<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:st1="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
<head>
<meta http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 11 (filtered medium)">
<!--[if !mso]>
<style>
v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
</style>
<![endif]--><o:SmartTagType
namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="PersonName"/>
<!--[if !mso]>
<style>
st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }
</style>
<![endif]-->
<style>
<!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Consolas;
panose-1:2 11 6 9 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0cm;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
p
{mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0cm;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0cm;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";}
pre
{margin:0cm;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Courier New";}
span.EmailStyle19
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:Arial;
color:navy;}
@page Section1
{size:595.3pt 841.9pt;
margin:70.85pt 70.85pt 70.85pt 70.85pt;}
div.Section1
{page:Section1;}
-->
</style>
<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">
<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]-->
</head>
<body lang=FR link=blue vlink=blue>
<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Stan,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Good, but things can also
run in the opposite direction. How about variety (plus more energy) generating
more variety, more possibilities and allowing new ‘information’ to
emerge? Standard logical analysis is inadequate because it cannot handle this
picture.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Joseph<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=3 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
Fis [mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es] <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On
Behalf Of </span></b>Stanley N Salthe<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> jeudi, 31 mai 2018 16:21<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> Burgin, Mark; fis<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [Fis] Is information
physical? A logical analysis</span></font><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Mark -- What Shannon referred to as 'entropy' was 'variety'.
'Information' per se was achieved by way of a reduction or winnowing of this
variety of possibilities, leaving 'information' to survive. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>STAN <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>On Wed, May 30, 2018 at 10:24 PM, Burgin, Mark <<a
href="mailto:mburgin@math.ucla.edu" target="_blank">mburgin@math.ucla.edu</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Dear Loet,<br>
Only one remark. There is no Shannon-type information but there is Shannon's
measure of information, which is called entropy. <br>
<br>
Sincerely,<br>
Mark<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>On 5/23/2018 10:44 PM, <st1:PersonName w:st="on">Loet Leydesdorff</st1:PersonName>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Dear Mark, Soren, and colleagues,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>The easiest distinction is perhaps Descartes' one between<i><span
style='font-style:italic'> res cogitans</span></i> and<i><span
style='font-style:italic'> res extensa</span></i> as two different realities.
Our knowledge in each case that things could have been different is not out
there in the world as something seizable such as piece of wood.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Similarly, uncertainty in the case of a distribution is not seizable,
but it can be expressed in bits of information (as one measure among others).
The grandiose step of Shannon was, in my opinion, to enable us to
operationalize Descartes'<i><span style='font-style:italic'> cogitans</span></i> and
make it amenable to the measurement as information. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Shannon-type information is dimensionless. It is provided with meaning
by a system of reference (e.g., an observer or a discourse). Some of us prefer
to call only thus-meaningful information real information because it is
embedded. One can also distinguish it from Shannon-type information as
Bateson-type information. The latter can be debated as physical.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>In the ideal case of an elastic collision of "billard balls",
the physical entropy (S= kB * H) goes to zero. However, if two particles
have a distribution of momenta of 3:7 before a head-on collision, this
distribution will change in the ideal case into 7:3. Consequently, the
probabilistic entropy is .7 log2 (.7/.3) + .3 log2 (.3/.7) = .86 –
.37 = .49 bits of information. One thus can prove that this information is not
physical.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Best,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Loet<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div id="m_-8619733060945975364signature_old">
<div id="m_-8619733060945975364x7c68ad0f49114b1">
<div id="m_-8619733060945975364x337b22579712426abf55c20f258d0a74">
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=3 width="100%" align=center>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><st1:PersonName
