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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><SPAN
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style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Dear Colleagues,</FONT></SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: ; COLOR: ; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt'></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><SPAN
style='COLOR: ; mso-ascii-font-family: calibri; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt'><FONT
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></FONT></SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: ; COLOR: ; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt'></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><SPAN
style='COLOR: ; mso-ascii-font-family: calibri; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"'><FONT
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">During activity of Infos’ consciousness, reflections
are combined and as a result the new ones may be created and stored in the Infos
memory.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: ; COLOR: ; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt'></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><SPAN
style='COLOR: ; mso-ascii-font-family: calibri; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: tahoma'><FONT
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Processing of some reflections may cause some
activity, too. </FONT></SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: ; COLOR: ; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt'></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: ; COLOR: ; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"'><FONT
face=Tahoma><FONT style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></FONT></FONT></SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: ; COLOR: ; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt'></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><SPAN
style='COLOR: ; mso-ascii-font-family: calibri; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: tahoma'><FONT
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">In other words, it doesn't matter what kind of Infos
is active – the result is the same!</FONT></SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: ; COLOR: ; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt'></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: ; COLOR: ; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"'><FONT
face=Tahoma><FONT style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></FONT></FONT></SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: ; COLOR: ; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt'></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><B><SPAN
style='COLOR: ; mso-ascii-font-family: calibri; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: tahoma'><FONT
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">INFORMATION IS PROCESSING the reflections that has as
final result an activity or new reflections</FONT></SPAN></B><SPAN
style='COLOR: ; mso-ascii-font-family: calibri; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: tahoma'><FONT
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: ; COLOR: ; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt'></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: ; COLOR: ; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"'><FONT
face=Tahoma><FONT style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></FONT></FONT></SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: ; COLOR: ; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt'></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><B><SPAN
style='COLOR: ; mso-ascii-font-family: calibri; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: tahoma; mso-bidi-font-size: 11.0pt'><FONT
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Usually, the results of such processing are called
“Information”.</FONT></SPAN></B><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: ; COLOR: ; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt'></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: ; COLOR: ; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"'><FONT
face=Tahoma><FONT style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></FONT></FONT></SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: ; COLOR: ; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt'></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><SPAN
style='COLOR: ; mso-ascii-font-family: calibri; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: tahoma'><FONT
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Of course, to be active means to be real (material,
physical) and to have energy for processing.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: ; COLOR: ; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt'></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><SPAN
style='COLOR: ; mso-ascii-font-family: calibri; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: tahoma'><FONT
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">To store reflections, material objects are needed,
i.e. “carriers”.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: ; COLOR: ; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt'></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: ; COLOR: ; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"'><FONT
face=Tahoma><FONT style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></FONT></FONT></SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: ; COLOR: ; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt'></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><SPAN
style='COLOR: ; mso-ascii-font-family: calibri; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: tahoma'><FONT
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">This is the main interconnection between mater,
energy, and information.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: ; COLOR: ; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt'></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: ; COLOR: ; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"'><FONT
face=Tahoma><FONT style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></FONT></FONT></SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: ; COLOR: ; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt'></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><SPAN
style='COLOR: ; mso-ascii-font-family: calibri; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: tahoma'><FONT
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">No Information exist anywhere – only reflections –
REAL, PHYSICAL REFLECTIONS!</FONT></SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: ; COLOR: ; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt'></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><SPAN
style='COLOR: ; mso-ascii-font-family: calibri; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: tahoma'><FONT
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Reflections in real, physical objects, including
living creatures.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: ; COLOR: ; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt'></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><SPAN
style='COLOR: ; mso-ascii-font-family: calibri; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: tahoma'><FONT
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Including Brain!</FONT></SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: ; COLOR: ; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt'></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: ; COLOR: ; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"'><FONT
face=Tahoma><FONT style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></FONT></FONT></SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: ; COLOR: ; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt'></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><SPAN
style='COLOR: ; mso-ascii-font-family: calibri; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: tahoma'><FONT
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Main difference between living and not living mater is
possibility for processing of reflections.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: ; COLOR: ; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt'></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: ; COLOR: ; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"'><FONT
face=Tahoma><FONT style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></FONT></FONT></SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: ; COLOR: ; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt'></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><SPAN
style='COLOR: ; mso-ascii-font-family: calibri; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: tahoma'><FONT
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Of course, many levels of such processing exist.
</FONT></SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: ; COLOR: ; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt'></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><SPAN
style='COLOR: ; mso-ascii-font-family: calibri; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: tahoma'><FONT
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Maybe, the most complex is the social
one.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: ; COLOR: ; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"'><FONT
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt" face=Tahoma> </FONT></SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: ; COLOR: ; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt'></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><SPAN
style='COLOR: ; mso-ascii-font-family: calibri; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: tahoma'><FONT
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Maybe, the simplest one is in the cells...
