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<p>Hi Pedro, and list<br>
</p>
<p>> 'Narratives all the way down' would find an obvious,
inevitable block with the origins of human language.</p>
<p>Fair point. <br>
</p>
<p>The regression I was pointing at is in our explanations. I would
be happy to say "It's narratives all the way down within the
domain of language and other formal systems". It is within that
domain that I worry about distinguishing narrative (as opposed to
non-narrative), because the domain seems to me to be composed of
narrative.<br>
</p>
<p>When we step outside language, we are indeed confronted by a
'huh', or perhaps by an 'om'. This can be an enlightening place to
visit, but the sages have cautioned us against trying to describe
that place in the narrative of language. Of course, that won't
stop us trying on this list...<br>
</p>
<p>Dai<br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 11/10/18 13:34, Pedro C. Marijuan
wrote:<br>
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Dear Dai and List,<br>
<br>
Thanks for the question. Looking for the ground of a narrative,
we would find something else than other narratives. In the
ground, similarly playing an important role, we may find basic
necessities, instinctive reactions, emotions, feelings,
fundamental social roles, etc. They belong to the genetic,
epigenetic and to the developmental learning, often acting in
our minds via the unconscious. This basic stuff of "human
nature" is intensely intertwined with narratives, where it
plays, in my view (and Booker's), the generative role.
'Narratives all the way down' would find an obvious, inevitable
block with the origins of human language. During maybe 800.000
years or so 'protonarratives' were almost restricted to guttural
sounds ("huh"style, which continues to be the most spoken
"word"--Enfield 2017). In any case, the problem to subsume
narratives within any single psycho-cognitive school, Gestalt in
this case or Jungian in Booker's, is that we do not capture them
quite appropriately within the single perspective. I referred to
evolutionary psychology and social psychology as the most
adequate frames to utilize--paying additional attention to other
approaches from the formal sciences (i.e., the Borromean
model?). I was amazed to see, under his own Jungian words, that
Booker was focusing into a generative "triadic scheme" and the
general "rule of three" among other intriguing interactive
dynamics. But we go far beyond the present discussion...<br>
<br>
Nice comment on narratives in the mental concoction of time. I
quite agree. Perhaps it deeply dovetails with Karl's
combinatoric cyclicity, and with the "elusive concept of
information" from Krassimir, implying the entangling of
different kinds of narratives, among which we agree we must
restrict ourselves to those fulfilling a series of rigorous
conditions--the different sciences explicitly approaching
information. With the necessity of carefully selecting the
fundamental ones as Xueshan has argued. We are limited!<br>
<br>
About the grounding of narratives, there is a great sentence in
Faust: "Im Anfang war die Tat". "In the beginning was the deed."<br>
<br>
Greetings to all<br>
--Pedro <br>
<br>
El 09/10/2018 a las 0:09, Dai Griffiths escribió:<br>
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<p>Thanks for restarting the list, Pedro.</p>
<p>>Now the 9th principle says: "Narratives emerge as
encapsulated forms of human communication, underlying the <br>
</p>
<p>>intricacies of social relationships, of economic
organization, and the very structures of political power."</p>
<p>I have a lot of sympathy with your emphasis on the importance
of narrative. But I have had a problem nagging me for some
years. The question is, in gestalt terms, "If the narrative is
the figure, then what is the ground?". It seems to me that all
human communication is composed of narrative, so we have
patterns within narrative, rather than the encapsulation by
narrative of something other than itself.</p>
<p>This cuts rather deeper when we consider that our
minds/brains have strictly zero access to the past. We live
exclusively in the present. The illusion of a past that
stretches back is generated by the creation of a narrative
that we formulate for ourselves. It is a 'story' that explains
why one thing should be conceived of as coming before another,
or leading to something. The narrative might concern why I am
angry, or why my back is hurting, or how this sentence
started. In all cases, the narrative is one more mental
structure existing in the present, and offering a rationale or
explanation for the current state of a wider mental structure.
