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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Dear Christoph<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">I am not sure what you mean. In my understanding the important dynamics in Peirce’s pragmaticist semiotics is that symbols
grow and create habits in a web of signs in nature as well as in culture viewing the central dynamic process in the cosmos as well as man to be of symbolic nature that through evolution and history develops reasoning in many interlocking dimension.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Best<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"> Søren<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Christophe Menant <Christophe.Menant@hotmail.fr>
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<b>Sent:</b> 25. maj 2018 09:08<br>
<b>To:</b> Søren Brier <sbr.msc@cbs.dk>; fis@listas.unizar.es<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Fis] Is information physical? A logical analysis<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p><span lang="EN-US" style="color:black;mso-fareast-language:FR">Dear Soren, <br>
You are right to recall that a transdisciplinary theory of cognition and communication has to include meaning. But I’m not sure that the Peircean approach is enough for that.<br>
The triad (Object, Sign, Interpretant) positions the Interpretant as being the meaning of the Sign created by the Interpreter. But Peirce does not tell much about a possible content of the Interpreter. He does not tell what is for him a process of meaning generation.
And this, I feel, should bring us to be cautious about using Peirce in subjects dealing with meaning generation. <br>
</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Best<br>
Christophe<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">De :</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> Fis <<a href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es">fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es</a>>
de la part de Søren Brier <<a href="mailto:sbr.msc@cbs.dk">sbr.msc@cbs.dk</a>><br>
<b>Envoyé :</b> jeudi 24 mai 2018 17:44<br>
<b>À :</b> Loet Leydesdorff; Burgin, Mark; Krassimir Markov; <a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es">
fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br>
<b>Objet :</b> Re: [Fis] Is information physical? A logical analysis</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Dear Mark, Loet and others</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="xmsonormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">My point was that all the aspects I mention are part of a reality that is bigger than what we can grasp under the realm of physical science. Reality
is bigger than physicalism. Quantitative forms of information measurements can be useful in many ways, but they are not sufficient for at transdisciplinary theory of cognition and communication. As Loet write then we have to include meaning. In what framework
can we do that? The natural science do not have experience and meaning in their conceptual foundations. We can try to develop a logical approach like Mark and Peirce do. Where Mark stays in the structural dimension and Loet wants to enter res cogitans by
probability measures, , maybe because a philosophical framework that does not allow meaning to be real. But Peirce keeps working with the metaphysical stipulations until he reaches a framework that can integrate experience, meaning and logic in one theory,
namely his triadic pragmaticist semiotics. I am fascinated by it because I think it is unique, but many researcher do not want to use it, because its change in metaphysics in developing out of Descartes dualism, all though most of us agrees that it is too
limited to work in the modern scientific ontology of irreversible time, that Prigogine developed. Who other than Peirce has developed on non-dualist non-foundationalist transdisciplinary semiotic process philosophy integrating animal (biosemiotics), human
evolution, history and language development in a consistent theory of the development of human consciousness?</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="xmsonormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="xmsonormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Best</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="xmsonormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> Søren</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="xmsonormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="xmsonormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">
<a href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net">loet@leydesdorff.net</a> <<a href="mailto:leydesdorff@gmail.com">leydesdorff@gmail.com</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Loet Leydesdorff<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 24. maj 2018 07:45<br>
<b>To:</b> Burgin, Mark <<a href="mailto:mburgin@math.ucla.edu">mburgin@math.ucla.edu</a>>; Søren Brier <<a href="mailto:sbr.msc@cbs.dk">sbr.msc@cbs.dk</a>>; Krassimir Markov <<a href="mailto:markov@foibg.com">markov@foibg.com</a>>;
<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es">fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re[2]: [Fis] Is information physical? A logical analysis</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black">Dear Mark, Soren, and colleagues,</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black">The easiest distinction is perhaps Descartes' one between<i> res cogitans</i> and<i> res extensa</i> as two different realities. Our knowledge in each case that
things could have been different is not out there in the world as something seizable such as piece of wood.</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black">Similarly, uncertainty in the case of a distribution is not seizable, but it can be expressed in bits of information (as one measure among others). The grandiose
step of Shannon was, in my opinion, to enable us to operationalize Descartes'<i> cogitans</i> and make it amenable to the measurement as information. </span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black">Shannon-type information is dimensionless. It is provided with meaning by a system of reference (e.g., an observer or a discourse). Some of us prefer to call only
thus-meaningful information real information because it is embedded. One can also distinguish it from Shannon-type information as Bateson-type information. The latter can be debated as physical.</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black">In the ideal case of an elastic collision of "billard balls", the physical entropy (S= kB * H) goes to zero. However, if two particles have a distribution of momenta
of 3:7 before a head-on collision, this distribution will change in the ideal case into 7:3. Consequently, the probabilistic entropy is .7 log2 (.7/.3) + .3 log2 (.3/.7) = .86 – .37 = .49 bits of information. One thus can prove that this information is not
physical.</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black">Best,</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black">Loet</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Loet Leydesdorff
</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Professor emeritus, University of Amsterdam<br>
Amsterdam School of Communication Research (ASCoR)</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#44546A"><a href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net" title="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net" id="LPlnk770277"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">loet@leydesdorff.net
</span></a></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">;
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#44546A"><a href="http://www.leydesdorff.net/" title="http://www.leydesdorff.net/" id="LPlnk713433"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">http://www.leydesdorff.net/</span></a></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">
<br>
</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Associate Faculty,
