=true>pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>>
wrote:<u5:p class=""></u5:p><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><u5:p class=""> </u5:p><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div><span style='text-align:start;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;float:none;
word-spacing:0px'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=1 face=Helvetica><span
style='background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial'><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;background:white'>Also I would
like to be able to respond to other demands from Jerry, but here is my
counter-demand: could you adventure tools to formally capture such a
multi-time, multi-rhythm being as a life-cycle in progress?</span></span></font><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</span><u5:p class=""></u5:p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><u5:p class=""> </u5:p><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Here I merely respond to Pedro’s counter demand.<u5:p class=""></u5:p><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><u5:p class=""> </u5:p><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>The formal capture of such “multi-time, multi-rhythm
being as a life cycle in process” is captured by time sequences of measurements
on specific compositions of the specific species of life. The wide-spread
experimentation with Chemostats is one such example. The Chemostat apparatus
establishes and maintains a steady state rate of reproduction with constant
input flows of nutrients and constant outflow of cells and waste and unused
nutrients. (see <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemostat"
moz-do-not-send=true>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemostat</a><u5:p class=""></u5:p><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>A chemostat allows unbounded number of measurements of
time series of unbounded number of cellular components by merely changing flow
rates and other constraining parameters.<u5:p class=""></u5:p><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><u5:p class=""> </u5:p><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>(I really do not understand the distinction between
the terms "multi-time" and "multi-rhythm" since
multi-rhythm infers multi-time. Perhaps it would be more appropriate to
speak of the multiplicity of biochemical cycles that are necessary for the
chemical system to reproduce itself in the sense that one cell begets two cells
in uni-cellular organisms or, similarly, in higher organisms with orgasms, two
individuals reproduce by generating a third individual with directly comparable
cycles.)<u5:p class=""></u5:p><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><u5:p class=""> </u5:p><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>More directly to the issues of numbers and information
theory, the remaining challenges are not a consequence of “errors” of thinking
in the basic physics of matter. Rather, a central unsolved problem is
closely associated with time and material cycles, cycles within material
cycles, cycles within cycles within material cycles. Quantum theory
(QED) provides the basic mathematics to initiate cycles within cycles (nuclear
spin surrounded by electron spin). The challenge is to generate
from QED mathematics, the mathematics of cycles within cycles with cycles
describing molecules, and higher cycles of natural sorts and kinds. <u5:p class=""></u5:p><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <u5:p class=""></u5:p><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> This can be deictic with a partition of the
complete lexis of all possible narratives. The formal status should
relate to Tarski’s “meta-languages”. see “The Primary Logic” by Michel
Malatesta for a detailed description of the relationships between the lexus of
individual disciplines. <u5:p class=""></u5:p><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><u5:p class=""> </u5:p><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>The following quote from Cerruti (</span></font><font
size=1 color="#333333" face=SourceSansPro><span style='background-position:
initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial'><span style='font-size:7.0pt;
font-family:SourceSansPro;color:#333333;background:white'>Foundations of
Chemistry · August 2017) </span></span></font><span style='background:
white'><span style='background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial'>seems
to illuminate certain aspects of the problem:</span></span><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<u5:p class=""></u5:p>
<div>
<div title="Page 3">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=1 face=AdvPTimes><span
style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:AdvPTimes'>In a sense, the very same title
of the foundational work by Rudolf Carnap (Der logische Aufbau der</span></font><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<u5:p class=""></u5:p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:10.5pt'><u5:p class=""> </u5:p></span></font><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<span id="cid:image002.gif@01D4817C.EC15DA90">
<div title="Page 4">
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:10.5pt'><image002.gif></span></font><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<u5:p class=""></u5:p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=1 face=AdvPTimes><span
style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:AdvPTimes'>Welt,<span
class=apple-converted-space> </span><font color=blue><span
style='color:blue'>1928</span></font>) expresses very clearly the cognitive
purposes of the proponents of this viewpoint. The semantic view shifts the
philosopher’s attention from the logical analysis of theories towards an
investigation based on mathematical models. A relevant supporter of this
standpoint is the Dutch philosopher Bas van Fraassen (mentioned by Fortin and
coauthors). In his 1980 essential work, van Fraassen clearly speaks of
