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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Dear Jerry and FIS colleagues,<br>
<br>
I wonder how big or how clever your Chemostat apparatus should be.
There are thousands of metabolic intermediates in an organism, and
there are another thousands of diversified signals. And we have in
the order of 30 billion cells (trillions in the US system). Plus
around 100 trillion of bacterial cells in the microbiome. "We" are
the emergence all of that molecular diversity. It does not mean
that life exactly "controls" all the details of the
mega-information of this whole system... How that control is
organized, the principles of biological information, so to speak,
become another great question, but probably very different from
the idea of mass control in a chemostat. In any case, the way you
have argumented it, seemingly smoothly going upwards from the
quantum level, is beyond of what I consider feasible. Scientific
overstretching of a reasonable paradigm perhaps.<br>
<br>
Socially, indeed, we do not try to communicate around by following
a colossal strategy of reducing happenstances to their quantum
description; neither to the kind of meta-languages you mention. In
general, social communication revolves around narratives. They are
not free-wheeling constructions (at least referring to the "great
stories" of all epochs) but optimized tools to guide individuals
in the advancement of their lives, in the achievement of their
"potential". Looking at the historical evolution of those great
stories, they are teaching us about which were the cardinal
aspects of common life to be specifically grasped by the child, by
the adolescent, by the maiden, the artisan, the warrior, the
priest... And in this social communication endeavors, life cycles
do not appear as homogeneous linearly "timed". Human lives are
continuously looking ahead, anticipating ("Prometheus" style) but
simultaneously looking at the past and pondering on it
("Epimetheus" style). Although "presentists", we live within an
imaginary concoction built of mosaic pasts and futures,
"multi-timed" so to speak. The way to harmonize past, present, and
future (vital information) is one of the leit motifs of those
great stories.<br>
<br>
And about cycles, so many of them can be found. At the scale of
the organism: cellular & tissular cycles, metabolic cycles,
behavioral cycles, ultradian cycles, circadian cycles, seasonal
cycles, yearly cycles, secular cycles, and many others related to
social mores. Some of them can be arranged in a sort of hierarchy
or inclusivity, but there is a fundamental diversity. That most of
this orchestration of cycles does not require a conscious effort
does not mean that we should ignore them concerning the roots of
social communication. The cycles and stages (and "passages")
within a life cycle have an ominous presence. As i was saying, the
"potential" of each young life in ascend requires the reception of
wisdom (via social communication narratives) to integrate the own
individual path within the social matrix of the time.<br>
<br>
Thinking twice about the "potential" of life, it might be
something important to consider regarding any form or
manifestation of life. Perhaps better than the Principle of
Conatus from Spinoza I was referring days ago (the effort to
self-maintain and flourish). Complex life has "potential" to
advance along some multi-time, multi-cycle developmental path in
the most complex of all environments: the social matrix. Is there
some deep similarity of this potential with the role that
"potential" energy plays in our book-keeping of energy
conservation?<br>
<br>
Thanking the comments,<br>
Best--Pedro<br>
<br>
<br>
El 19/11/2018 a las 1:55, Jerry LR Chandler escribió:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:C49202D2-81D9-41CA-9571-D70B75233019@icloud.com">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
Pedro, List:
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">To put this in context, see my extensive post of
Oct 27, which is re-posted below. <br class="">
<div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Oct 31, 2018, at 3:53 PM, Pedro C. Marijuan
<<a href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica;
font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline
!important;" class="">Also I would like to be able to
respond to other demands from Jerry, but here is my
counter-demand: could you adventure tools to formally
capture such a multi-time, multi-rhythm being as a
life-cycle in progress?</span><br style="font-family:
Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal;
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans:
auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"
class="">
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br class="">
</div>
Here I merely respond to Pedro’s counter demand.</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>The formal capture of such “multi-time, multi-rhythm being
as a life cycle in process” is captured by time sequences of
measurements on specific compositions of the specific species
of life. The wide-spread experimentation with Chemostats is
one such example. The Chemostat apparatus establishes and
maintains a steady state rate of reproduction with constant
input flows of nutrients and constant outflow of cells and
waste and unused nutrients. (see <a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemostat" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemostat</a></div>
<div>A chemostat allows unbounded number of measurements of time
series of unbounded number of cellular components by merely