</FONT></SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: ; COLOR: ; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt'></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: ; COLOR: ; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt'><FONT
face="Times New Roman"><FONT
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></FONT></FONT></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><SPAN
style='COLOR: ; mso-ascii-font-family: calibri; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: tahoma'><FONT
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Could the Machine process reflections? Still no answer
...</FONT></SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: ; COLOR: ; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt'></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><SPAN
style='COLOR: ; mso-ascii-font-family: calibri; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: tahoma'><FONT
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">But the Computer can! </FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><SPAN
style='COLOR: ; mso-ascii-font-family: calibri; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: tahoma'><FONT
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"></FONT></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><SPAN
style='COLOR: ; mso-ascii-font-family: calibri; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: tahoma'><FONT
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">"That's All Folks!" </FONT></SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: ; COLOR: ; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt'></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><SPAN
style='COLOR: ; mso-ascii-font-family: calibri; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: tahoma'><FONT
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"></FONT></SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: ; COLOR: ; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt'></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><SPAN
style='COLOR: ; mso-ascii-font-family: calibri; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: tahoma'><FONT
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Friendly greetings</FONT></SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: ; COLOR: ; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt'></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><SPAN
style='COLOR: ; mso-ascii-font-family: calibri; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: calibri; mso-bidi-font-family: tahoma'><FONT
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Krassimir</FONT></SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: ; COLOR: ; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt'></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: ; COLOR: ; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"'><FONT
face=Tahoma><FONT style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></FONT></FONT></SPAN><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: ; COLOR: ; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt'></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><SPAN
style='FONT-FAMILY: ; COLOR: ; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"'><FONT
face=Tahoma><FONT style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></FONT></FONT></SPAN> </P>
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style='FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri"; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline'>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt tahoma">
<DIV><FONT size=4 face=Calibri></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4 face=Calibri></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4 face=Calibri></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=karl.javorszky@gmail.com
href="mailto:karl.javorszky@gmail.com">Karl Javorszky</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Friday, May 11, 2018 1:20 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=tozziarturo@libero.it
href="mailto:tozziarturo@libero.it">Arturo Tozzi</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Cc:</B> <A title=fis@listas.unizar.es
href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es">fis</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Fis] [FIS] Is information physical?</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV
style='FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri"; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline'>
<DIV>Dear Arturo,
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>There were some reports in clinical psychology, about 30 years ago, that
relate to the question whether a machine can pretend to be a therapist. That was
the time as computers could newly be used in an interactive fashion, and the
Rogers techniques were a current discovery.</DIV>
<DIV>(Rogers developed a dialogue method where one does not address the contents
of what the patient says, but rather the emotional aspects of the message,
assumed to be at work in the patient.)</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>They then said, that in some cases it was indistinguishable, whether a
human or a machine provides the answer to a patient's elucidations. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Progress since then has surely made possible to create machines that are
indistinguishable in interaction to humans. Indeed, what is called "expert
systems ", are widely used in many fields. If the interaction is rational,
that is: formally equivalent to a logical discussion modi Wittgenstein, the
difference in: "who arrived at this answer, machinery or a human", becomes
irrelevant. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Artistry, intuition, creativity are presently seen as not possible to
translate into Wittgenstein sentences. Maybe the inner instincts are not yet
well understood. But!: there are some who are busily undermining the current
fundamentals of rational thinking. So there is hope that we shall live to
experience the ultimate disillusionment, namely that humans are a
combinatorial tautology. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Accordingly, may I respectfully express opposing views to what you state:
that machines and humans are of incompatible builds. There are hints that as far
as rational capabilities go, the same principles apply. There is a rest, you
say, which is not of this kind. The counter argument says that irrational
processes do not take place in organisms, therefore what you refer to belongs to
the main process, maybe like waste belongs to the organism's principle. This
view draws a picture of a functional biotope, in which the waste of one kind of
organism is raw material for a different kind. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Karl </DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>
