<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
<head>
<meta http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 11 (filtered medium)">
<!--[if !mso]>
<style>
v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
</style>
<![endif]-->
<style>
<!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Consolas;
panose-1:2 11 6 9 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0cm;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
p
{mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0cm;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0cm;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";}
span.EmailStyle18
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:Arial;
color:navy;}
@page Section1
{size:595.3pt 841.9pt;
margin:70.85pt 70.85pt 70.85pt 70.85pt;}
div.Section1
{page:Section1;}
-->
</style>
</head>
<body lang=FR link=blue vlink=blue>
<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=DE-CH
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Perhaps you will also be
interested in my brief comments on information-as-process in my 2011 paper in <i><span
style='font-style:italic'>Information 2(3)</span></i>, 560-578. It seems a bit
too simple to say that a computer, machine, whatever can process all reflections
if these include high-level complex exchanges of energy in and between human
brains Does not something get lost in that process?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=DE-CH
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Best, <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Joseph<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=3 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
Fis [mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es] <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On
Behalf Of </span></b>Krassimir Markov<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> vendredi, 11 mai 2018 16:13<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> karl.javorszky@gmail.com;
Arturo Tozzi<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> fis<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> [Fis] INFORMATION IS
PROCESSING the reflections</span></font><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'>Dear Colleagues,</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'>During activity of
Infos’ consciousness, reflections are combined and as a result the new
ones may be created and stored in the Infos memory.</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'>Processing of some
reflections may cause some activity, too. </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'>In other words, it
doesn't matter what kind of Infos is active – the result is the same!</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=4 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black;font-weight:bold'>INFORMATION
IS PROCESSING the reflections that has as final result an activity or new
reflections</span></font></b><font size=4 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'>.</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=4 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black;font-weight:bold'>Usually,
the results of such processing are called “Information”.</span></font></b><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'>Of course, to be
active means to be real (material, physical) and to have energy for processing.</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'>To store reflections,
material objects are needed, i.e. “carriers”.</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'>This is the main
interconnection between mater, energy, and information.</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'>No Information exist
anywhere – only reflections – REAL, PHYSICAL REFLECTIONS!</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'>Reflections in real,
physical objects, including living creatures.</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'>Including Brain!</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'>Main difference
between living and not living mater is possibility for processing of
reflections.</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'>Of course, many levels
of such processing exist. </span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'>Maybe, the most
complex is the social one.</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'>Maybe, the simplest
one is in the cells... </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'>Could the Machine
process reflections? Still no answer ...</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'>But the Computer can! </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'>"That's All
Folks!" </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'>Friendly greetings</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'>Krassimir</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div style='font-color:black'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:whitesmoke'><b><font size=2 color=black
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black;
font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'> <a
href="mailto:karl.javorszky@gmail.com" title="karl.javorszky@gmail.com">Karl
Javorszky</a> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:whitesmoke'><b><font size=2 color=black
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black;
font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></font></b><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'> Friday, May 11, 2018
1:20 PM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:whitesmoke'><b><font size=2 color=black
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black;
font-weight:bold'>To:</span></font></b><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'> <a
href="mailto:tozziarturo@libero.it" title="tozziarturo@libero.it">Arturo Tozzi</a>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:whitesmoke'><b><font size=2 color=black
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black;
font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></font></b><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'> <a
href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" title="fis@listas.unizar.es">fis</a> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:whitesmoke'><b><font size=2 color=black
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black;
font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></font></b><font size=2 color=black
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'> Re:
