<div dir="auto">Dear Loet,<div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I think the conclusion that we learn top-down is important. This is increasingly apparent with our conscious experience of learning in the light of communications technology. </div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">On biology, cellular communication looks very much like a social system, I would suggest. I wonder if we need to see DNA differently (Terry Deacon said at the biosemiotics conference this year, "how does a molecule become about another molecule?" - great question!) DNA may be an epiphenomenon of the cellular communication process - at some level, what Schrödinger called an "aperiodic crystal" may also be a kind of hypothesis as cells organise themselves. If this is the case, then the coherence between biological communication and social systems may provide a new insight into dialogical processes (and learning)</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Having said this, there must be some organising principle that produces coherence and creates biological and social regularities. My guess is, as you suggest, that it has something to do with interactions of redundancies at multiple levels of description... but I suspect the biology has flexibility in an analogous way to social phenomena: is human consciousness so exceptional, or is "consciousness" from cells upwards?</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">In such a simple thing as studying a musical instrument, "practice makes perfect", is only one set of levels of redundancy generation. If it was only this level of redundancy, we'd all be virtuosi! Something else must be going on...</div><div dir="auto"><br></div>Best wishes,<div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Mark<br><br><div class="gmail_quote" dir="auto"><div dir="ltr">On Wed, 24 Oct 2018, 21:22 <a href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net">loet@leydesdorff.net</a>, <<a href="mailto:leydesdorff@gmail.com">leydesdorff@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">Dear Mark and colleagues, <br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">It seems to me that in this case, one can learn top-down. We begin to understand how communications is coordinated by codes in the communication which are not observable, since operating virtually. The codes have the status of hypotheses. Their interaction can generate redundancy among the perspectives which is measurable in potentially negative bits of information. Redundancy adds options which were not available yet. This operation is against the entropy law, and thus there is a link with anticipation: x(t) = f (x(t+1)). In Dubois's terminology: hyperincursion: the system operates in terms of expectations of future states. Only the social system can do so because the codes of communication can interact as selection envrionments for one another. It seems to me that biology does not have more than a single code (DNA), and biological systems are incursive: the mind has to couple on a body -- in other words, it is always instantiated. The rule of law for example can be instantiated in local courts, but it does not have to be instantiated at specific places. There is a degree of freedom about where to be instantiated. <br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">In evolutionary terminology: the observables are phenotypical; but we have to specify the genotypes. The codes are genotypical, but not given (unlike in biological evoltuion). In cultural evoltuion, the codes are co-constructed with the observable variation as selection mechanisms. Coordination is a form of selection. For example, as a system growth (that is, becomes populated), it may increasingly pollute its environment and thus create a selective freedback.<br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">Hopefully, we can make next steps. But for me this is the second communication on the list this week.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">Best,</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">Loet<br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 6:44 AM Mark Johnson <<a href="mailto:johnsonmwj1@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">johnsonmwj1@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">Dear Pedro and list,<div><br></div><div>I wonder if narrative is the right category to concentrate on. Clearly stories are important, but it does lead to the conclusion that "everything's a story" (or worse, MERELY a story), and that leads nowhere, in my opinion. Good stories are interesting because they have coherence (if they don't, are they stories at all?). I wonder if it's "coherence" which is at the root of the issue. The deeper question is whether the coherence lies in words of the story independently from the coherence of a conversation about it - Pedro's emphasis on dialogue is important. My guess is coherence arises from a totality which is essentially dialogical, as Pedro notes. But we need to get closer to "coherence", not narrative. </div><div><br></div><div>When talking about dialogue, I'm puzzled by the emphasis on "two people": the "Dia" in dialogue means "through", so it's THROUGH "logos" (words, wisdom, etc): that can be many people, many brains. That's more than simply talking to one another. It's the full gamut of intersubjective engagement. Ultimately, that enlists an total ontology - biology, physics, consciousness, ontogeny, phylogeny, education, etc. (and yes, all of those things are indeed stories!)