<div dir="ltr">Cari Joseph, Pedro e Tutti,<div>a conferma del messaggio inviatovi otto giorni fa, vale la pena di ricordare che non v'ha conoscenza </div><div>scientifica che possa permettersi di (auto) definirsi assolutamente certa. L'unica certezza che esiste</div><div>è quella dell'incertezza. La stessa matematica, anche a mio modesto giudizio considerabile più una </div><div>logica-arte o un'arte logica che una scienza, è affetta da una certa indecidibilità o indeterminazione:</div><div><br></div><div>"- teorema dell'incompletezza di K. Godel: 'qualunque sistema logico abbastanza complesso da costituire</div><div>un'aritmetica deve contenere una proposizione intrinsecamente indecidibile';</div><div>- principio di indeterminazione di W. Heisenberg: 'è impossibile misurare con precisione sia la posizione</div><div> che la quantità di moto della stessa particella in moto, simultaneamente';</div><div>- teorema di A. Tarski: 'per le teorie semanticamente chiuse (vi è) la necessità di limitare la potenza</div><div>espressiva delle teorie medesime, ammettendo che in esse sia possibile definire un predicato di verità solo</div><div>PARZIALE, relativo cioè ad AMBITI DI DISCORSO per i quali le condizioni di verità della proposizione non </div><div>coincidono esattamente con quanto da essa espresso'.</div><div>I suddetti teoremi dimostrano che il sapere scientifico dipende dalla mente dell'osservatore e ha bisogno</div><div> dell'inter-soggettività secondo una prospettiva non ontologica (tipica della vecchia epistemologia positivistica</div><div> o idealistica), ma onto-genetica dia-logica" reale (Rizzo F., "Valore e valutazioni. La scienza dell'economia o</div><div> l'economia della scienza", FrancoAngeli, Milano, 1-4 edizione, 1999- 2009, pp. 265-272)..</div><div><br></div><div>Non per niente, di recente, ha visto la luce editoriale: Rizzo F., La scienza non può non essere umana, civile,</div><div>sociale, ECONOMI(C)A , enigmatica, nobile, profetica" (Aracne editrice, Roma, 2016).</div><div><br></div><div>E' un piacere dell'anima e della mente, frutto di una rilevante affinità elettiva, leggere le considerazioni di Pedro, </div><div>Joseph, Terry Deacon ed altri, senza offesa per nessuno in quanto io sono un "poverino esponenziale".</div><div>Grazie a Tutti.</div><div>Francesco.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">Il giorno gio 1 nov 2018 alle ore 09:53 Joseph Brenner <<a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>> ha scritto:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="navy" face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:navy">Dear Pedro and All,<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="navy" face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:navy"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="navy" face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:navy">Despite the promising start, I
think we are indeed missing a central element and more importantly its
function, which may not be to bring coherence as such but a proper view of the
co-existence and co-operation of coherence and incoherence/decoherence, consistency
and inconsistency, coincidence and decoincidence, certitude and incertitude. In
a world/context where we are confronted daily with the vicious coherence of a
quasi-fascist system, not taking it into account would make the FIS discussion
worse than incorrect; it would make it irrelevant.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="navy" face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:navy"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="navy" face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:navy">The tools to formally capture at
least the part of living cyclical processes that can be so ‘captured’
(binary concept, again) may look quite differently from those we are used to. I
have suggested that the dances and rhythms – to use Pedro’s
excellent image – can be not modelled but described by reference to a
contradictorial dynamics of motion from actuality to potentiality and back plus
a basis for emergence. As simply as I can put them, here are some further
things I believe need to be addressed as a consequence:<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="navy" face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:navy"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:53.4pt"><u></u><font size="3" color="navy" face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:navy"><span>1.<font size="1" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></font></span></span></font><u></u><font color="navy"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:navy">Simple references to cycles and cyclicity, ignoring the sinusoidal
development of natural phenomena, which suggest a return to an identical point
on the curve, should be avoided.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:53.4pt"><u></u><font size="3" color="navy" face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:navy"><span>2.<font size="1" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></font></span></span></font><u></u><font color="navy"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:navy">It should be obvious to Karl and others that an alternative
to “classical Wittgenstein logic” exists, namely Logic in Reality,
but its explanatory capacity has simply been ignored. Why? My discussion of a