You could describe this as 'encapsulation', but I feel that
misrepresents what must be a vast network of intersecting
mental structures.<br>
</p>
<p>It's 'Narratives all the way down'</p>
<p>(By the way, I just checked Wikipedia for "Turtles all the
way down", and they have a reference for tortoises from 1854.
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtles_all_the_way_down"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtles_all_the_way_down</a>)</p>
<p>Dai<br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 08/10/18 21:28, Pedro C.
Marijuan wrote:<br>
</div>
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Dear FISers,<br>
<br>
Many thanks for the warm, friendly responses. It was a pity,
but I could do nothing to preserve all the old subscribers,
as there was no way to produce a whole list of subscribers
(the list software only produced a separate listing for each
initial letter, but very dirty full of strange codes);
unfortunately there is no way to recuperate them. What we
can do instead is that each one may compile a few addresses
of interesting parties who can be invited, and then I can
send them an automatic invitation very easily (in group).
Afterwords each one has to confirm. Otherwise in this link [
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a>
] anyone can subscribe by him/herself. Any ideas for the
regrowth will be very welcome both online and offline. Who
knows... perhaps this is an opportunity to regrow within a
more scholarly basis. <br>
<br>
Continuing with narratives, two Nobel Prize in economics,
George Akerlof and Robert Shiller have been consistently
writing on the role of "stories" (narratives) as the
necessary complement of the rational agent theories. The
whispers from the "monkeys on our shoulders" [sic] very
often become louder and more commanding than the rational
discourse. in several disciplines, there is a reflection to
make on narratives as the natural form of social
communication. I have reworded the 10 principles of
information (to appear in Gordana & Burgin's compilation
from the 2017 IS4SI Meeting). Now the 9th principle says: "<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
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</xml><![endif]-->Narratives emerge as encapsulated forms of human
communication, underlying the intricacies of social
relationships, of economic organization, and the very
structures of political power." The central question: How do
narratives relate to the advancement of our own life cycles?
It is here that Booker, as I mentioned the last day, gives a
Jungian response, quite articulated, but probably
insufficient. The conjunction of social psychology (eg,
Kahneman) and evolutionary psychology (Henrich, Laland)
could provide a great translation of that highly significant
point of view. Enter now the late book of Damasio (2018),
pronouncing a rotund response: "we are cellular", and
subsequently we cannot help but reformulating the very
principles of the "cellular way of life" in all the new
evolved instances of collective life. That means that
finally we are approaching the cellular life cycle and its
systematic signaling "stories" in the relationship with the
environment. The living cell is the foundational information
"unit". The source of meaning.<br>
<br>
if the above series of explanatory pathways are well
concatenated, say via a global research project, the core of
information science would be finally articulated.
Information physics, Shannon's info etc. are relatively well
in their own tracks. It is the rest of the field that has
not yielded to a consistent unifying "story" yet. By the
way, Akerlof's 2001 Nobel was for "asymmetric information".<br>
<br>
All the best!<br>
--Pedro<br>
<br>
PS. Some people here may have institutional leverage. Why we
do not think on applying for a research project
humanities/natural science?
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<br>
El 07/10/2018 a las 19:45, Moisés André Nisenbaum escribió:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAJEAJqHYQDDaoWQtpA=R-1+nrtLeA2EuBM-7GieP+v_GkRBaNQ@mail.gmail.com">
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charset=utf-8">
<div dir="auto">
<div dir="auto">Wonderful to hear you FISers again :-)</div>
<div dir="auto">
<div dir="auto">I agree that it is an excellent and
interesting theme.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Thank you Pedro!</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Kind regards.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Abraços a todos!</div>
<div dir="auto">Moisés</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
<br>
<div data-smartmail="gmail_signature" dir="auto">Moisés
André Nisenbaum <br>
Enviado do celular.</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr">Em sex, 5 de out de 2018 14:26, Pedro C.