‘‘failure of the syntactic approach’’ and strongly claims that: ‘‘the notions
of truth and model belong to semantics’’ (van Fraassen<span
class=apple-converted-space> </span><font color=blue><span
style='color:blue'>1980</span></font>, pp. 43 and 53). According to the Dutch
philosopher ‘‘Any structure which satisfies the axioms of a theory [</span></font><font
size=1 face=AdvPSSym><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:AdvPSSym'>...</span></font><font
size=1 face=AdvPTimes><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:AdvPTimes'>] is
called a model of that theory’’, and ‘‘The models occupy centre stage’’. Van
Fraassen’s models are to be intended in the strictly mathematical sense of the
theory of models. For example, talking about the Bohr’s atomic model, he
distances himself from this use of the term: ‘‘in the scientists’ use, ‘model’
denotes what I would call a model-type’’ (van Fraassen<span
class=apple-converted-space> </span><font color=blue><span
style='color:blue'>1980</span></font>, p. 44). In synthesis: ‘‘For the
Syntactic View, what is not (or cannot be) reconstructed axiomatically is not
theoretical, while for the Semantic View, what is not (or cannot be) modeled
mathematically is not theoretical’’. Based on this sharp contrast, it is not
surprising that the supporters of the syntactic versus semantic views have
often chosen a ‘‘strategy of combat’’ within the philosophical debate (Winther<span
class=apple-converted-space> </span><font color=blue><span
style='color:blue'>2015</span></font>). </span></font><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span><u5:p class=""></u5:p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>
I’ll stop here for now. A lot more needs to be said about the intimate
nature of relations among scientific narrative before one can bind the logic of
the perplex number system to the grammars associated with mathematically
structured anticipatory systems.<u5:p class=""></u5:p><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><u5:p class=""> </u5:p><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Cheers<u5:p class=""></u5:p><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><u5:p class=""> </u5:p><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>jerry<u5:p class=""></u5:p><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><u5:p class=""> </u5:p><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><u5:p class=""> </u5:p><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><u5:p class=""> </u5:p><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><u5:p class=""> </u5:p><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><u5:p class=""> </u5:p><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>On Oct 21, 2018, at 1:58 PM, Pedro C. Marijuan <<a
href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" moz-do-not-send=true>pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>>
wrote:<u5:p class=""></u5:p><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><u5:p class=""> </u5:p><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Dear FIS Collegues,<br>
<br>
To Jerry: Thanks for the appreciation. I cannot object the logico-formal path
you propose, but is it feasible?<u5:p class=""></u5:p><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><u5:p class=""> </u5:p><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Since it already operates in nature, does this make
these paths mathematically infeasible?<u5:p class=""></u5:p><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><u5:p class=""> </u5:p><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>It seems that nature does what nature does, without
questioning it’s feasibility!<u5:p class=""></u5:p><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><u5:p class=""> </u5:p><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Several disciplines already have made the logic-formal
path of molecular biology the critical basis of practice - the leading
practitioners of personalized medicine, for example. The readers of this
list have the opportunity to learn the foundation of modern biomedical
information theory, rather than simply deny its existence! Meanwhile, the
high school students of today are learning the intricacies of the several
coding systems necessary to represent natural information transfer.<u5:p class=""></u5:p><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><u5:p class=""> </u5:p><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite>
<div>
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>I really doubt that a new way of thinking could emerge
by logically bridging those different disciplines; the magnitude is more than
enormous.<u5:p class=""></u5:p><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><u5:p class=""> </u5:p><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Your strange fears are unwarranted, in my opinion.<u5:p class=""></u5:p><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<u1:p class=""></u1:p>
<div><u5:p class=""></u5:p>
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>My argument is that the most pressing problems in the
informational arena (susceptible of being "bridged") refer to
cell-cycle logics of signaling, and human life advancement and social
communication strategies.<u5:p class=""></u5:p><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Hmmmm…<u5:p class=""></u5:p><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>It seems to me that your analysis could be stronger if
you separate the grounding of information transmission in various narrative
categories. Pragmatic information transportation is grounded in composed
organizations. Naturally composed organizations are not merely
mathematical metaphysics, they are real functional identities. <u5:p class=""></u5:p><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>At the root of organized systems are the codes of
representations. Quantum theory forms the dynamics. The informed numbers of
nature form the transmission agents for information transfer and information
re-formations (reactive compositions that change the scale of being).