logic for macroscopic processes can be found in a recent Physics <i><span style="font-style:italic">arXiv </span></i>article.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:53.4pt"><u></u><font size="3" color="navy" face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:navy"><span>3.<font size="1" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></font></span></span></font><u></u><font color="navy"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:navy">Pedro’s point about ‘multi-time’ has also
been addressed in my logical system, basically, by suggesting a more
interactive relation between time and space than is possible in classical
mechanics. <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:53.4pt"><u></u><font size="3" color="navy" face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:navy"><span>4.<font size="1" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></font></span></span></font><u></u><font color="navy"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:navy">Karl, your formulation, in my humble opinion, includes
another error if my point of view is at least accepted for discussion: you have
intuition and instinct on one side, and ‘science’ and certitude on
the other. The statement of the problem in dichotomous terms is part of the
problem.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:53.4pt"><u></u><font size="3" color="navy" face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:navy"><span>5.<font size="1" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></font></span></span></font><u></u><font color="navy"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:navy">Unless the cases are constructed and limited, attempting to foretell
the future is a Promethean objective which will bring its own punishment.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="navy" face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:navy"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="navy" face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:navy">I look forward, still, to some
minimum exchange on the above. Cheers,<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="navy" face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:navy"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="navy" face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:navy">Joseph (Epimetheus)<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font size="2" color="black" face="Tahoma"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:windowtext;font-weight:bold">From:</span></font></b><font size="2" color="black" face="Tahoma"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:windowtext"> Fis [mailto:<a href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es</a>]
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">On Behalf Of </span></b>Pedro C. Marijuan<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> mercredi, 31 octobre 2018
21:53<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> <a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Fis] Anticipatory
Systems</span></font><font color="black"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:windowtext"><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="black" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="black" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">Dear Karl and List,<br>
<br>
Sorry that I could not answer earlier (accumulation of other writing duties). I
was flabbergasted by your Allegory. Chapeau! Apart from the high style and the
charm and the elegant Martianus Capella background, it is a wise move presenting
your "algebra" as cyclicity interactions. Good luck in this new
explanatory direction! I think it can contribute to enlighten the
"stories" intrinsic rhythmicity. <br>
<br>
Not being blessed by the Muses I must confine myself to the prosaic
commentary... That Nature operates something does not mean that our disciplines
can explain it coherently across logico-formal paths. How many procedimental
simplifications are needed to traverse from quantum dynamics to, say, the
atomic bond or the molecular structure? But I do not criticize those breaches,
conversely they are a tribute to scientific ingenuity. And now traversing to
the human information (or even to biological information) ... is it feasible
without acknowledging the horrendous existing gaps? Even more, aren't we
missing a central element that brings coherence to the overall dances and
rhythms around biological/neuronal information? I mean, the life cycle.<br>
<br>
Let us remind Gibson's ecological perception theory. When we confront an
environment we do not perceive it piece-meal, at least in the important motifs.
We do not feel the ineffable tiger's sensory impressions as disconnected, but
forming a well integrated whole that motivates an adaptive response--either
freezing, or flying, or heroically fighting. The tiger, or better the rabbit,
is an ecosystem's "affordance" that is important for our life, either
to eat or to not be eaten. So, we demand perceptual/motor coherence, but with
respect to what? Of course: to the maintenance of our life. I mean, the life
cycle. <br>
<br>
Going back to stories, we may take them as genuine encapsulations (a better
word of choice?) of the social "affordances" we are naturally
immersed by living within our societies. It is our ecosystem, and we may see
many different affordances, and we may craft many stories to interconnect them,
to "mirror" them. Again, there should be a coherence: around what?