[Fis] [FIS] Is information physical?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'>Dear Arturo, <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'>There were some
reports in clinical psychology, about 30 years ago, that relate to the question
whether a machine can pretend to be a therapist. That was the time as computers
could newly be used in an interactive fashion, and the Rogers techniques were a
current discovery.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'>(Rogers developed a
dialogue method where one does not address the contents of what the patient
says, but rather the emotional aspects of the message, assumed to be at work in
the patient.)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'>They then said, that
in some cases it was indistinguishable, whether a human or a machine provides
the answer to a patient's elucidations. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'>Progress since then
has surely made possible to create machines that are indistinguishable in
interaction to humans. Indeed, what is called "expert systems ", are
widely used in many fields. If the interaction is rational, that is:
formally equivalent to a logical discussion modi Wittgenstein, the difference
in: "who arrived at this answer, machinery or a human", becomes
irrelevant. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'>Artistry, intuition,
creativity are presently seen as not possible to translate into Wittgenstein
sentences. Maybe the inner instincts are not yet well understood. But!: there
are some who are busily undermining the current fundamentals of rational
thinking. So there is hope that we shall live to experience the ultimate
disillusionment, namely that humans are a combinatorial tautology. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'>Accordingly, may I
respectfully express opposing views to what you state: that machines and humans
are of incompatible builds. There are hints that as far as rational
capabilities go, the same principles apply. There is a rest, you say, which is
not of this kind. The counter argument says that irrational processes do not
take place in organisms, therefore what you refer to belongs to the main
process, maybe like waste belongs to the organism's principle. This view draws
a picture of a functional biotope, in which the waste of one kind of organism
is raw material for a different kind. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'>Karl <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'><<a
href="mailto:tozziarturo@libero.it">tozziarturo@libero.it</a>> schrieb am
Do., 10. Mai 2018 15:24:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;
margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm'>
<div>
<p style='margin-top:0cm'><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'>Dear Bruno, <br>
You state: <br>
"IF indexical digital mechanism is correct in the cognitive science,<br>
THEN “physical” has to be defined entirely in arithmetical term,
i.e. “physical” becomes a mathematical notion.<br>
...Indexical digital mechanism is the hypothesis that there is a level of description
of the brain/body such that I would survive, or “not feel any
change” if my brain/body is replaced by a digital machine emulating the
brain/body at that level of description".<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Calibri;color:black'>The problem of your account is the following:<br>
You say "IF" and "indexical digital mechanism is the
HYPOTHESIS".<br>
Therefore, you are talking of an HYPOTHESIS: it is not empirically tested and
it is not empirically testable. You are starting with a sort of
postulate: I, and other people, do not agree with it. The current neuroscience
does not state that our brain/body is (or can be replaced by) a digital
machine.<br>
In other words, your "IF" stands for something that possibly does not
exist in our real world. Here your entire building falls down. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div id="m_1048372877214317129mail-app-auto-default-signature">
<p><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Calibri;color:black'>--<br>
Inviato da Libero Mail per Android<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'>giovedì, 10 maggio
2018, 02:46PM +02:00 da Bruno Marchal <a href="mailto:marchal@ulb.ac.be"
target="_blank">marchal@ulb.ac.be</a>:<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div>
<div id="m_1048372877214317129style_15259565360000035165_BODY">
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'>(This mail has been
sent previously , but without success. I resend it, with minor changes).
Problems due to different accounts. It was my first comment to Mark Burgin new
thread “Is information physical?”.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'>Dear Mark, Dear
Colleagues, <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'>Apology for not
answering the mails in the chronological orders, as my new computer classifies
them in some mysterious way!<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'>This is my first post
of the week. I might answer comment, if any, at the end of the week.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'>On 25 Apr 2018, at
03:47, Burgin, Mark <<a href="mailto:mburgin@math.ucla.edu" target="_blank">mburgin@math.ucla.edu</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p style='background:white'><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'>Dear Colleagues,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='background:white'><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'>I would like to suggest
the new topic for discussion<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='background:white'><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'>
Is information physical?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'>That is an important
topic indeed, very close to what I am working on. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'>My result here is that
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><u><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black;font-weight:bold'>IF</span></font></u></b><font
color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-family:Calibri;color:black'>
indexical digital mechanism is correct in the cognitive science, <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><u><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black;font-weight:bold'>THEN</span></font></u></b><font
color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-family:Calibri;color:black'>
“physical” has to be defined entirely in arithmetical term, i.e.