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#44546A"><a href="http://www.sussex.ac.uk/spru/" id="LPlnk631948"><span style="font-size:9.0pt">SPRU,
</span></a></span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">University of Sussex;
</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Guest Professor
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#44546A"><a href="http://www.zju.edu.cn/english/" id="LPlnk809612"><span style="font-size:9.0pt">Zhejiang Univ.</span></a></span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">,
Hangzhou; Visiting Professor, </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#44546A"><a href="http://www.istic.ac.cn/Eng/brief_en.html" id="LPlnk636806"><span style="font-size:9.0pt">ISTIC,
</span></a></span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Beijing;</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Visiting Fellow,
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#44546A"><a href="http://www.bbk.ac.uk/" id="LPlnk567513"><span style="font-size:9.0pt">Birkbeck</span></a></span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">,
University of London; </span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="xmsonormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#44546A"><a href="http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en" id="LPlnk328569">http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en</a></span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black">------ Original Message ------</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black">From: "Burgin, Mark" <<a href="mailto:mburgin@math.ucla.edu" id="LPlnk657586">mburgin@math.ucla.edu</a>></span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black">To: "Søren Brier" <<a href="mailto:sbr.msc@cbs.dk" id="LPlnk508778">sbr.msc@cbs.dk</a>>; "Krassimir Markov" <<a href="mailto:markov@foibg.com" id="LPlnk992219">markov@foibg.com</a>>;
"<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" id="LPlnk615825">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>" <<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" id="LPlnk826940">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>></span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black">Sent: 5/24/2018 4:23:53 AM</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black">Subject: Re: [Fis] Is information physical? A logical analysis</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black">Dear Søren,<br>
You response perfectly supports my analysis. Indeed, for you only the Physical World is real. So, information has to by physical if it is real, or it cannot be real if it is not physical.<br>
Acceptance of a more advanced model of the World, which includes other realities, as it was demonstrated in my book “Structural Reality,” allows understand information as real but not physical.<br>
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</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> Sincerely,<br>
Mark</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black">On 5/17/2018 3:29 AM, Søren Brier wrote:</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Dear Mark</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="xmsonormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Using ’physical’ this way it just tends to mean ’real’, but that raises the problem of how to define real. Is chance real? I Gödel’s theorem or
mathematics and logic in general (the world of form)? Is subjectivity and self-awareness, qualia? I do believe you are a conscious subject with feelings, but I cannot feel it, see it, measure it. Is it physical then?? I only see what you write and your behavior.
And are the meaning of your sentences physical? So here we touch phenomenology (the experiential) and hermeneutics (meaning and interpretation) and more generally semiotics (the meaning of signs in cognition and communication). We have problems encompassing
these aspects in the natural, the quantitative and the technical sciences that makes up the foundation of most conceptions of information science.</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="xmsonormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="xmsonormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> Best</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="xmsonormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> Søren</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="xmsonormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Fra:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> Fis
<a href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es" id="LPlnk788160"><fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es></a>
<b>På vegne af </b>Krassimir Markov<br>
<b>Sendt:</b> 17. maj 2018 11:33<br>
<b>Til:</b> <a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" id="LPlnk656964">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>; Burgin, Mark
<a href="mailto:mburgin@math.ucla.edu" id="LPlnk179019"><mburgin@math.ucla.edu></a><br>
<b>Emne:</b> Re: [Fis] Is information physical? A logical analysis</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Dear Mark and FIS Colleagues,</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">First of all. I support the idea of Mark to write a paper and to publish it in IJ ITA.</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">It will be nice to continue our common work this way.</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">At the second place, I want to point that till now the discussion on
</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><b><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Is information physical?</span></b><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">was more-less chaotic – we had no thesis and antithesis to discuss and to come to some conclusions.</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">I think now, the Mark’s letter may be used as the needed thesis.</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">What about the ant-thesis? Well, I will try to write something below.</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">For me, physical, structural and mental are one and the same.</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Mental means physical reflections and physical processes in the Infos consciousness. I.e. “physical” include “mental”.</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Structure (as I understand this concept) is mental reflection of the relationships “between” and/or “in” real (physical) entities as well as “between” and/or “in”
mental (physical) entities.</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">I.e. “physical” include “mental” include “structural”.</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Finally, IF “information is physical, structural and mental” THEN simply the “information is physical”!</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Friendly greetings</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Krassimir</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal" style="background:whitesmoke"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black">
<a href="mailto:mburgin@math.ucla.edu" title="mburgin@math.ucla.edu" id="LPlnk320233">
Burgin, Mark</a> </span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal" style="background:whitesmoke"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black">Sent:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"> Thursday, May 17, 2018 5:20 AM</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal" style="background:whitesmoke"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black">To:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black">
<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" title="fis@listas.unizar.es" id="LPlnk294090">
fis@listas.unizar.es</a> </span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal" style="background:whitesmoke"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black">Subject:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"> Re: [Fis] Is information physical?