</div><div><br></div><div>As Loet has noted, coherence is a problem, particularly in cybernetics. It cannot be accounted for in a bottom-up process; there has to be top-down coordination. It is the latter which gives coherence to everything: the great mystery of nature is, as John Torday remarked a while ago, that everything seems to fit together. </div><div><br></div><div>My guess is that the coherence of stories, art, dialogue, etc is connected to the coherence of consciousness, which is probably connected to the coherence of biological processes, and why not physical processes too? After all, mathematics, (another product of consciousness, like a story) reveals fundamental patterns through fractals, and even our machine learning algorithms seem to obey some kind of fundamental self-symmetry in their operation, which whilst we are exploiting them, we understand very little about (this is fascinating: <a href="https://medium.com/intuitionmachine/the-holographic-principle-and-deep-learning-52c2d6da8d9" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://medium.com/intuitionmachine/the-holographic-principle-and-deep-learning-52c2d6da8d9</a>)</div><div><br></div><div>So my question is, why narrative? Coherence is the thing!</div><div><br></div><div>Best wishes,</div><div><br></div><div>Mark</div><div><br></div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Tue, 23 Oct 2018 at 19:38, Pedro C. Marijuan <<a href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div class="m_2319574362252891813m_-1938144783855106799m_-7775806513548641261moz-cite-prefix">Stan, List,<br>
<br>
I was thinking that those questions (below) or what, why, how,
etc. are not very useful either in order to ascertain "causality"
around communication phenomena. First, a communication is not
"monologic" as the Aristotelian scheme presupposes (at least
implicitly) but "dialogic" as it is a dialog between two parties
who have different experiences, backgrounds, preferences, valence,
"logics", etc. Thus the pieces of communication between two or
more parties cannot be explained monologically, but establishing
something else: a story, a narrative where the relevant antecedent
facts, the life stories of the protagonists, the current or
previous background, the exchanges themselves, etc. are expressed
with economy or "optimality" depending on the explanatory
purposes... So very different narratives may be needed (including
the elaboration of "data") even about a single communication or
interactive exchange. In any event, the common factor is
happenstances around life cycles or life courses. Narratives are
but complex pieces of information --causative or descriptive--
that we naturally elaborate and interpret around the social life
around. And this may dovetail with the views of Akerlof &
Shiller on narratives in "phishing for phools" economics... <br>
Does this make "informational" sense?<br>
Best--Pedro<br>
<br>
El 21/10/2018 a las 20:58, Pedro C. Marijuan escribió:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div class="m_2319574362252891813m_-1938144783855106799m_-7775806513548641261moz-cite-prefix"><br>
To Stan: Thanks for incorporating the four Aristotelian causes
below. But do you think they are useful or well suited for
communicational phenomena? Rather they respond better to the
single agent or designer arranging a piece of the inanimate
world to his/her plans. See the traditional metaphor of the
sculptor carving out the statue. But communication and
narratives could be different. Seemingly they respond better to
questions such as: What? (Content) To whom? (interlocutor) Why?
(reasons or purpose) How? (style, moods, manners) How long?
(duration of the engagement, transitions). I think that when
cells indulge in their molecular narratives or when we do
communicate with our stories the causal analysis becomes
different from the Aistotelian frame. It could be a good point
to search out.<br>
<br>
Best wishes to all<br>
--Pedro<br>
<br>
El 19/10/2018 a las 15:49, Stanley N Salthe escribió:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">On the topic of information as narration:
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<p class="m_2319574362252891813m_-1938144783855106799m_-7775806513548641261gmail-p1"><span class="m_2319574362252891813m_-1938144783855106799m_-7775806513548641261gmail-s1">Information as
Narrative (would involve serial ‘statements’)</span></p>
<p class="m_2319574362252891813m_-1938144783855106799m_-7775806513548641261gmail-p2"><span style="line-height:1.5">Formal
cause (of narrative) ... the presence of available
channels (in nature and/or culture) for informative
energy flows</span><br>
<span class="m_2319574362252891813m_-1938144783855106799m_-7775806513548641261gmail-s1"></span></p>
<p class="m_2319574362252891813m_-1938144783855106799m_-7775806513548641261gmail-p2"><span class="m_2319574362252891813m_-1938144783855106799m_-7775806513548641261gmail-s1"></span></p>
<p class="m_2319574362252891813m_-1938144783855106799m_-7775806513548641261gmail-p2"><span style="line-height:1.5">Material
cause ... available energy gradients for required
actions generating the narrative</span><br>
<span class="m_2319574362252891813m_-1938144783855106799m_-7775806513548641261gmail-s1"></span></p>