w:st="on"><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Loet Leydesdorff</span></font></st1:PersonName><font
size=2 color="#1f497d"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:#1F497D'>Professor emeritus, University of Amsterdam<br>
Amsterdam School of Communication Research (ASCoR)</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color="#44546a" face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
color:#44546A'><a href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net" target="_blank"
title="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net"><font size=2><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>loet@leydesdorff.net
</span></font></a></span></font><font size=2 color="#1f497d"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'>; </span></font><font color="#44546a"><span
style='color:#44546A'><a href="http://www.leydesdorff.net/" target="_blank"
title="http://www.leydesdorff.net/"><font size=2><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>http://www.leydesdorff.net/</span></font></a></span></font><font
size=2 color="#1f497d"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'> <br>
</span></font><font size=1><span style='font-size:9.0pt'>Associate Faculty, </span></font><font
color="#44546a"><span style='color:#44546A'><a
href="http://www.sussex.ac.uk/spru/" target="_blank"><font size=1><span
style='font-size:9.0pt'>SPRU, </span></font></a></span></font><font size=1><span
style='font-size:9.0pt'>University of Sussex; </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=1 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:9.0pt'>Guest Professor </span></font><font
color="#44546a"><span style='color:#44546A'><a
href="http://www.zju.edu.cn/english/" target="_blank"><font size=1><span
style='font-size:9.0pt'>Zhejiang Univ.</span></font></a></span></font><font
size=1><span style='font-size:9.0pt'>, Hangzhou; Visiting Professor, </span></font><font
color="#44546a"><span style='color:#44546A'><a
href="http://www.istic.ac.cn/Eng/brief_en.html" target="_blank"><font size=1><span
style='font-size:9.0pt'>ISTIC, </span></font></a></span></font><font size=1><span
style='font-size:9.0pt'>Beijing;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=1 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:9.0pt'>Visiting Fellow, </span></font><font
color="#44546a"><span style='color:#44546A'><a href="http://www.bbk.ac.uk/"
target="_blank"><font size=1><span style='font-size:9.0pt'>Birkbeck</span></font></a></span></font><font
size=1><span style='font-size:9.0pt'>, University of London; </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=1 color="#44546a" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#44546A'><a
href="http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en"
target="_blank">http://scholar.google.com/<wbr>citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&<wbr>hl=en</a></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="m_-8619733060945975364x337b22579712426abf55c20f258d0a74">
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>------ Original Message ------<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>From: "Burgin, Mark" <<a
href="mailto:mburgin@math.ucla.edu" target="_blank">mburgin@math.ucla.edu</a>><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>To: "<st1:PersonName w:st="on">Søren Brier</st1:PersonName>"
<<a href="mailto:sbr.msc@cbs.dk" target="_blank">sbr.msc@cbs.dk</a>>;
"Krassimir Markov" <<a href="mailto:markov@foibg.com"
target="_blank">markov@foibg.com</a>>; <a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es"
target="_blank">"fis@listas.unizar.es"</a> <<a
href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Sent: 5/24/2018 4:23:53 AM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Subject: Re: [Fis] Is information physical? A logical analysis<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div id="m_-8619733060945975364x2d3837418cdb4d5">
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Dear Søren,<br>
You response perfectly supports my analysis. Indeed, for you only the Physical
World is real. So, information has to by physical if it is real, or it cannot
be real if it is not physical.<br>
Acceptance of a more advanced model of the World, which includes other
realities, as it was demonstrated in my book “Structural Reality,”
allows understand information as real but not physical.<br>
<br>
</span></font><font color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-family:Calibri;
color:black'> Sincerely,<br>
Mark</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>On 5/17/2018 3:29 AM, <st1:PersonName
w:st="on">Søren Brier</st1:PersonName> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:
Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Dear Mark</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:
Calibri;color:#1F497D'> </span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Using ’physical’ this way it
just tends to mean ’real’, but that raises the problem of how to
define real. Is chance real? I Gödel’s theorem or mathematics and logic
in general (the world of form)? Is subjectivity and self-awareness, qualia? I
do believe you are a conscious subject with feelings, but I cannot feel it, see
it, measure it. Is it physical then?? I only see what you write and your behavior.
