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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Dear All,<br>
<br>
Thanks to Loet, Mark, Francesco, and Stan for the new elements of
discussion. At stake is whether we can interconnect the
cellular/biological and the social/humanistic via traditional
systemic generalizations (semiosis included) or there might be a
more appropriate "informational" path. Given that we have started
the debate by the communication aspect ("stories"/narratives), it
seems that the former option, the traditional one, has more
traction. Necessarily? First, let me discuss the topic of
"codes". Apart form the genetic one, bacteria have almost none
other (except protein degradation). But we the eukaryotes are full
of codes: histone code, splicing codes, epigenetic codes, tubulin
code, cytoskeleton codes, sugar codes, compartment codes, etc.
etc. Actually Marcello Barbieri has postulated a new field within
biosemiosis, "code biology". To sum up my own interpretation, the
development of new complex functions has implied a multitude of
new "hard" codes inscribed in DNA/RNA and protein sequences and,
even more importantly, "soft" codes via signaling combinatorics,
genuine molecular "narratives" shared among cell-cycle
trajectories. Only then our "cellular complexity" has been made
possible.<br>
<br>
The second leg of the argument concerns what Spinoza called the
Principle of Conatus (effort, striving): "the endeavor to persist
and flourish in one's own being". Very recent works of Damasio and
Pinker this year coincide in their expostulation of this Conatus
Principle as rooted in our biological stuff, in our evolutionarily
grounded tricks to stave off the effects of entropy. Damasio goes
to connect our infrastructure of emotions, feelings, etc. with the
Cellular Imperative, via the successive evolutionary stages of
increasing organismic complexity. Then, when symbolic language
emerges in our species, an explosion of social complexity occurs
relatively fast. Like in the eukaryotic biology of codes above.
And the communication via "packages" or stories that encapsulate
the relevant behavioral happenstances in the social milieu, in
order to learn how to advance the own life course, become the
vertebral column of the new human "informational" order. <br>
<br>
By the way, the "dialogic" term was taken from R. Sennet
(Together, 2012), he was meaning what happens when a common ground
is not found in the dialog. It can be complemented with
"monologic" and "multilogic" --easy to see what they mean!<br>
<br>
Best wishes<br>
--Pedro<br>
<br>
El 24/10/2018 a las 13:21, <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net">loet@leydesdorff.net</a> escribió:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAOP47pzu1LNo=L=MrJHXTdDWOYpAmdpmcNyzNBaQGDODokkb+w@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">Dear Mark and
colleagues, <br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">It seems to
me that in this case, one can learn top-down. We begin to
understand how communications is coordinated by codes in the
communication which are not observable, since operating
virtually. The codes have the status of hypotheses. Their
interaction can generate redundancy among the perspectives
which is measurable in potentially negative bits of
information. Redundancy adds options which were not available
yet. This operation is against the entropy law, and thus there
is a link with anticipation: x(t) = f (x(t+1)). In Dubois's
terminology: hyperincursion: the system operates in terms of
expectations of future states. Only the social system can do
so because the codes of communication can interact as
selection envrionments for one another. It seems to me that
biology does not have more than a single code (DNA), and
biological systems are incursive: the mind has to couple on a
body -- in other words, it is always instantiated. The rule of
law for example can be instantiated in local courts, but it
does not have to be instantiated at specific places. There is
a degree of freedom about where to be instantiated. <br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">In
evolutionary terminology: the observables are phenotypical;
but we have to specify the genotypes. The codes are
genotypical, but not given (unlike in biological evoltuion).
