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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Dear FISers,<br>
      <br>
      My only addition to the below would be a further reflection on
      what "potential" could mean when applied to the life course of a
      human individual or other complex living. If we go too fast in the
      connection with physics, we may leave aside some very interesting
      aspects, precisely the deep connection with the humanities. It is
      an intriguing coincidence that perhaps the two best works on
      narratives (Booker 2004; Bonnet, 2006; that I have already
      mentioned) are both written... from the perspective of Jungian
      psychology/psychiatry. Terms such as archetypes, unconscious,
      complexes, repression, initiation, regression, shadow, rebirth,
      etc.  appear not always with a clear necessity. I mean their
      profound analysis of narratives (the former more concerned with
      the literary, the latter with the filmic) probably could be
      crafted in a more neutral conceptualization. I do not consider
      unscientific the Jungian stance, but not quite scientific either.
      Mobilizing the unconscious is one of the crucial points to handle
      by the effective narrative according to these authors. But what is
      the unconscious? It is not far more accurate considering the
      brain-rest activation of contemporary neuroscience (Default Mode
      Network) as taking charge of that involuntary emergence of
      impressions and deep memories? And, similarly, does not
      "potential" refer to cognitive/anticipatory capabilities that
      somehow detect higher fitness possibilities along some behavioral
      paths than others, and then conduce to the long term realization
      and flourishing of a life cycle? The potential belongs, say, to
      the "processual" not to the physical. In my view, the general
      challenge is to re-explain narratives, the fundamental commodity
      of social communication, in a more advanced conceptualization,
      beyond the Jungian, the Shannonian, or the corrosive
      fake-correctedness  of our times... It can be done. The
      neuroscientific approach would be badly needed to recreate the
      terminology and the fundamental ideas.<br>
      <br>
      Best regards<br>
      --Pedro <br>
      <br>
       El 21/11/2018 a las 9:31, Joseph Brenner escribió:<br>
    </div>
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        <p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Times New Roman"
            color="navy"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:navy">Dear
              Colleagues,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Times New Roman"
            color="navy"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:navy"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Times New Roman"
            color="navy"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:navy"
              lang="EN-GB">Pedro’s approach, solidly
              anchored in biology, allows for progress in understanding.
              Two comments on his ‘logic’:
              1) I would not call the ‘concoction’ within which we live
              imaginary. It is rather a set of real, dynamic mental
              processes, with actual
              and potential, effectively causal components. 2) ‘Complex
              life’
              instantiates potential (and kinetic) energy not only in a
              ‘book keeping
              role’. Complex life is constituted by actual and potential
              energy evolving
              in cycles and stages. Some myths (Epimetheus and
              Prometheus) correctly express
              this duality and its evolution.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Times New Roman"
            color="navy"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:navy"
              lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Times New Roman"
            color="navy"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:navy"
              lang="EN-GB">Unfortunately, there is another
              myth that I believe correctly models part of Jerry’s
              proposals. It is
              that of Procrustes, an innkeeper who stretched or cut the
              legs of his guests to
              make them fit the only available beds, until taken care of
              by Heracles. You
              write:   </span></font><span lang="EN-GB">A lot more needs
            to be said about the
            intimate nature of relations among scientific narratives
            before one can bind
            the logic of the perplex number system to the grammars
            associated with
            mathematically structured anticipatory systems.</span><font
            size="2" color="navy"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt;color:navy" lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Times New Roman"
            color="navy"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:navy"
              lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Times New Roman"
            color="navy"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:navy"
              lang="EN-GB">This sentence needs to be
              parsed, given the concatenation of terms: in my opinion,
              the purpose of
              understanding the relations among scientific narratives is
              to understand real anticipatory
              systems, whether or not mathematically structured. Perplex
              numbers are
              artificial numerological constructions with a
              corresponding logic that may or
              may not apply to other artificial constructions, such as
              abstract anticipatory
              systems, without dynamics. Narratives about real science
              could be applied in
              principle to such questions, but the implication must be
              avoided that such
              application would tell us anything about reality. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Times New Roman"
            color="navy"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:navy"
              lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Times New Roman"
            color="navy"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:navy"
              lang="EN-GB">I cannot accept any manipulation
              of numbers as being more than <i><span
                  style="font-style:italic">a posteriori. </span></i>This
              applies also to Karl’s approach. Also, the concept of an
              ‘in-<i><span style="font-style:italic">formed</span></i>’
              number is an oxymoron,
              although I understand the attempt to ascribe
              ‘value-by-association’,
              so to speak. Numbers cannot accept ‘form’, or its meaning;
              they
              exist, eternally, outside the world of form and change.  <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Times New Roman"
            color="navy"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:navy"
              lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Times New Roman"
            color="navy"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:navy"
              lang="EN-GB">I thus stress the importance of
              Pedro’s statement:  processes do not go </span></font><span
            lang="EN-GB">smoothly
            upwards from the quantum level.</span><font size="2"
            color="navy"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:navy"
              lang="EN-GB"> As one proceeds to higher levels of reality,
              there are discontinuities and different laws apply. One
              only notes the presence
              of some isomorphisms, such as the failure of some
              macroscopic process equations
              to commute or distribute. Finally, I, at least, will
              resist any attempts to let
              in, through the back door, anti-scientific concepts of
              quantum processes in
              mind and cognition.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Times New Roman"
            color="navy"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:navy"
              lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Times New Roman"
            color="navy"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:navy"