<DIV dir=ltr><<A
href="mailto:tozziarturo@libero.it">tozziarturo@libero.it</A>> schrieb am
Do., 10. Mai 2018 15:24:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-TOP: 0px" dir=ltr>Dear Bruno, <BR>You state: <BR>"IF
indexical digital mechanism is correct in the cognitive science,<BR>THEN
“physical” has to be defined entirely in arithmetical term, i.e. “physical”
becomes a mathematical notion.<BR>...Indexical digital mechanism is the
hypothesis that there is a level of description of the brain/body such that I
would survive, or “not feel any change” if my brain/body is replaced by a
digital machine emulating the brain/body at that level of description".</P>
<P dir=ltr>The problem of your account is the following:<BR>You say "IF" and
"indexical digital mechanism is the HYPOTHESIS".<BR>Therefore, you are talking
of an HYPOTHESIS: it is not empirically tested and it is not empirically
testable. You are starting with a sort of postulate: I, and other
people, do not agree with it. The current neuroscience does not state
that our brain/body is (or can be replaced by) a digital machine.<BR>In other
words, your "IF" stands for something that possibly does not exist in our real
world. Here your entire building falls down. <BR></P>
<DIV id=m_1048372877214317129mail-app-auto-default-signature>
<P dir=ltr>--<BR>Inviato da Libero Mail per Android</P></DIV>giovedì, 10
maggio 2018, 02:46PM +02:00 da Bruno Marchal <A
href="mailto:marchal@ulb.ac.be" rel=noreferrer
target=_blank>marchal@ulb.ac.be</A>:<BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE id=m_1048372877214317129mail-app-auto-quote
style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 10px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 10px; BORDER-LEFT: #85af31 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px"
cite=http://15259565360000035165>
<DIV
class="m_1048372877214317129js-helper m_1048372877214317129js-readmsg-msg">
<DIV>
<DIV id=m_1048372877214317129style_15259565360000035165_BODY>
<DIV class=m_1048372877214317129class_1525973693>
<DIV>(This mail has been sent previously , but without success. I resend it,
with minor changes). Problems due to different accounts. It was my first
comment to Mark Burgin new thread “Is information physical?”.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>Dear Mark, Dear Colleagues,
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Apology for not answering the mails in the chronological orders, as my
new computer classifies them in some mysterious way!</DIV>
<DIV>This is my first post of the week. I might answer comment, if any, at
the end of the week.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV>On 25 Apr 2018, at 03:47, Burgin, Mark <<A
href="mailto:mburgin@math.ucla.edu" rel=" noopener noreferrer noreferrer"
target=_blank>mburgin@math.ucla.edu</A>> wrote:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255)">Dear Colleagues,</P>
<P style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255)">I would like to suggest the
new topic for discussion</P>
<P
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255)">
Is information physical?<BR></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>That is an important topic indeed, very close to what I am working on.
</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>My result here is that </DIV>
<DIV><B><U><BR></U></B></DIV>
<DIV><B><U>IF</U></B> indexical digital mechanism is correct in the
cognitive science, </DIV>
<DIV><B><U><BR></U></B></DIV>
<DIV><B><U>THEN</U></B> “physical” has to be defined entirely in
arithmetical term, i.e. “physical” becomes a mathematical notion.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The proof is constructive. It shows exactly how to derive physics from
Arithmetic (the reality, not the theory. I use “reality” instead of “model"
(logician’s term, because physicists use “model" for “theory").</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Indexical digital mechanism is the hypothesis that there is a level of
description of the brain/body such that I would survive, or “not feel any
change” if my brain/body is replaced by a digital machine emulating the
brain/body at that level of description.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Not only information is not physical, but matter, time, space, and all
physical objects become part of the universal machine phenomenology. Physics
is reduced to arithmetic, or, equivalently, to any Turing-complete
machinery. Amazingly Arithmetic (even the tiny semi-computable part of
arithmetic) is Turing complete (Turing Universal).</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The basic idea is that:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>1) no universal machine can distinguish if she is executed by an
arithmetical reality or by a physical reality. And,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>2) all universal machines are executed in arithmetic, and they are
necessarily undetermined on the set of of all its continuations emulated in
arithmetic. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>That reduces physics to a statistics on all computations relative to my
actual state, and see from some first person points of view (something I can
describe more precisely in some future post perhaps).</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Put in that way, the proof is not constructive, as, if we are machine,
we cannot know which machine we are. But Gödel’s incompleteness can be used
to recover this constructively for a simpler machine than us, like Peano
arithmetic. This way of proceeding enforces the distinction between first
and third person views (and six others!).</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I have derived already many feature of quantum mechanics from this
(including the possibility of quantum computer) a long time ago. I was
about sure this would refute Mechanism, until I learned about quantum
mechanics, which verifies all the most startling predictions of Indexical
Mechanism, unless we add the controversial wave collapse reduction
principle.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The curious “many-worlds” becomes the obvious (in arithmetic) many
computations (up to some equivalence quotient). The weird indeterminacy
becomes the simpler amoeba like duplication. The non-cloning of matter
becomes obvious: as any piece of matter is the result of the first person
indeterminacy (the first person view of the amoeba undergoing a duplication,
…) on infinitely many computations. This entails also that neither matter
appearance nor consciousness are Turing emulable per se, as the whole
arithmetical reality—which is a highly non computable notion as we know
since Gödel—plays a key role. Note this makes Digital Physics leaning to
inconsistency, as it implies indexical computationalism which implies the
negation of Digital Physics (unless my “body” is the entire physical