changing flow rates and other constraining parameters.</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>(I really do not understand the distinction between the
terms "multi-time" and "multi-rhythm" since multi-rhythm
infers multi-time. Perhaps it would be more appropriate to
speak of the multiplicity of biochemical cycles that are
necessary for the chemical system to reproduce itself in the
sense that one cell begets two cells in uni-cellular organisms
or, similarly, in higher organisms with orgasms, two
individuals reproduce by generating a third individual with
directly comparable cycles.)</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>More directly to the issues of numbers and information
theory, the remaining challenges are not a consequence of
“errors” of thinking in the basic physics of matter. Rather,
a central unsolved problem is closely associated with time and
material cycles, cycles within material cycles, cycles within
cycles within material cycles. Quantum theory (QED) provides
the basic mathematics to initiate cycles within cycles
(nuclear spin surrounded by electron spin). The challenge is
to generate from QED mathematics, the mathematics of cycles
within cycles with cycles describing molecules, and higher
cycles of natural sorts and kinds. </div>
<div> </div>
<div> This can be deictic with a partition of the complete lexis
of all possible narratives. The formal status should relate
to Tarski’s “meta-languages”. see “The Primary Logic” by
Michel Malatesta for a detailed description of the
relationships between the lexus of individual disciplines. </div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>The following quote from Cerruti (<span style="color:
rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: SourceSansPro; font-size: 7pt;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><span
style="font-size: 14px;" class="">Foundations of Chemistry
· August 2017</span>) </span><span
style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">seems
to illuminate certain aspects of the problem:</span></div>
<div>
<div class="page" title="Page 3">
<div class="layoutArea">
<div class="column">
<p style="font-size: 21px;" class=""><span
style="font-size: 15px; font-family: AdvPTimes;"
class="">In a sense,
the very same title of the foundational work by
Rudolf Carnap (Der logische Aufbau der</span></p>
<div style="font-size: 21px;" class=""><br class="">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="page" title="Page 4" style="font-size: 21px;"> <img
alt="page4image1160" apple-inline="yes"
id="05ED26E3-FA91-4193-8B5B-FBC67DCFB058"
apple-width="yes" apple-height="yes"
src="cid:part3.6E3927EE.E43DB43C@aragon.es" class=""
height="0" width="345">
<div class="layoutArea">
<div class="column">
<p class=""><span style="font-size: 15px; font-family:
AdvPTimes;" class="">Welt, </span><span
style="font-size: 15px; font-family: AdvPTimes;
color: rgb(0, 0, 255);" class="">1928</span><span
style="font-size: 15px; font-family: AdvPTimes;"
class="">) expresses very clearly the cognitive
purposes of the proponents of this
viewpoint. The semantic view shifts the
philosopher’s attention from the logical analysis of
theories towards an investigation based on
mathematical models. A relevant supporter of
this standpoint is the Dutch philosopher Bas van
Fraassen (mentioned by Fortin and
coauthors). In his 1980 essential work, van Fraassen
clearly speaks of ‘‘failure of the
syntactic approach’’ and strongly claims that: ‘‘the
notions of truth and model belong to
semantics’’ (van Fraassen </span><span
style="font-size: 15px; font-family: AdvPTimes;
color: rgb(0, 0, 255);" class="">1980</span><span
style="font-size: 15px; font-family: AdvPTimes;"
class="">, pp. 43 and 53). According to the Dutch
philosopher ‘‘Any
structure which satisfies the axioms of a theory [</span><span
style="font-size: 15px; font-family: AdvPSSym;"
class="">...</span><span style="font-size: 15px;
font-family: AdvPTimes;" class="">] is called a
model of that theory’’, and
‘‘The models occupy centre stage’’. Van Fraassen’s
models are to be intended in the strictly
mathematical sense of the theory of models. For
example, talking about the Bohr’s atomic
model, he distances himself from this use of the
term: ‘‘in the scientists’ use, ‘model’
denotes what I would call a model-type’’ (van
Fraassen </span><span style="font-size: 15px;
font-family: AdvPTimes; color: rgb(0, 0, 255);"
class="">1980</span><span style="font-size: 15px;
font-family: AdvPTimes;" class="">, p. 44). In
synthesis: ‘‘For the
Syntactic View, what is not (or cannot be)
reconstructed axiomatically is not theoretical,
while for the Semantic View, what is not (or cannot
be) modeled mathematically is not
theoretical’’. Based on this sharp contrast, it is
not surprising that the supporters of the
syntactic versus semantic views have often chosen a
‘‘strategy of combat’’ within the
philosophical debate (Winther </span><span
style="font-size: 15px; font-family: AdvPTimes;
color: rgb(0, 0, 255);" class="">2015</span><span
style="font-size: 15px; font-family: AdvPTimes;"
class="">). </span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div><br class="">
I’ll stop here for now. A lot more needs to be said about the
intimate nature of relations among scientific narrative before
one can bind the logic of the perplex number system to the
grammars associated with mathematically structured
anticipatory systems.</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>Cheers</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>jerry</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Oct 21, 2018, at 1:58 PM, Pedro C.