In cultural evoltuion, the codes are co-constructed with the
observable variation as selection mechanisms. Coordination is
a form of selection. For example, as a system growth (that is,
becomes populated), it may increasingly pollute its
environment and thus create a selective freedback.<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">Hopefully, we
can make next steps. But for me this is the second
communication on the list this week.</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">Best,</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">Loet<br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr">On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 6:44 AM Mark Johnson <<a
href="mailto:johnsonmwj1@gmail.com" moz-do-not-send="true">johnsonmwj1@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">Dear Pedro and list,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I wonder if narrative is the right category to
concentrate on. Clearly stories are important, but it
does lead to the conclusion that "everything's a story"
(or worse, MERELY a story), and that leads nowhere, in
my opinion. Good stories are interesting because they
have coherence (if they don't, are they stories at
all?). I wonder if it's "coherence" which is at the root
of the issue. The deeper question is whether the
coherence lies in words of the story independently from
the coherence of a conversation about it - Pedro's
emphasis on dialogue is important. My guess is coherence
arises from a totality which is essentially dialogical,
as Pedro notes. But we need to get closer to
"coherence", not narrative. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>When talking about dialogue, I'm puzzled by the
emphasis on "two people": the "Dia" in dialogue means
"through", so it's THROUGH "logos" (words, wisdom, etc):
that can be many people, many brains. That's more than
simply talking to one another. It's the full gamut of
intersubjective engagement. Ultimately, that enlists an
total ontology - biology, physics, consciousness,
ontogeny, phylogeny, education, etc. (and yes, all of
those things are indeed stories!)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>As Loet has noted, coherence is a problem,
particularly in cybernetics. It cannot be accounted for
in a bottom-up process; there has to be top-down
coordination. It is the latter which gives coherence to
everything: the great mystery of nature is, as John
Torday remarked a while ago, that everything seems to
fit together. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>My guess is that the coherence of stories, art,
dialogue, etc is connected to the coherence of
consciousness, which is probably connected to the
coherence of biological processes, and why not physical
processes too? After all, mathematics, (another product
of consciousness, like a story) reveals fundamental
patterns through fractals, and even our machine learning
algorithms seem to obey some kind of fundamental
self-symmetry in their operation, which whilst we are
exploiting them, we understand very little about (this
is fascinating: <a
href="https://medium.com/intuitionmachine/the-holographic-principle-and-deep-learning-52c2d6da8d9"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://medium.com/intuitionmachine/the-holographic-principle-and-deep-learning-52c2d6da8d9</a>)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>So my question is, why narrative? Coherence is the
thing!</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best wishes,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Mark</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr">On Tue, 23 Oct 2018 at 19:38, Pedro C.
Marijuan <<a href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div
class="m_-1938144783855106799m_-7775806513548641261moz-cite-prefix">Stan,
List,<br>
<br>
I was thinking that those questions (below) or what,
why, how, etc. are not very useful either in order to
ascertain "causality" around communication phenomena.
First, a communication is not "monologic" as the
Aristotelian scheme presupposes (at least implicitly)
but "dialogic" as it is a dialog between two parties
who have different experiences, backgrounds,
preferences, valence, "logics", etc. Thus the pieces
of communication between two or more parties cannot be
explained monologically, but establishing something
else: a story, a narrative where the relevant
antecedent facts, the life stories of the
protagonists, the current or previous background, the
exchanges themselves, etc. are expressed with economy
or "optimality" depending on the explanatory
purposes... So very different narratives may be
needed (including the elaboration of "data") even
about a single communication or interactive exchange.
In any event, the common factor is happenstances
around life cycles or life courses. Narratives are but
complex pieces of information --causative or
descriptive-- that we naturally elaborate and
interpret around the social life around. And this may
dovetail with the views of Akerlof & Shiller on
narratives in "phishing for phools" economics... <br>
Does this make "informational" sense?<br>
Best--Pedro<br>
<br>
El 21/10/2018 a las 20:58, Pedro C. Marijuan escribió:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div
class="m_-1938144783855106799m_-7775806513548641261moz-cite-prefix"><br>
To Stan: Thanks for incorporating the four
Aristotelian causes below. But do you think they are
useful or well suited for communicational phenomena?