And are the meaning of your sentences physical? So here we touch phenomenology
(the experiential) and hermeneutics (meaning and interpretation) and more
generally semiotics (the meaning of signs in cognition and communication). We
have problems encompassing these aspects in the natural, the quantitative and
the technical sciences that makes up the foundation of most conceptions of
information science.</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'> </span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'> Best</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>
Søren</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'> </span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><font
size=2 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black;font-weight:bold'>Fra:</span></font></b><font size=2 color=black
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'>
Fis <a href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank"><fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es></a>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>På vegne af </span></b>Krassimir Markov<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sendt:</span></b> 17. maj 2018 11:33<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Til:</span></b> <a
href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>;
Burgin, Mark <a href="mailto:mburgin@math.ucla.edu" target="_blank"><mburgin@math.ucla.edu></a><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Emne:</span></b> Re: [Fis] Is information
physical? A logical analysis</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=4 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'>Dear Mark and FIS Colleagues,</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=4 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=4 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'>First of all. I support the idea of Mark to write a paper and to
publish it in IJ ITA.</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=4 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'>It will be nice to continue our common work this way.</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=4 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=4 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'>At the second place, I want to point that till now the discussion
on </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><font
size=4 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black;font-weight:bold'>Is information physical?</span></font></b><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=4 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'>was more-less chaotic – we had no thesis and antithesis to
discuss and to come to some conclusions.</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=4 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'>I think now, the Mark’s letter may be used as the needed
thesis.</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=4 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'>What about the ant-thesis? Well, I will try to write something
below.</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=4 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'>For me, physical, structural and mental are one and the
same.</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=4 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'>Mental means physical reflections and physical processes in the
Infos consciousness. I.e. “physical” include “mental”.</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=4 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'>Structure (as I understand this concept) is mental reflection of
the relationships “between” and/or “in” real (physical)
entities as well as “between” and/or “in” mental
(physical) entities.</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=4 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'>I.e. “physical” include “mental” include
“structural”.</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=4 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'>Finally, IF “information is physical, structural and
mental” THEN simply the “information is physical”!</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=4 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'>Friendly greetings</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=4 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'>Krassimir</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
background:whitesmoke'><b><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
color:black'> <a href="mailto:mburgin@math.ucla.edu" target="_blank"
title="mburgin@math.ucla.edu">Burgin, Mark</a> </span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
background:whitesmoke'><b><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black;font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></font></b><font
size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
color:black'> Thursday, May 17, 2018 5:20 AM</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
background:whitesmoke'><b><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black;font-weight:bold'>To:</span></font></b><font
size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
color:black'> <a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank"
title="fis@listas.unizar.es"></a><a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es"
target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a> </span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
background:whitesmoke'><b><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black;font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></font></b><font
size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
color:black'> Re: [Fis] Is information physical? A logical analysis</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=4 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'> Dear FISers,<br>
It was an interesting discussion, in which many highly intelligent
and creative individuals participated expressing different points of view. Many
interesting ideas were suggested. As a conclusion to this discussion, I would
like to suggest a logical analysis of the problem based on our intrinsic and
often tacit assumptions.<br>
<br>
To great extent, our possibility to answer the question “Is
information physical? “ depends on our model of the world. Note that here
physical means the nature of information and not its substance, or more
exactly, the substance of its carrier, which can be physical, chemical
biological or quantum. By the way, expression “quantum information”
is only the way of expressing that the carrier of information belongs to the
quantum level of nature. This is similar to the expressions “mixed
numbers” or “decimal numbers”, which are only forms or number
representations and not numbers themselves.<br>
<br>
If we assume that there is only the physical world, we have, at first,
to answer the question “Does information exist? “ All FISers assume
that information exists. Otherwise, they would not participate in our
discussions. However, some people think differently (cf., for example, Furner,
J. (2004) Information studies without information).<br>
<br>
Now assuming that information exists, we have only one option,
namely, to admit that information is physical because only physical things
exist.<br>
If we assume that there are two worlds - information is physical,
we have three options assuming that information exists:<br>
- information is physical<br>
- information is mental<br>
- information is both physical and mental <br>
<br>
Finally, coming to the Existential Triad of the World, which comprises three
worlds - the physical world, the mental world and the world of structures, we
have seven options assuming that information exists:<br>
- information is physical<br>
- information is mental<br>
- information is structural <br>
- information is both physical and mental <br>
- information is both physical and structural <br>
- information is both structural and mental <br>
- information is physical, structural and mental <br>
<br>
The solution suggested by the general theory of information tries to avoid
unnecessary multiplication of essences suggesting that information (in a
general sense) exists in all three worlds but … in the physical world, it
is called <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>energy</span></b>, in the mental
