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<body><div>Dear Pedro and colleagues, </div><div><br /></div><div>My interest is not in levels lower than the biological, but in socio-cultural evolution which evolves in terms of entertaining more complex expectations both in our minds and in our communications (e.g., by using models or other abstractions--e.g., credit cards). This next-order cannot be reduced to the biological level which you seem to prioritize. </div><div><br /></div><div>First, the cells do not communicate in the rich sense indicated, but these processes can be considered "as if they are a semantic domain" (Maturana). Second, a biological description/explanation explains at best "languaging", but not "language." "Languaging is a form of behavior attributable to agency (including cells, whales, and monkeys). Language is a cultural achievement which emerges within these practices and then feeds back and reshapes the substrate in which it emerges. The cybernetic principle is that construction is bottom-up, but control tends to be top-down.</div><div><br /></div><div>One of the special languages is biology itself. It is highly coded discourse. As in other sciences, some biologists believe that their science more than others is grounded. The only ground we have, in my opinion, is the reflexivity in both languages and culture (including the sciences) as an interpersonal layer and in individual minds. The interplay between these two layers on top of the biological one enables us to study and explain the exchanges among us with the modesty of a "concrete philosophy of science" (Husserl, 1929), that is, in terms of resounding and conflicting intentionalities.</div><div><br /></div><div>Best,</div><div>Loet</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D">Loet
Leydesdorff <o:p xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office"></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D">Professor emeritus,
University of Amsterdam<br />
Amsterdam School of Communication Research (ASCoR)<o:p xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office"></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><span style="color:#44546A"><a href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net" title="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">loet@leydesdorff.net </span></a></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D">; </span><span style="color:#44546A"><a href="http://www.leydesdorff.net/" title="http://www.leydesdorff.net/"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">http://www.leydesdorff.net/</span></a></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D"> <br />
</span><span style="font-size: 9pt;">Associate Faculty, </span><span style="color:#44546A"><a href="http://www.sussex.ac.uk/spru/"><span style="font-size:9.0pt">SPRU, </span></a></span><span style="font-size: 9pt;">University of Sussex; <o:p xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office"></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><span style="font-size: 9pt;">Guest Professor </span><span style="color:#44546A"><a href="http://www.zju.edu.cn/english/"><span style="font-size:9.0pt">Zhejiang Univ.</span></a></span><span style="font-size: 9pt;">, Hangzhou; Visiting Professor, </span><span style="color:#44546A"><a href="http://www.istic.ac.cn/Eng/brief_en.html"><span style="font-size:9.0pt">ISTIC, </span></a></span><span style="font-size: 9pt;">Beijing;<o:p xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office"></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><span style="font-size: 9pt;">Visiting Fellow, </span><span style="color:#44546A"><a href="http://www.bbk.ac.uk/"><span style="font-size:
9.0pt">Birkbeck</span></a></span><span style="font-size: 9pt;">,
University of London; <o:p xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office"></o:p></span></p>
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<div>------ Original Message ------</div>
<div>From: "Pedro C. Marijuan" <<a href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>></div>
<div>To: <a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es">fis@listas.unizar.es</a></div>
<div>Sent: 10/21/2018 8:58:29 PM</div>
<div>Subject: Re: [Fis] Anticipatory Systems</div><div><br /></div>
<div id="x75c4780453e34a3" style="color: #000000"><blockquote cite="0ec1fb84-444c-e882-d958-b5a8764f8e2e@aragon.es" type="cite" class="cite2">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Dear FIS Collegues,<br />
<br />
In my second of the week I am responding to the recent comments.<br />
<br />
To Loet: Of course there might be many "imperatives" around.