Marijuan <<a href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es"
class="" moz-do-not-send="true">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF" class="">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Dear FIS Collegues,<br
class="">
<br class="">
To Jerry: Thanks for the appreciation. I cannot
object the logico-formal path you propose, but is it
feasible?</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Since it already operates in nature, does this
make these paths mathematically infeasible?</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">It seems that nature does what nature does,
without questioning it’s feasibility!</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Several disciplines already have made the
logic-formal path of molecular biology the critical basis
of practice - the leading practitioners of personalized
medicine, for example. The readers of this list have the
opportunity to learn the foundation of modern biomedical
information theory, rather than simply deny its existence!
Meanwhile, the high school students of today are learning
the intricacies of the several coding systems necessary to
represent natural information transfer.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF" class="">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">I really doubt that a new
way of thinking could emerge by logically bridging
those different disciplines; the magnitude is more
than enormous.</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
Your strange fears are unwarranted, in my opinion.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF" class="">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">My argument is that the
most pressing problems in the informational arena
(susceptible of being "bridged") refer to cell-cycle
logics of signaling, and human life advancement and
social communication strategies.</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class="">Hmmmm…</div>
<div class="">It seems to me that your analysis could be
stronger if you separate the grounding of information
transmission in various narrative categories. Pragmatic
information transportation is grounded in composed
organizations. Naturally composed organizations are not
merely mathematical metaphysics, they are real functional
identities. </div>
<div class="">At the root of organized systems are the codes
of representations. Quantum theory forms the dynamics. The
informed numbers of nature form the transmission agents
for information transfer and information re-formations
(reactive compositions that change the scale of being).
Organisms reproduce information, not merely send
information from point A to point B. </div>
<div class="">The informed numbers of living systems are not
merely inert symbols of meta-physical mathematics
(phenomenology?), but informed numbers have attributes.
The attributes of informed numbers are expressible in
several codes (symbol systems), including the electrical
symbols of quantum theory.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF" class="">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Narratives are not the
sceintific subject per se, but only in their tight
relationship with the advancement of our own
individual lives. Tales, comedies, tragedies,
operas, novels, lullabies, media, today propaganda
... are natural units with different calibers that
are useful for different life situations. In all
cases the universal reference is the advancement of
the life course.</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
Very interesting sentences.</div>
<div class="">But, without a definition of what is meant by
“natural units”, it is unclear to me what the logical
content is. </div>
<div class="">For example, what are the "natural units” of
psychology? </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">In other words, if I may ask, is the intent to
assert some sort of universal extension?</div>
<div class="">If this conjecture is true, I would appreciate a
hint or two about the logical base of the extension. Are you
seeking to imply Tarski’s meta-languages?</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF" class="">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Stories provide us with a
unique mirror to the inner dynamics of human
nature. </div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Is this sentence ambiguous? </div>
<div class="">The the term “mirror” merely a metaphor to
remove reality from the dynamics of the human?</div>
<div class="">Or, is it the same sort of “mirror” used in
Quantum theory to distinguish the asymmetry of optical
isomers that are essential for generating human dynamics?</div>
<br class="">
While I appreciate the attempts to create a useful
descriptive language for biological information theory, it
seems to me that a foundation for scientific information
theory must be a quantitive theory with logical terms that
represent mathematical terms. The concept of informed
numbers provide such a basis. Elsewhere, I have used the
term “organic mathematics” to represent the relation logics
of informed numbers.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Cheers</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Jerry</div>
</div>
<br class="">
</div>
</blockquote>
<p><br>
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
-------------------------------------------------
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/">http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/</a>
------------------------------------------------- </pre>
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