world, it is called <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>mental energy</span></b>,
and in the world of structures, it is called <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>information</span></b>
(in the strict sense). This conclusion well correlates with the suggestion of
Mark Johnson that information is both physical and not physical only the
general theory of information makes this idea more exact and testable.<br>
In addition, being in the world of structures, information in the
strict sense is represented in two other worlds by its representations and
carriers. Note that any representation of information is its carrier but not
each carrier of information is its representation. For instance, an envelope
with a letter is a carrier of information in this letter but it is not its
representation.<br>
Besides, it is possible to call all three faces of information by
the name energy - physical energy, mental energy and structural energy.<br>
<br>
Finally, as many interesting ideas were suggested in this
discussion, may be Krassimir will continue his excellent initiative combining
the most interesting contributions into a paper with the title<br>
<wbr> <wbr>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Is information physical?</span></b><br>
and publish it in his esteemed Journal.<br>
<br>
Sincerely,<br>
Mark Burgin</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:
black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'>On 5/11/2018 3:20 AM, Karl Javorszky wrote:</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'>Dear Arturo, </span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'>There were some reports in clinical psychology, about 30 years
ago, that relate to the question whether a machine can pretend to be a
therapist. That was the time as computers could newly be used in an interactive
fashion, and the Rogers techniques were a current discovery.</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'>(Rogers developed a dialogue method where one does not address the
contents of what the patient says, but rather the emotional aspects of the
message, assumed to be at work in the patient.)</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'>They then said, that in some cases it was indistinguishable,
whether a human or a machine provides the answer to a patient's elucidations. </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'>Progress since then has surely made possible to create machines
that are indistinguishable in interaction to humans. Indeed, what is called
"expert systems ", are widely used in many fields. If the interaction
is rational, that is: formally equivalent to a logical discussion modi
Wittgenstein, the difference in: "who arrived at this answer, machinery or
a human", becomes irrelevant. </span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'>Artistry, intuition, creativity are presently seen as not possible
to translate into Wittgenstein sentences. Maybe the inner instincts are not yet
well understood. But!: there are some who are busily undermining the current
fundamentals of rational thinking. So there is hope that we shall live to
experience the ultimate disillusionment, namely that humans are a
combinatorial tautology. </span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'>Accordingly, may I respectfully express opposing views to what you
state: that machines and humans are of incompatible builds. There are hints
that as far as rational capabilities go, the same principles apply. There is a
rest, you say, which is not of this kind. The counter argument says that
irrational processes do not take place in organisms, therefore what you refer
to belongs to the main process, maybe like waste belongs to the organism's
principle. This view draws a picture of a functional biotope, in which the
waste of one kind of organism is raw material for a different kind. </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'>Karl </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'><<a href="mailto:tozziarturo@libero.it" target="_blank"></a><a
href="mailto:tozziarturo@libero.it" target="_blank">tozziarturo@libero.it</a>>
schrieb am Do., 10. Mai 2018 15:24:</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;
margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<p style='margin-top:0cm'><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'>Dear Bruno, <br>
You state: <br>
"IF indexical digital mechanism is correct in the cognitive science,<br>
THEN “physical” has to be defined entirely in arithmetical term,
i.e. “physical” becomes a mathematical notion.<br>
...Indexical digital mechanism is the hypothesis that there is a level of
description of the brain/body such that I would survive, or “not feel any
change” if my brain/body is replaced by a digital machine emulating the
brain/body at that level of description".</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Calibri;color:black'>The problem of your account is the following:<br>
You say "IF" and "indexical digital mechanism is the
HYPOTHESIS".<br>
Therefore, you are talking of an HYPOTHESIS: it is not empirically tested and
it is not empirically testable. You are starting with a sort of
postulate: I, and other people, do not agree with it. The current
neuroscience does not state that our brain/body is (or can be replaced by) a
digital machine.<br>
In other words, your "IF" stands for something that possibly does not
exist in our real world. Here your entire building falls down. </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div
id="m_-8619733060945975364m_1048372877214317129mail-app-auto-default-signature">
<p><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Calibri;color:black'>--<br>
Inviato da Libero Mail per Android</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'>giovedì, 10 maggio 2018, 02:46PM +02:00 da Bruno Marchal <a
href="mailto:marchal@ulb.ac.be" target="_blank">marchal@ulb.ac.be</a>:<br>
<br>
</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #85AF31 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 8.0pt;
margin-left:7.5pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<div>
<div
id="m_-8619733060945975364m_1048372877214317129style_15259565360000035165_BODY">
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'>(This mail has been sent previously , but without success. I
resend it, with minor changes). Problems due to different accounts. It was my
first comment to Mark Burgin new thread “Is information physical?”.</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'>Dear Mark, Dear Colleagues, </span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'>Apology for not answering the mails in the chronological orders,
as my new computer classifies them in some mysterious way!</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'>This is my first post of the week. I might answer comment, if any,
at the end of the week.</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'>On 25 Apr 2018, at 03:47, Burgin, Mark <<a
href="mailto:mburgin@math.ucla.edu" target="_blank"></a><a
href="mailto:mburgin@math.ucla.edu" target="_blank">mburgin@math.ucla.edu</a>>
wrote:</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p style='background:white'><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'>Dear Colleagues,</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='background:white'><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'>I would like to
suggest the new topic for discussion</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='background:white'><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'> <wbr>
Is information physical?</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:
black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'>That is an important topic indeed, very close to what I am working
on. </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'>My result here is that </span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><u><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black;font-weight:bold'>IF</span></font></u></b><font color=black
face=Calibri><span style='font-family:Calibri;color:black'> indexical digital
mechanism is correct in the cognitive science, </span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><u><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black;font-weight:bold'>THEN</span></font></u></b><font color=black
face=Calibri><span style='font-family:Calibri;color:black'>
“physical” has to be defined entirely in arithmetical term, i.e.