A logical analysis</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> Dear FISers,<br>
It was an interesting discussion, in which many highly intelligent and creative individuals participated expressing different points of view. Many interesting ideas were suggested. As a conclusion to this discussion, I would like to suggest a logical analysis
of the problem based on our intrinsic and often tacit assumptions.<br>
<br>
To great extent, our possibility to answer the question “Is information physical? “ depends on our model of the world. Note that here physical means the nature of information and not its substance, or more exactly, the substance of its carrier, which can
be physical, chemical biological or quantum. By the way, expression “quantum information” is only the way of expressing that the carrier of information belongs to the quantum level of nature. This is similar to the expressions “mixed numbers” or “decimal numbers”,
which are only forms or number representations and not numbers themselves.<br>
<br>
If we assume that there is only the physical world, we have, at first, to answer the question “Does information exist? “ All FISers assume that information exists. Otherwise, they would not participate in our discussions. However, some people think differently
(cf., for example, Furner, J. (2004) Information studies without information).<br>
<br>
Now assuming that information exists, we have only one option, namely, to admit that information is physical because only physical things exist.<br>
If we assume that there are two worlds - information is physical, we have three options assuming that information exists:<br>
- information is physical<br>
- information is mental<br>
- information is both physical and mental <br>
<br>
Finally, coming to the Existential Triad of the World, which comprises three worlds - the physical world, the mental world and the world of structures, we have seven options assuming that information exists:<br>
- information is physical<br>
- information is mental<br>
- information is structural <br>
- information is both physical and mental <br>
- information is both physical and structural <br>
- information is both structural and mental <br>
- information is physical, structural and mental <br>
<br>
The solution suggested by the general theory of information tries to avoid unnecessary multiplication of essences suggesting that information (in a general sense) exists in all three worlds but … in the physical world, it is called
<b>energy</b>, in the mental world, it is called <b>mental energy</b>, and in the world of structures, it is called
<b>information</b> (in the strict sense). This conclusion well correlates with the suggestion of Mark Johnson that information is both physical and not physical only the general theory of information makes this idea more exact and testable.<br>
In addition, being in the world of structures, information in the strict sense is represented in two other worlds by its representations and carriers. Note that any representation of information is its carrier but not each carrier of information is its representation.