universe, which I rather doubt).</DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV>
<P style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255)">My opinion is presented
below:<BR></P>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255)"> </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255)"> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: consolas; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255)"><SPAN><SPAN>
</SPAN>Why some people erroneously think that information is
physical</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: consolas; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255)"><SPAN><SPAN>
</SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: consolas; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255)"><SPAN><SPAN>
</SPAN>The main reason to think that information is physical is the strong
belief of many people, especially, scientists that there is only physical
reality, which is studied by science. At the same time, people encounter
something that they call information.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: consolas; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255)"><SPAN><SPAN>
</SPAN>When people receive a letter, they comprehend that it is
information because with the letter they receive information. The letter
is physical, i.e., a physical object. As a result, people start thinking
that information is physical. When people receive an e-mail, they
comprehend that it is information because with the e-mail they receive
information. The e-mail comes to the computer in the form of
electromagnetic waves, which are physical. As a result, people start
thinking even more that information is physical.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: consolas; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255)"><SPAN><SPAN>
</SPAN>However, letters, electromagnetic waves and actually all physical
objects are only carriers or containers of information.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: consolas; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255)"><SPAN><SPAN>
</SPAN>To understand this better, let us consider a textbook. Is possible
to say that this book is knowledge? Any reasonable person will tell that
the textbook contains knowledge but is not knowledge itself. In the same
way, the textbook contains information but is not information itself. The
same is true for letters, e-mails, electromagnetic waves and other
physical objects because all of them only contain information but are not
information. For instance, as we know, different letters can contain the
same information. Even if we make an identical copy of a letter or any
other text, then the letter and its copy will be different physical
objects (physical things) but they will contain the same
information.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: consolas; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255)"><SPAN><SPAN>
</SPAN>Information belongs to a different (non-physical) world of
knowledge, data and similar essences. In spite of this, information can
act on physical objects (physical bodies) and this action also misleads
people who think that information is
physical.</SPAN></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>OK. The reason is that we can hardly imagine how immaterial or non
physical objects can alter the physical realm. It is the usual problem faced
by dualist ontologies. With Indexical computationalism we recover many
dualities, but they belong to the phenomenologies.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: consolas; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255)"><SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: consolas; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255)"><SPAN><SPAN>
</SPAN>One more misleading property of information is that people can
measure it. This brings an erroneous assumption that it is possible to
measure only physical essences. Naturally, this brings people to the
erroneous conclusion that information is physical. However, measuring
information is essentially different than measuring physical quantities,
i.e., weight. There are no “scales” that measure information. Only human
intellect can do this.</SPAN></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>OK. I think all intellect can do that, not just he human one.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Now, the reason why people believe in the physical is always a form of
the “knocking table” argument. They knocks on the table and say “you will
not tell me that this table is unreal”.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I have got so many people giving me that argument, that I have made
dreams in which I made that argument, or even where I was convinced by that
argument … until I wake up.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>When we do metaphysics with the scientific method, this “dream
argument” illustrates that seeing, measuring, … cannot prove anything
ontological. A subjective experience proves only the phenomenological
existence of consciousness, and nothing more. It shows that although there
are plenty of strong evidences for a material reality, there are no
evidences (yet) for a primitive or primary matter (and that is why, I think,
Aristotle assumes it quasi explicitly, against Plato, and plausibly against
Pythagorus).</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Mechanism forces a coming back to Plato, where the worlds of ideas is
the world of programs, or information, or even just numbers, since very
elementary arithmetic (PA without induction, + the predecessor axiom) is
already Turing complete (it contains what I have named a Universal
Dovetailer: a program which generates *and* executes all programs).</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>So I agree with you: information is not physical. I claim that if we
assume Mechanism (Indexical computationalism) matter itself is also not
*primarily* physical: it is all in the “head of the universal
machine/number” (so to speak).</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>And this provides a test for primary matter: it is enough to find if
there is a discrepancy between the physics that we infer from the
observation, and the physics that we extract from “the head” of the machine.
This took me more than 30 years of work, but the results obtained up to now
is that there is no discrepancies. I have compared the quantum logic imposed
by incompleteness (formally) on the semi-computable (partial recursive,
sigma_1) propositions, with most quantum logics given by physicists, and it
fits rather well.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Best regards,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Bruno</DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>
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