Around our life cycle and the lives of our audience. The structure is far more
complex now, but who said that solving the neuronal "binding problem"
around our percepts was simple?<br>
<br>
Many thanks to Mark (coherently!!). Also I would like to be able to respond to
other demands from Jerry, but here is my counter-demand: could you adventure
tools to formally capture such a multi-time, multi-rhythm being as a life-cycle
in progress?<br>
<br>
Best wishes to all,<br>
--Pedro <br>
<br>
El 29/10/2018 a las 16:32, Karl Javorszky escribió:<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt" type="cite">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:8.0pt;line-height:106%"><u><font size="2" color="black" face="Calibri"><span lang="DE-AT" style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:106%;font-family:Calibri">Anticipation</span></font></u><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:106%;font-family:Calibri"><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:8.0pt;line-height:106%"><font size="2" color="black" face="Calibri"><span lang="DE-AT" style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:106%;font-family:Calibri"> </span></font><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:106%;font-family:Calibri"><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:8.0pt;line-height:106%"><font size="2" color="black" face="Calibri"><span lang="DE-AT" style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:106%;font-family:Calibri">Learned Friends,</span></font><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:106%;font-family:Calibri"><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:8.0pt;line-height:106%"><font size="2" color="black" face="Calibri"><span lang="DE-AT" style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:106%;font-family:Calibri"> </span></font><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:106%;font-family:Calibri"><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:8.0pt;line-height:106%"><font size="2" color="black" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:106%;font-family:Calibri">We deal with the observation, that biologic organisms anticipate
what will happen next. Some concentrate on the narrative of the anticipation,
some on the phenomena that are anticipated. As a human faculty, anticipation
can range from intuition, guess, instinct, to prediction and certitude. Science
has more or less dealt with certitude (b follows from a) and has understood
prediction (if a then p(b) ~ x). Now we work our way towards understanding
instinctive prediction.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:8.0pt;line-height:106%"><font size="2" color="black" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:106%;font-family:Calibri">The utility and efficacy of the narrative version of
anticipation varies also greatly: we have the wish formulae, where faith and
belief causes anticipating an effect (if I say “please” they will
give that to me), magical incantations with powerful words, inputting arguments
of an algorithm in the hope of receiving a result, and the classical case of
the words of the narrative being one and inseparable from the facts that are
the case (the DNA is a narrative of what will happen, and its predictions are
in the closest possible way related to the facts of the matter the narrative
talks about). (Interactive online reporting, where the narration is a part of
the process.)<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:8.0pt;line-height:106%"><font size="2" color="black" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:106%;font-family:Calibri">We do have some difficulties with a running narration,
because such a thing as telling the future has no place in classical,
Wittgenstein logic and the corresponding narrative about the proceedings. That,
what will come into existence is presently not the case. Whichever way we turn
it, we are not supposed to talk about things that are not the case. <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:8.0pt;line-height:106%"><font size="2" color="black" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:106%;font-family:Calibri"> <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:8.0pt;line-height:106%"><font size="2" color="black" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:106%;font-family:Calibri">Foretelling the future (anticipating correctly) is a task
that humans can despair of. This problem being with us since the beginning of
time, it has been addressed by many generations using diverse lexica.
Bruno’s suggestion that we have no shy using words and concepts of
theology is a wise one: Our forefathers expressed themselves in allegories
involving divine figures. This has given me courage to present to you an
Allegory on the Seduction of Arithmetica by Amor, with a bow to Martianus
Capella. May your serene judgement of this non-polished draft be softened by
magnanimous mercy extended against a beginner.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:8.0pt;line-height:106%"><font size="2" color="black" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:106%;font-family:Calibri"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:8.0pt;line-height:106%"><font size="2" color="black" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:106%;font-family:Calibri">-----------------------<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:8.0pt;line-height:106%"><font size="2" color="black" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:106%;font-family:Calibri">Seduction of Arithmetica by Amor (20181028)<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:8.0pt;line-height:106%"><font size="2" color="black" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:106%;font-family:Calibri"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></p>
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<pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">_______________________________________________<u></u><u></u></span></font></pre><pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">Fis mailing list<u></u><u></u></span></font></pre><pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><u></u><u></u></span></font></pre><pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" target="_blank">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><u></u><u></u></span></font></pre></blockquote>
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<pre cols="72"><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">-- <u></u><u></u></span></font></pre><pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">-------------------------------------------------<u></u><u></u></span></font></pre><pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">Pedro C. Marijuán<u></u><u></u></span></font></pre><pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group<u></u><u></u></span></font></pre><pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font></pre><pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"><a href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" target="_blank">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a><u></u><u></u></span></font></pre><pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"><a href="http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/" target="_blank">http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/</a><u></u><u></u></span></font></pre><pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">------------------------------------------------- <u></u><u></u></span></font></pre>
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