Organisms reproduce information, not merely send information from point A
to point B. <u5:p class=""></u5:p><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>The informed numbers of living systems are not merely
inert symbols of meta-physical mathematics (phenomenology?), but informed numbers
have attributes. The attributes of informed numbers are expressible in
several codes (symbol systems), including the electrical symbols of quantum
theory.<u5:p class=""></u5:p><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><u5:p class=""> </u5:p><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<u1:p class=""></u1:p>
<div><u5:p class=""></u5:p>
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Narratives are not the sceintific subject per se, but
only in their tight relationship with the advancement of our own individual
lives. Tales, comedies, tragedies, operas, novels, lullabies, media, today
propaganda ... are natural units with different calibers that are useful for
different life situations. In all cases the universal reference is the
advancement of the life course.<u5:p class=""></u5:p><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><u5:p class=""> </u5:p><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Very interesting sentences.<u5:p class=""></u5:p><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>But, without a definition of what is meant by “natural
units”, it is unclear to me what the logical content is. <u5:p class=""></u5:p><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>For example, what are the "natural units” of
psychology? <u5:p class=""></u5:p><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><u5:p class=""> </u5:p><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>In other words, if I may ask, is the intent to assert
some sort of universal extension?<u5:p class=""></u5:p><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>If this conjecture is true, I would appreciate a hint
or two about the logical base of the extension. Are you seeking to imply
Tarski’s meta-languages?<u5:p class=""></u5:p><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<u1:p class=""></u1:p>
<div><u5:p class=""></u5:p>
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Stories provide us with a unique mirror to the inner
dynamics of human nature. <u5:p class=""></u5:p><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><u5:p class=""> </u5:p><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Is this sentence ambiguous? <u5:p class=""></u5:p><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>The the term “mirror” merely a metaphor to remove
reality from the dynamics of the human?<u5:p class=""></u5:p><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Or, is it the same sort of “mirror” used in Quantum
theory to distinguish the asymmetry of optical isomers that are essential for
generating human dynamics?<u5:p class=""></u5:p><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>
While I appreciate the attempts to create a useful descriptive language for
biological information theory, it seems to me that a foundation for scientific
information theory must be a quantitive theory with logical terms that
represent mathematical terms. The concept of informed numbers provide
such a basis. Elsewhere, I have used the term “organic mathematics” to
represent the relation logics of informed numbers.<u5:p class=""></u5:p><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><u5:p class=""> </u5:p><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Cheers<u5:p class=""></u5:p><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><u5:p class=""> </u5:p><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Jerry<u5:p class=""></u5:p><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><u5:p class=""> </u5:p><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
background:white'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><u5:p class=""> </u5:p><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<pre style='background:white' cols=72><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>-- <u5:p class=""></u5:p><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
style='background:white'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>-------------------------------------------------<u5:p class=""></u5:p><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
style='background:white'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>Pedro C. Marijuán<u5:p class=""></u5:p><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
style='background:white'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group<u5:p class=""></u5:p><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
style='background:white'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><u5:p class=""> </u5:p><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
style='background:white'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><a href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a><u5:p class=""></u5:p><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
style='background:white'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><a href="http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/">http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/</a><u5:p class=""></u5:p><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
style='background:white'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>------------------------------------------------- <u5:p class=""></u5:p><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><u5:p class="">
<div id=DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<u5:p class=""></u5:p>
<table class=MsoNormalTable border=1 cellspacing=3 cellpadding=0
style='border:none;border-top:solid #D3D4DE 1.0pt'>
<tr>
<td width=46 style='width:27.5pt;border:none;padding:9.0pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><a
href="https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient"
target="_blank"><span style='text-decoration:none'><img border=0 width=46
height=29 id="_x0000_i1026"
src="https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange-animated-no-repeat-v1.gif"
class=""></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
</td>
<u1:p class=""></u1:p>
<td width=392 style='width:235.0pt;border:none;padding:8.5pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='line-height:9.0pt'><font size=1 color="#41424e"
face=Arial><span style='font-size:6.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#41424E'>Libre
de virus.<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><a
href="https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient"
target="_blank"><font color="#4453ea"><span style='color:#4453EA'>www.avast.com</span></font></a><u5:p class=""></u5:p></span></font><u1:p class=""></u1:p><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</td>
</tr>
</table>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><a
href="x-msg://59/#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2" width=1 height=1></a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<u1:p class=""></u1:p>
<div><u5:p class=""></u5:p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=1 face=Helvetica><span style='font-size:6.0pt;
font-family:Helvetica;background:white'><span style='font-variant-caps: normal;
text-align:start;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;float:none;word-spacing:0px'>_______________________________________________</span></span></font><font
size=1 face=Helvetica><span style='font-size:6.0pt;font-family:Helvetica'><br
style='font-variant-caps: normal;text-align:start;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
word-spacing:0px'>
<span style='background:white'><span style='font-variant-caps: normal;
text-align:start;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;float:none;word-spacing:0px'>Fis
mailing list</span></span><br style='font-variant-caps: normal;text-align:start;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px'>
<span style='background:white'><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es"><span
style='font-variant-caps: normal;text-align:start;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
float:none;word-spacing:0px'>Fis@listas.unizar.es</span></a></span></span></font><font
size=1 face=Helvetica><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Helvetica'><br
style='font-variant-caps: normal;text-align:start;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
word-spacing:0px'>
<span style='background:white'><a
href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis"><span
style='font-variant-caps: normal;text-align:start;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
float:none;word-spacing:0px'>http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</span></a></span></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<u1:p class=""></u1:p></div>
</div>
</div>
</u5:p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><u1:p class=""> </u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</u1:smarttagtype>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>