“physical” becomes a mathematical notion.</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'>The proof is constructive. It shows exactly how to derive physics
from Arithmetic (the reality, not the theory. I use “reality”
instead of “model" (logician’s term, because physicists use
“model" for “theory").</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'>Indexical digital mechanism is the hypothesis that there is a
level of description of the brain/body such that I would survive, or “not
feel any change” if my brain/body is replaced by a digital machine
emulating the brain/body at that level of description.</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'>Not only information is not physical, but matter, time, space, and
all physical objects become part of the universal machine phenomenology.
Physics is reduced to arithmetic, or, equivalently, to any Turing-complete
machinery. Amazingly Arithmetic (even the tiny semi-computable part of
arithmetic) is Turing complete (Turing Universal).</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'>The basic idea is that:</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'>1) no universal machine can distinguish if she is executed by an
arithmetical reality or by a physical reality. And,</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'>2) all universal machines are executed in arithmetic, and they are
necessarily undetermined on the set of of all its continuations emulated in
arithmetic. </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'>That reduces physics to a statistics on all computations relative
to my actual state, and see from some first person points of view (something I
can describe more precisely in some future post perhaps).</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'>Put in that way, the proof is not constructive, as, if we are
machine, we cannot know which machine we are. But Gödel’s incompleteness
can be used to recover this constructively for a simpler machine than us, like
Peano arithmetic. This way of proceeding enforces the distinction between first
and third person views (and six others!).</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'>I have derived already many feature of quantum mechanics from this
(including the possibility of quantum computer) a long time ago. I was
about sure this would refute Mechanism, until I learned about quantum
mechanics, which verifies all the most startling predictions of Indexical
Mechanism, unless we add the controversial wave collapse reduction principle.</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'>The curious “many-worlds” becomes the obvious (in
arithmetic) many computations (up to some equivalence quotient). The weird
indeterminacy becomes the simpler amoeba like duplication. The non-cloning of
matter becomes obvious: as any piece of matter is the result of the first
person indeterminacy (the first person view of the amoeba undergoing a
duplication, …) on infinitely many computations. This entails also that
neither matter appearance nor consciousness are Turing emulable per se, as the
whole arithmetical reality—which is a highly non computable notion as we
know since Gödel—plays a key role. Note this makes Digital Physics
leaning to inconsistency, as it implies indexical computationalism which
implies the negation of Digital Physics (unless my “body” is the
entire physical universe, which I rather doubt).</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font
size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<p style='background:white'><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'>My opinion is
presented below:</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
background:white'><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
background:white'><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
background:white'><font size=2 color=black face=Consolas><span
style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;color:black'> Why some
people erroneously think that information is physical</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
background:white'><font size=2 color=black face=Consolas><span
style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
background:white'><font size=2 color=black face=Consolas><span
style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;color:black'> The main
reason to think that information is physical is the strong belief of many
people, especially, scientists that there is only physical reality, which is
studied by science. At the same time, people encounter something that they call
information.</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
background:white'><font size=2 color=black face=Consolas><span
style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;color:black'> When
people receive a letter, they comprehend that it is information because with
the letter they receive information. The letter is physical, i.e., a physical
object. As a result, people start thinking that information is physical. When
people receive an e-mail, they comprehend that it is information because with
the e-mail they receive information. The e-mail comes to the computer in the
form of electromagnetic waves, which are physical. As a result, people start
thinking even more that information is physical.</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
background:white'><font size=2 color=black face=Consolas><span
style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;color:black'> However,
letters, electromagnetic waves and actually all physical objects are only
carriers or containers of information.</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
background:white'><font size=2 color=black face=Consolas><span
style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;color:black'> To
understand this better, let us consider a textbook. Is possible to say that
this book is knowledge? Any reasonable person will tell that the textbook
contains knowledge but is not knowledge itself. In the same way, the textbook
contains information but is not information itself. The same is true for
letters, e-mails, electromagnetic waves and other physical objects because all
of them only contain information but are not information. For instance, as we
know, different letters can contain the same information. Even if we make an
identical copy of a letter or any other text, then the letter and its copy will
be different physical objects (physical things) but they will contain the same
information.</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
background:white'><font size=2 color=black face=Consolas><span
style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;color:black'>
Information belongs to a different (non-physical) world of knowledge, data and
similar essences. In spite of this, information can act on physical objects
(physical bodies) and this action also misleads people who think that
information is physical.</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:
black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'>OK. The reason is that we can hardly imagine how immaterial or non
physical objects can alter the physical realm. It is the usual problem faced by
dualist ontologies. With Indexical computationalism we recover many dualities,
but they belong to the phenomenologies.</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font
size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
background:white'><font size=2 color=black face=Consolas><span
style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;color:black'> One more
misleading property of information is that people can measure it. This brings
an erroneous assumption that it is possible to measure only physical essences.