For instance, an envelope with a letter is a carrier of information in this letter but it is not its representation.<br>
Besides, it is possible to call all three faces of information by the name energy - physical energy, mental energy and structural energy.<br>
<br>
Finally, as many interesting ideas were suggested in this discussion, may be Krassimir will continue his excellent initiative combining the most interesting contributions into a paper with the title<br>
<b>Is information physical?</b><br>
and publish it in his esteemed Journal.<br>
<br>
Sincerely,<br>
Mark Burgin<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">On 5/11/2018 3:20 AM, Karl Javorszky wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Dear Arturo,
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">There were some reports in clinical psychology, about 30 years ago, that relate to the question whether a machine can pretend to be a therapist. That was the time as computers
could newly be used in an interactive fashion, and the Rogers techniques were a current discovery.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">(Rogers developed a dialogue method where one does not address the contents of what the patient says, but rather the emotional aspects of the message, assumed to be at work in
the patient.)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">They then said, that in some cases it was indistinguishable, whether a human or a machine provides the answer to a patient's elucidations.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Progress since then has surely made possible to create machines that are indistinguishable in interaction to humans. Indeed, what is called "expert systems ", are widely used in
many fields. If the interaction is rational, that is: formally equivalent to a logical discussion modi Wittgenstein, the difference in: "who arrived at this answer, machinery or a human", becomes irrelevant.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Artistry, intuition, creativity are presently seen as not possible to translate into Wittgenstein sentences. Maybe the inner instincts are not yet well understood. But!: there
are some who are busily undermining the current fundamentals of rational thinking. So there is hope that we shall live to experience the ultimate disillusionment, namely that humans are a combinatorial tautology.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Accordingly, may I respectfully express opposing views to what you state: that machines and humans are of incompatible builds. There are hints that as far as rational capabilities
go, the same principles apply. There is a rest, you say, which is not of this kind. The counter argument says that irrational processes do not take place in organisms, therefore what you refer to belongs to the main process, maybe like waste belongs to the
organism's principle. This view draws a picture of a functional biotope, in which the waste of one kind of organism is raw material for a different kind.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Karl
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><<a href="mailto:tozziarturo@libero.it" id="LPlnk804277">tozziarturo@libero.it</a>> schrieb am Do., 10. Mai 2018 15:24:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Dear Bruno,
<br>
You state: <br>
"IF indexical digital mechanism is correct in the cognitive science,<br>
THEN “physical” has to be defined entirely in arithmetical term, i.e. “physical” becomes a mathematical notion.<br>
...Indexical digital mechanism is the hypothesis that there is a level of description of the brain/body such that I would survive, or “not feel any change” if my brain/body is replaced by a digital machine emulating the brain/body at that level of description".<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">The problem of your account is the following:<br>
You say "IF" and "indexical digital mechanism is the HYPOTHESIS".<br>
Therefore, you are talking of an HYPOTHESIS: it is not empirically tested and it is not empirically testable. You are starting with a sort of postulate: I, and other people, do not agree with it. The current neuroscience does not state that our brain/body
is (or can be replaced by) a digital machine.<br>
In other words, your "IF" stands for something that possibly does not exist in our real world. Here your entire building falls down.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">--<br>
Inviato da Libero Mail per Android<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">giovedì, 10 maggio 2018, 02:46PM +02:00 da Bruno Marchal
<a href="mailto:marchal@ulb.ac.be" id="LPlnk758147">marchal@ulb.ac.be</a>:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">(This mail has been sent previously , but without success. I resend it, with minor changes). Problems due to different accounts. It was my first comment to Mark Burgin new thread
“Is information physical?”.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Dear Mark, Dear Colleagues,
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Apology for not answering the mails in the chronological orders, as my new computer classifies them in some mysterious way!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">This is my first post of the week. I might answer comment, if any, at the end of the week.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">On 25 Apr 2018, at 03:47, Burgin, Mark <<a href="mailto:mburgin@math.ucla.edu" id="LPlnk298909">mburgin@math.ucla.edu</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Dear Colleagues,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="xmsonormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">I would like to suggest the new topic for discussion<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="xmsonormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> Is information physical?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">That is an important topic indeed, very close to what I am working on.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">My result here is that
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><b><u><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">IF</span></u></b><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> indexical digital mechanism is correct in the cognitive science,
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><b><u><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">THEN</span></u></b><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> “physical” has to be defined entirely in arithmetical term, i.e. “physical” becomes a mathematical
notion.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">The proof is constructive. It shows exactly how to derive physics from Arithmetic (the reality, not the theory. I use “reality” instead of “model" (logician’s term, because physicists
use “model" for “theory").<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Indexical digital mechanism is the hypothesis that there is a level of description of the brain/body such that I would survive, or “not feel any change” if my brain/body is replaced
by a digital machine emulating the brain/body at that level of description.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Not only information is not physical, but matter, time, space, and all physical objects become part of the universal machine phenomenology. Physics is reduced to arithmetic, or,
equivalently, to any Turing-complete machinery. Amazingly Arithmetic (even the tiny semi-computable part of arithmetic) is Turing complete (Turing Universal).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">The basic idea is that:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">1) no universal machine can distinguish if she is executed by an arithmetical reality or by a physical reality. And,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">2) all universal machines are executed in arithmetic, and they are necessarily undetermined on the set of of all its continuations emulated in arithmetic.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">That reduces physics to a statistics on all computations relative to my actual state, and see from some first person points of view (something I can describe more precisely in
some future post perhaps).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Put in that way, the proof is not constructive, as, if we are machine, we cannot know which machine we are. But Gödel’s incompleteness can be used to recover this constructively
for a simpler machine than us, like Peano arithmetic. This way of proceeding enforces the distinction between first and third person views (and six others!).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">I have derived already many feature of quantum mechanics from this (including the possibility of quantum computer) a long time ago. I was about sure this would refute Mechanism,
until I learned about quantum mechanics, which verifies all the most startling predictions of Indexical Mechanism, unless we add the controversial wave collapse reduction principle.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">The curious “many-worlds” becomes the obvious (in arithmetic) many computations (up to some equivalence quotient). The weird indeterminacy becomes the simpler amoeba like duplication.