<p class="m_2319574362252891813m_-1938144783855106799m_-7775806513548641261gmail-p2"><span class="m_2319574362252891813m_-1938144783855106799m_-7775806513548641261gmail-s1" style="line-height:1.5">Efficient cause(s) ... serial
actions having sequential cumulative effects on the
result of information flow in such a channel</span></p>
<p class="m_2319574362252891813m_-1938144783855106799m_-7775806513548641261gmail-p2"><span style="line-height:1.5">Final
cause ... anticipated subsequents as effects of the
narrative</span><br>
<span class="m_2319574362252891813m_-1938144783855106799m_-7775806513548641261gmail-s1"></span></p>
<p class="m_2319574362252891813m_-1938144783855106799m_-7775806513548641261gmail-p2"><span class="m_2319574362252891813m_-1938144783855106799m_-7775806513548641261gmail-s1"></span></p>
<p class="m_2319574362252891813m_-1938144783855106799m_-7775806513548641261gmail-p2"><span style="line-height:1.5">
(Anticipation requires system survival over a period
of time, during which impingements were survived,
sometimes by way of internal modification -- Rosen,
1985, Anticipatory Systems) </span><br>
<span class="m_2319574362252891813m_-1938144783855106799m_-7775806513548641261gmail-s1"></span></p>
<p class="m_2319574362252891813m_-1938144783855106799m_-7775806513548641261gmail-p2"><span style="line-height:1.5">STAN</span></p>
<p class="m_2319574362252891813m_-1938144783855106799m_-7775806513548641261gmail-p2"><span class="m_2319574362252891813m_-1938144783855106799m_-7775806513548641261gmail-s1"></span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="m_2319574362252891813m_-1938144783855106799m_-7775806513548641261mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br>
<pre>_______________________________________________
Fis mailing list
<a class="m_2319574362252891813m_-1938144783855106799m_-7775806513548641261moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a>
<a class="m_2319574362252891813m_-1938144783855106799m_-7775806513548641261moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<p><br>
</p>
<pre class="m_2319574362252891813m_-1938144783855106799m_-7775806513548641261moz-signature" cols="72">--
-------------------------------------------------
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
<a class="m_2319574362252891813m_-1938144783855106799m_-7775806513548641261moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>
<a class="m_2319574362252891813m_-1938144783855106799m_-7775806513548641261moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/</a>
------------------------------------------------- </pre>
</blockquote>
<p><br>
</p>
<pre class="m_2319574362252891813m_-1938144783855106799m_-7775806513548641261moz-signature" cols="72">--
-------------------------------------------------
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
<a class="m_2319574362252891813m_-1938144783855106799m_-7775806513548641261moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>
<a class="m_2319574362252891813m_-1938144783855106799m_-7775806513548641261moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/</a>
------------------------------------------------- </pre>
<div id="m_2319574362252891813m_-1938144783855106799m_-7775806513548641261DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2"><br> <table style="border-top:1px solid #d3d4de">
<tbody><tr>
<td style="width:55px;padding-top:18px"><a href="https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"><img src="https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange-animated-no-repeat-v1.gif" alt="" width="46" height="29" style="width:46px;height:29px"></a></td>
<td style="width:470px;padding-top:17px;color:#41424e;font-size:13px;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;line-height:18px">Libre de virus. <a href="https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient" style="color:#4453ea" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">www.avast.com</a> </td>
</tr>
</tbody></table>
<a href="#m_2319574362252891813_m_-1938144783855106799_m_-7775806513548641261_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2" width="1" height="1" rel="noreferrer"> </a></div></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
Fis mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br>
<a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr" class="m_2319574362252891813m_-1938144783855106799gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">Dr. Mark William Johnson<br>Institute of Learning and Teaching<br>Faculty of Health and Life Sciences<br>University of Liverpool<br><br>Phone: 07786 064505<br>Email: <a href="mailto:johnsonmwj1@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">johnsonmwj1@gmail.com</a><br>Blog: <a href="http://dailyimprovisation.blogspot.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">http://dailyimprovisation.blogspot.com</a></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
Fis mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br>
<a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><div dir="ltr" class="m_2319574362252891813gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">Loet Leydesdorff <br>Professor Emeritus, University of Amsterdam<br>Amsterdam School of Communications Research (ASCoR)<br><a href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">loet@leydesdorff.net</a>; <a href="http://www.leydesdorff.net/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">http://www.leydesdorff.net/</a> <br><br></div>
</blockquote></div></div></div>