Marijuan <<a
href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>>
escreveu:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
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<p>Dear FIS Colleagues,</p>
<p>Around the beginnings of the new course, the
University of Zaragoza released the FIS list,
after the authentication process mandated by an
European Directive on Data Protection. The outcome
has been rather tough, from around 350 we have
been decimated to just 62. Provided that the most
active participants have renewed, we wouldn't see
much changes, although not very probably. The pity
now is the diminished broadcast of the
discussions, for many of the passive recipients
were more or less listening (and the warning
message in Spanish didn't help at all for their
awareness of the renewal process).<br>
</p>
<p>In any case, life goes on. There is a ISIS and
FIS Conference next year (in the US, chaired by
Terry Deacon). In the future list discussions we
should keep this in mind and progressively put the
focus on it. The present "slimming cure" of the
list might also be a good occasion to reflect on
its trajectory and aims. Are we fulfilling the
foundational goals? Not so much yet... Well, from
my part, I have a novel theme that I consider of
interest to this basic discussion. Several
readings of mine during this year have neatly
converged on the power of "narratives" in our
human communication. From economics, to political
science, to communication studies, to Media both
traditional and new, and essentially in literature
and oral traditions... In particular the approach
by Christopher Booker (2004, 2017) makes clear the
centrality of storytelling in our whole lives. He
is a controversial figure, but this book ("The
Seven Basic Plots: Why We Tell Stories") is a
master work. My only personal caveat is the
Jungian framework the author utilizes--is it
necessary? I do not think so. Translating his
ideas to common multidisciplinary language,
pertaining both to natural science and humanities,
would make for a great discussion. Right in the
center. My feeling is that he has achieved for
human communication what I have tried during
recent years for cellular communication.<br>
</p>
<p>And that's all! Little by little am getting used
to my new life "far from the madding crowd" of
local Faculty.</p>
<p>Friendly regards to all,</p>
<p>--Pedro<br>
</p>
<pre class="m_-6239670898511435712m_3184980170512236754moz-signature" cols="72">-------------------------------------------------
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
<a class="m_-6239670898511435712m_3184980170512236754moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>
<a class="m_-6239670898511435712m_3184980170512236754moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/</a>
------------------------------------------------- </pre>
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</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
-------------------------------------------------
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" moz-do-not-send="true">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/" moz-do-not-send="true">http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/</a>
------------------------------------------------- </pre>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br>
<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Fis mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" moz-do-not-send="true">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" moz-do-not-send="true">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
-----------------------------------------
Professor David (Dai) Griffiths
Professor of Education
School of Education and Psychology
The University of Bolton
Deane Road
Bolton, BL3 5AB
Office: M106
SKYPE: daigriffiths
Phones (please don't leave voice mail)
UK Mobile +44 (0)7491151559
Spanish Mobile: + 34 687955912
Work landline: + 44 (0)1204903598
email
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:d.e.griffiths@bolton.ac.uk" moz-do-not-send="true">d.e.griffiths@bolton.ac.uk</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dai.griffiths.1@gmail.com" moz-do-not-send="true">dai.griffiths.1@gmail.com</a></pre>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br>
<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Fis mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" moz-do-not-send="true">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" moz-do-not-send="true">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<p><br>
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
-------------------------------------------------
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" moz-do-not-send="true">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/" moz-do-not-send="true">http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/</a>
------------------------------------------------- </pre>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br>
<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Fis mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
-----------------------------------------
Professor David (Dai) Griffiths
Professor of Education
School of Education and Psychology
The University of Bolton
Deane Road
Bolton, BL3 5AB
Office: M106
SKYPE: daigriffiths
Phones (please don't leave voice mail)
UK Mobile +44 (0)7491151559
Spanish Mobile: + 34 687955912
Work landline: + 44 (0)1204903598
email
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:d.e.griffiths@bolton.ac.uk">d.e.griffiths@bolton.ac.uk</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dai.griffiths.1@gmail.com">dai.griffiths.1@gmail.com</a></pre>
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