Naturally, this brings people to the erroneous conclusion that information is
physical. However, measuring information is essentially different than
measuring physical quantities, i.e., weight. There are no “scales”
that measure information. Only human intellect can do this.</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'>OK. I think all intellect can do that, not just he human one.</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'>Now, the reason why people believe in the physical is always a
form of the “knocking table” argument. They knocks on the table and
say “you will not tell me that this table is unreal”.</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'>I have got so many people giving me that argument, that I have
made dreams in which I made that argument, or even where I was convinced by
that argument … until I wake up.</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'>When we do metaphysics with the scientific method, this
“dream argument” illustrates that seeing, measuring, … cannot
prove anything ontological. A subjective experience proves only the
phenomenological existence of consciousness, and nothing more. It shows that
although there are plenty of strong evidences for a material reality, there are
no evidences (yet) for a primitive or primary matter (and that is why, I think,
Aristotle assumes it quasi explicitly, against Plato, and plausibly against
Pythagorus).</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'>Mechanism forces a coming back to Plato, where the worlds of ideas
is the world of programs, or information, or even just numbers, since very
elementary arithmetic (PA without induction, + the predecessor axiom) is
already Turing complete (it contains what I have named a Universal Dovetailer:
a program which generates *and* executes all programs).</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'>So I agree with you: information is not physical. I claim that if
we assume Mechanism (Indexical computationalism) matter itself is also not
*primarily* physical: it is all in the “head of the universal
machine/number” (so to speak).</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'>And this provides a test for primary matter: it is enough to find
if there is a discrepancy between the physics that we infer from the
observation, and the physics that we extract from “the head” of the
machine. This took me more than 30 years of work, but the results obtained up
to now is that there is no discrepancies. I have compared the quantum logic
imposed by incompleteness (formally) on the semi-computable (partial recursive,
sigma_1) propositions, with most quantum logics given by physicists, and it
fits rather well.</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'>Best regards,</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'>Bruno</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Fis mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br>
<a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" target="_blank">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-<wbr>bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Fis mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br>
<a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" target="_blank">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-<wbr>bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'><br>
<br>
</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<pre><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:black'>______________________________<wbr>_________________<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>Fis mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'><a
href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'><a
href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" target="_blank">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-<wbr>bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></blockquote>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'>
<hr size=3 width="100%" align=center>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Fis mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br>
<a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" target="_blank">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-<wbr>bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Fis mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br>
<a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" target="_blank">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-<wbr>bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div id="DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2"><br /> <table style="border-top: 1px solid #D3D4DE;">
<tr>
<td style="width: 55px; padding-top: 18px;"><a href="https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient" target="_blank"><img src="https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange-animated-no-repeat-v1.gif" alt="" width="46" height="29" style="width: 46px; height: 29px;" /></a></td>
<td style="width: 470px; padding-top: 17px; color: #41424e; font-size: 13px; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; line-height: 18px;">Garanti sans virus. <a href="https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient" target="_blank" style="color: #4453ea;">www.avast.com</a> </td>
</tr>
</table>
<a href="#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2" width="1" height="1"> </a></div></body>
</html>