The non-cloning of matter becomes obvious: as any piece of matter is the result of the first person indeterminacy (the first person view of the amoeba undergoing a duplication, …) on infinitely many computations. This entails also that neither matter appearance
nor consciousness are Turing emulable per se, as the whole arithmetical reality—which is a highly non computable notion as we know since Gödel—plays a key role. Note this makes Digital Physics leaning to inconsistency, as it implies indexical computationalism
which implies the negation of Digital Physics (unless my “body” is the entire physical universe, which I rather doubt).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
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<p class="xmsonormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">My opinion is presented below:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;color:black"> Why some people erroneously think that information is physical</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;color:black">
</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;color:black"> The main reason to think that information is physical is the strong belief of many people, especially, scientists that there is only physical reality,
which is studied by science. At the same time, people encounter something that they call information.</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;color:black"> When people receive a letter, they comprehend that it is information because with the letter they receive information. The letter is physical,
i.e., a physical object. As a result, people start thinking that information is physical. When people receive an e-mail, they comprehend that it is information because with the e-mail they receive information. The e-mail comes to the computer in the form of
electromagnetic waves, which are physical. As a result, people start thinking even more that information is physical.</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;color:black"> However, letters, electromagnetic waves and actually all physical objects are only carriers or containers of information.</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;color:black"> To understand this better, let us consider a textbook. Is possible to say that this book is knowledge? Any reasonable person will tell that the
textbook contains knowledge but is not knowledge itself. In the same way, the textbook contains information but is not information itself. The same is true for letters, e-mails, electromagnetic waves and other physical objects because all of them only contain
information but are not information. For instance, as we know, different letters can contain the same information. Even if we make an identical copy of a letter or any other text, then the letter and its copy will be different physical objects (physical things)
but they will contain the same information.</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;color:black"> Information belongs to a different (non-physical) world of knowledge, data and similar essences. In spite of this, information can act on physical
objects (physical bodies) and this action also misleads people who think that information is physical.</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">OK. The reason is that we can hardly imagine how immaterial or non physical objects can alter the physical realm. It is the usual problem faced by dualist ontologies. With Indexical
computationalism we recover many dualities, but they belong to the phenomenologies.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
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<p class="xmsonormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;color:black"> One more misleading property of information is that people can measure it. This brings an erroneous assumption that it is possible to measure only
physical essences. Naturally, this brings people to the erroneous conclusion that information is physical. However, measuring information is essentially different than measuring physical quantities, i.e., weight. There are no “scales” that measure information.
Only human intellect can do this.</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">OK. I think all intellect can do that, not just he human one.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Now, the reason why people believe in the physical is always a form of the “knocking table” argument. They knocks on the table and say “you will not tell me that this table is
unreal”.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">I have got so many people giving me that argument, that I have made dreams in which I made that argument, or even where I was convinced by that argument … until I wake up.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">When we do metaphysics with the scientific method, this “dream argument” illustrates that seeing, measuring, … cannot prove anything ontological. A subjective experience proves
only the phenomenological existence of consciousness, and nothing more. It shows that although there are plenty of strong evidences for a material reality, there are no evidences (yet) for a primitive or primary matter (and that is why, I think, Aristotle
assumes it quasi explicitly, against Plato, and plausibly against Pythagorus).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Mechanism forces a coming back to Plato, where the worlds of ideas is the world of programs, or information, or even just numbers, since very elementary arithmetic (PA without
induction, + the predecessor axiom) is already Turing complete (it contains what I have named a Universal Dovetailer: a program which generates *and* executes all programs).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">So I agree with you: information is not physical. I claim that if we assume Mechanism (Indexical computationalism) matter itself is also not *primarily* physical: it is all in
the “head of the universal machine/number” (so to speak).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">And this provides a test for primary matter: it is enough to find if there is a discrepancy between the physics that we infer from the observation, and the physics that we extract
from “the head” of the machine. This took me more than 30 years of work, but the results obtained up to now is that there is no discrepancies. I have compared the quantum logic imposed by incompleteness (formally) on the semi-computable (partial recursive,
sigma_1) propositions, with most quantum logics given by physicists, and it fits rather well.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Best regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Bruno<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">_______________________________________________<br>
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<p class="xmsonormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black">_______________________________________________</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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