Focusing on the "cellular" (versus atomic or molecular ones you
mention) is due to several reasons: the cell contains an inner
description , "coding", of its active components; it changes its
composition of active elements according to the demands of the
environment regarding the advancement of its own life course; it
"senses" the environment itself before activating specific gene
expression cascades. A watershed in signaling has been the fact
that hundreds of substances may be felt by "simple" bacteria,
which was unknown until last 15 years or so (the revolution of the
"one component systems"). The cell not only evolves, it also
"returns": all multicellular are inexorably bound to return to
unicells for their reproduction. It is a fascinating aspect,
coupled with epigenetic changes... and together with many other
recent discoveries, the need of a new evolutionary theory has
become deeply felt by quite many researchers; besides a number of
them make "informational" style considerations. Well, to conclude,
If any molecule or atom can do similar "informational" things,
please tell me. I will surrender to their "imperative".<br />
<br />
To Jerry: Thanks for the appreciation. I cannot object the
logico-formal path you propose, but is it feasible? I really doubt
that a new way of thinking could emerge by logically bridging
those different disciplines; the magnitude is more than enormous.
My argument is that the most pressing problems in the
informational arena (susceptible of being "bridged") refer to
cell-cycle logics of signaling, and human life advancement and
social communication strategies. Narratives are not the sceintific
subject per se, but only in their tight relationship with the
advancement of our own individual lives. Tales, comedies,
tragedies, operas, novels, lullabies, media, today propaganda ...
are natural units with different calibers that are useful for
different life situations. In all cases the universal reference is
the advancement of the life course. Stories provide us with a
unique mirror to the inner dynamics of human nature. The
scientific approach has not realized that our urge to understand
the world and to imagine stories is something as much governed by
laws as the structures of the atom or the genome (as Booker
puts!). Similarly, couldn't we describe as "molecular narratives"
the developmental trajectory of one of our cells after 30 or 40
divisions with progressive modifications due to signaling,
epigenesis, extracellular matrix, niche, and physical
force&adhesion? <br />
<br />
To Stan: Thanks for incorporating the four Aristotelian causes
below. But do you think they are useful or well suited for
communicational phenomena? Rather they respond better to the
single agent or designer arranging a piece of the inanimate world
to his/her plans. See the traditional metaphor of the sculptor
carving out the statue. But communication and narratives could be
different. Seemingly they respond better to questions such as:
What? (Content) To whom? (interlocutor) Why? (reasons or purpose)
How? (style, moods, manners) How long? (duration of the
engagement, transitions). I think that when cells indulge in their
molecular narratives or when we do communicate with our stories
the causal analysis becomes different from the Aistotelian frame.
It could be a good point to search out.<br />
<br />
Best wishes to all<br />
--Pedro<br />
<br />
El 19/10/2018 a las 15:49, Stanley N Salthe escribió:<br />
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:CAEoH_fTet8ieg16xyLN_V1iRUy0fa5esDSz74tvjzCdaqt9A8Q@mail.gmail.com" class="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">On the topic of information as narration:
<div><br />
</div>
<div>
<p class="gmail-p1"><span class="gmail-s1">Information as
Narrative (would involve serial ‘statements’)</span></p>
<p class="gmail-p2">Formal
cause (of narrative) ... the presence of available
channels (in nature and/or culture) for informative
energy flows<br />
<span class="gmail-s1"></span></p>
<p class="gmail-p2"><span class="gmail-s1"></span></p>
<p class="gmail-p2">Material
cause ... available energy gradients for required
actions generating the narrative<br />
<span class="gmail-s1"></span></p>
<p class="gmail-p2"><span class="gmail-s1" style="line-height:1.5">Efficient cause(s) ... serial
actions having sequential cumulative effects on the
result of information flow in such a channel</span></p>
<p class="gmail-p2">Final
cause ... anticipated subsequents as effects of the
narrative<br />
<span class="gmail-s1"></span></p>
<p class="gmail-p2"><span class="gmail-s1"></span></p>
<p class="gmail-p2">
(Anticipation requires system survival over a period of
time, during which impingements were survived, sometimes
by way of internal modification -- Rosen, 1985,
Anticipatory Systems) <br />
<span class="gmail-s1"></span></p>
<p class="gmail-p2">STAN</p>
<p class="gmail-p2"><span class="gmail-s1"></span><br />
</p>
</div>
</div>
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
-------------------------------------------------
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/">http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/</a>
------------------------------------------------- </pre>
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