              lang="EN-GB">Best wishes,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Times New Roman"
            color="navy"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:navy"
              lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Times New Roman"
            color="navy"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:navy"
              lang="EN-GB">Joseph<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
        <div>
          <div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:center"
            align="center"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"
              color="black"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;
                color:windowtext" lang="EN-US">
                <hr tabindex="-1" size="3" align="center" width="100%">
              </span></font></div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"
                color="black"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:windowtext;font-weight:bold"
                  lang="EN-US">From:</span></font></b><font size="2"
              face="Tahoma" color="black"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;
                font-family:Tahoma;color:windowtext" lang="EN-US"> Fis
                [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es">mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es</a>]
                <b><span style="font-weight:bold">On Behalf Of </span></b>Pedro
                C. Marijuan<br>
                <b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b>
                mardi, 20 novembre 2018
                21:15<br>
                <b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> fis<br>
                <b><span style="font-weight:bold">Cc:</span></b> Jerry
                LR Chandler<br>
                <b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b>
                Re: [Fis] Anticipatory
                Systems--"Potential"</span></font><font color="black"><span
                style="color:windowtext" lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"
            color="black"><span style="font-size:12.0pt" lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"
              color="black"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">Dear Jerry
                and FIS colleagues,<br>
                <br>
                I wonder how big or how clever your Chemostat apparatus
                should be. There are
                thousands of metabolic intermediates in an organism, and
                there are another
                thousands of diversified signals. And we have in the
                order of 30 billion cells
                (trillions in the US system). Plus around 100 trillion
                of bacterial cells in
                the microbiome. "We" are the emergence all of that
                molecular
                diversity. It does not mean that life exactly "controls"
                all the
                details of the mega-information of this whole system...
                How that control is
                organized, the principles of biological information, so
                to speak, become
                another great question, but probably very different from
                the idea of mass
                control in a chemostat. </span></font><span
              lang="EN-GB">In any case, the way you
              have argued it, seemingly smoothly going upwards from the
              quantum level, is
              beyond of what I consider feasible. </span>Scientific
            overstretching of a
            reasonable paradigm perhaps.<br>
            <br>
            Socially, indeed, we do not try to communicate around by
            following a colossal
            strategy of reducing happenstances to their quantum
            description; neither to the
            kind of meta-languages you mention. In general, social
            communication revolves
            around narratives. They are not free-wheeling constructions
            (at least referring
            to the "great stories" of all epochs) but optimized tools to
            guide
            individuals in the advancement of their lives, in the
            achievement of their
            "potential". Looking at the historical evolution of those
            great
            stories, they are teaching us about which were the cardinal
            aspects of common
            life to be specifically grasped by the child, by the
            adolescent, by the maiden,
            the artisan, the warrior, the priest... And in this social
            communication
            endeavors, life cycles do not appear as homogeneous linearly
            "timed".
            Human lives are continuously looking ahead, anticipating
            ("Prometheus" style) but simultaneously looking at the past
            and
            pondering on it ("Epimetheus" style). Although
            "presentists", we live within an imaginary concoction built
            of mosaic
            pasts and futures, "multi-timed" so to speak. The way to
            harmonize
            past, present, and future (vital information) is one of the
            leit motifs of
            those great stories.<br>
            <br>
            And about cycles, so many of them can be found. At the scale
            of the
            organism:  cellular & tissular cycles, metabolic cycles,
            behavioral
            cycles, ultradian cycles, circadian cycles, seasonal cycles,
            yearly cycles,
            secular cycles, and many others related to social mores.
            Some of them can be
            arranged in a sort of hierarchy or inclusivity, but there is
            a fundamental
            diversity. That most of this orchestration of cycles does
            not require a
            conscious effort does not mean that we should ignore them
            concerning the roots
            of social communication. The cycles and stages (and
            "passages")
            within a life cycle have an ominous presence. As i was
            saying, the
            "potential" of each young life in ascend requires the
            reception of
            wisdom (via social communication narratives) to integrate
            the own individual
            path within the social matrix of the time.<br>
            <br>
            Thinking twice about the "potential" of life, it might be
            something
            important to consider regarding any form or manifestation of
            life. Perhaps
            better than the Principle of Conatus from Spinoza I was
            referring days ago (the
            effort to self-maintain and flourish). Complex life has
            "potential"
            to advance along some multi-time, multi-cycle developmental
            path in the most
            complex of all environments: the social matrix. Is there
            some deep similarity
            of this potential with the role that "potential" energy
            plays in our
            book-keeping of energy conservation?<br>
            <br>
            Thanking the comments,<br>
            Best--Pedro<br>
             
            <br>
          </p>
        </div>
      </div>
      <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
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</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
-------------------------------------------------
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group

<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/">http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/</a>
------------------------------------------------- </pre>
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      <td style="width: 55px; padding-top: 18px;"><a href="https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient" target="_blank"><img src="https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange-animated-no-repeat-v1.gif" alt="" width="46" height="29" style="width: 46px; height: 29px;" /></a></td>
                <td style="width: 470px; padding-top: 17px; color: #41424e; font-size: 13px; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; line-height: 18px;">Libre de virus. <a href="https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient" target="_blank" style="color: #4453ea;">www.avast.com</a>           </td>
        </tr>
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