Rather they respond better to the single agent or
designer arranging a piece of the inanimate world to
his/her plans. See the traditional metaphor of the
sculptor carving out the statue. But communication
and narratives could be different. Seemingly they
respond better to questions such as: What? (Content)
To whom? (interlocutor) Why? (reasons or purpose)
How? (style, moods, manners) How long? (duration of
the engagement, transitions). I think that when
cells indulge in their molecular narratives or when
we do communicate with our stories the causal
analysis becomes different from the Aistotelian
frame. It could be a good point to search out.<br>
<br>
Best wishes to all<br>
--Pedro<br>
<br>
El 19/10/2018 a las 15:49, Stanley N Salthe
escribió:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">On the topic of information as
narration:
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="m_-1938144783855106799m_-7775806513548641261gmail-p1"><span
class="m_-1938144783855106799m_-7775806513548641261gmail-s1">Information
as Narrative (would involve serial
‘statements’)</span></p>
<p
class="m_-1938144783855106799m_-7775806513548641261gmail-p2"><span
style="line-height:1.5">Formal cause (of
narrative) ... the presence of available
channels (in nature and/or culture) for
informative energy flows</span><br>
<span
class="m_-1938144783855106799m_-7775806513548641261gmail-s1"></span></p>
<p
class="m_-1938144783855106799m_-7775806513548641261gmail-p2"><span
class="m_-1938144783855106799m_-7775806513548641261gmail-s1"></span></p>
<p
class="m_-1938144783855106799m_-7775806513548641261gmail-p2"><span
style="line-height:1.5">Material cause
... available energy gradients for
required actions generating the narrative</span><br>
<span
class="m_-1938144783855106799m_-7775806513548641261gmail-s1"></span></p>
<p
class="m_-1938144783855106799m_-7775806513548641261gmail-p2"><span
class="m_-1938144783855106799m_-7775806513548641261gmail-s1"
style="line-height:1.5">Efficient cause(s)
... serial actions having sequential
cumulative effects on the result of
information flow in such a channel</span></p>
<p
class="m_-1938144783855106799m_-7775806513548641261gmail-p2"><span
style="line-height:1.5">Final cause ...
anticipated subsequents as effects of the
narrative</span><br>
<span
class="m_-1938144783855106799m_-7775806513548641261gmail-s1"></span></p>
<p
class="m_-1938144783855106799m_-7775806513548641261gmail-p2"><span
class="m_-1938144783855106799m_-7775806513548641261gmail-s1"></span></p>
<p
class="m_-1938144783855106799m_-7775806513548641261gmail-p2"><span
style="line-height:1.5"> (Anticipation
requires system survival over a period of
time, during which impingements were
survived, sometimes by way of internal
modification -- Rosen, 1985, Anticipatory
Systems) </span><br>
<span
class="m_-1938144783855106799m_-7775806513548641261gmail-s1"></span></p>
<p
class="m_-1938144783855106799m_-7775806513548641261gmail-p2"><span
style="line-height:1.5">STAN</span></p>
<p
class="m_-1938144783855106799m_-7775806513548641261gmail-p2"><span
class="m_-1938144783855106799m_-7775806513548641261gmail-s1"></span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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<pre class="m_-1938144783855106799m_-7775806513548641261moz-signature" cols="72">--
-------------------------------------------------
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
<a class="m_-1938144783855106799m_-7775806513548641261moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>
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------------------------------------------------- </pre>
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<pre class="m_-1938144783855106799m_-7775806513548641261moz-signature" cols="72">--
-------------------------------------------------
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
<a class="m_-1938144783855106799m_-7775806513548641261moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>
<a class="m_-1938144783855106799m_-7775806513548641261moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/</a>
------------------------------------------------- </pre>
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-- <br>
<div dir="ltr" class="m_-1938144783855106799gmail_signature"
data-smartmail="gmail_signature">Dr. Mark William Johnson<br>
Institute of Learning and Teaching<br>
Faculty of Health and Life Sciences<br>
University of Liverpool<br>
<br>
Phone: 07786 064505<br>
Email: <a href="mailto:johnsonmwj1@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">johnsonmwj1@gmail.com</a><br>
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data-smartmail="gmail_signature">Loet Leydesdorff <br>
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moz-do-not-send="true">loet@leydesdorff.net</a>; <a
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
-------------------------------------------------
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/">http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/</a>
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