“physical” becomes a mathematical notion.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'>The proof is
constructive. It shows exactly how to derive physics from Arithmetic (the
reality, not the theory. I use “reality” instead of
“model" (logician’s term, because physicists use
“model" for “theory").<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'>Indexical digital
mechanism is the hypothesis that there is a level of description of the
brain/body such that I would survive, or “not feel any change” if
my brain/body is replaced by a digital machine emulating the brain/body at that
level of description.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'>Not only information
is not physical, but matter, time, space, and all physical objects become part
of the universal machine phenomenology. Physics is reduced to arithmetic, or,
equivalently, to any Turing-complete machinery. Amazingly Arithmetic (even the
tiny semi-computable part of arithmetic) is Turing complete (Turing Universal).<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'>The basic idea is
that:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'>1) no universal
machine can distinguish if she is executed by an arithmetical reality or by a
physical reality. And,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'>2) all universal
machines are executed in arithmetic, and they are necessarily undetermined on
the set of of all its continuations emulated in arithmetic. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'>That reduces physics
to a statistics on all computations relative to my actual state, and see from
some first person points of view (something I can describe more precisely in
some future post perhaps).<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'>Put in that way, the
proof is not constructive, as, if we are machine, we cannot know which machine
we are. But Gödel’s incompleteness can be used to recover this
constructively for a simpler machine than us, like Peano arithmetic. This way
of proceeding enforces the distinction between first and third person views
(and six others!).<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'>I have derived already
many feature of quantum mechanics from this (including the possibility of
quantum computer) a long time ago. I was about sure this would refute
Mechanism, until I learned about quantum mechanics, which verifies all the most
startling predictions of Indexical Mechanism, unless we add the controversial
wave collapse reduction principle.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'>The curious
“many-worlds” becomes the obvious (in arithmetic) many computations
(up to some equivalence quotient). The weird indeterminacy becomes the simpler
amoeba like duplication. The non-cloning of matter becomes obvious: as any
piece of matter is the result of the first person indeterminacy (the first
person view of the amoeba undergoing a duplication, …) on infinitely many
computations. This entails also that neither matter appearance nor
consciousness are Turing emulable per se, as the whole arithmetical
reality—which is a highly non computable notion as we know since
Gödel—plays a key role. Note this makes Digital Physics leaning to
inconsistency, as it implies indexical computationalism which implies the
negation of Digital Physics (unless my “body” is the entire
physical universe, which I rather doubt).<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p style='background:white'><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'>My opinion is
presented below:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=3 color=black
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=3 color=black
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=2 color=black
face=Consolas><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;color:black'>
Why some people erroneously think that information is physical<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=2 color=black
face=Consolas><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;color:black'>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=2 color=black
face=Consolas><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;color:black'>
The main reason to think that information is physical is the strong belief of
many people, especially, scientists that there is only physical reality, which
is studied by science. At the same time, people encounter something that they
call information.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=2 color=black
face=Consolas><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;color:black'>
When people receive a letter, they comprehend that it is information because
with the letter they receive information. The letter is physical, i.e., a
physical object. As a result, people start thinking that information is
physical. When people receive an e-mail, they comprehend that it is information
because with the e-mail they receive information. The e-mail comes to the
computer in the form of electromagnetic waves, which are physical. As a result,
people start thinking even more that information is physical.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=2 color=black
face=Consolas><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;color:black'>
However, letters, electromagnetic waves and actually all physical objects are
only carriers or containers of information.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=2 color=black
face=Consolas><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;color:black'>
To understand this better, let us consider a textbook. Is possible to say that
this book is knowledge? Any reasonable person will tell that the textbook
contains knowledge but is not knowledge itself. In the same way, the textbook
contains information but is not information itself. The same is true for letters,
e-mails, electromagnetic waves and other physical objects because all of them
only contain information but are not information. For instance, as we know,
different letters can contain the same information. Even if we make an
identical copy of a letter or any other text, then the letter and its copy will
be different physical objects (physical things) but they will contain the same
information.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=2 color=black
face=Consolas><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;color:black'>
Information belongs to a different (non-physical) world of knowledge, data and
similar essences. In spite of this, information can act on physical objects
(physical bodies) and this action also misleads people who think that
information is physical.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'>OK. The reason is that
we can hardly imagine how immaterial or non physical objects can alter the
physical realm. It is the usual problem faced by dualist ontologies. With
Indexical computationalism we recover many dualities, but they belong to the
phenomenologies.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><font size=2 color=black
face=Consolas><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;color:black'>
One more misleading property of information is that people can measure it. This
brings an erroneous assumption that it is possible to measure only physical
essences. Naturally, this brings people to the erroneous conclusion that
information is physical. However, measuring information is essentially
different than measuring physical quantities, i.e., weight. There are no
“scales” that measure information. Only human intellect can do
this.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'>OK. I think all
intellect can do that, not just he human one.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'>Now, the reason why
people believe in the physical is always a form of the “knocking
table” argument. They knocks on the table and say “you will not
tell me that this table is unreal”.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'>I have got so many
people giving me that argument, that I have made dreams in which I made that
argument, or even where I was convinced by that argument … until I wake
up.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'>When we do metaphysics
with the scientific method, this “dream argument” illustrates that
seeing, measuring, … cannot prove anything ontological. A subjective
experience proves only the phenomenological existence of consciousness, and nothing
more. It shows that although there are plenty of strong evidences for a
material reality, there are no evidences (yet) for a primitive or primary
matter (and that is why, I think, Aristotle assumes it quasi explicitly,
against Plato, and plausibly against Pythagorus).<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'>Mechanism forces a
coming back to Plato, where the worlds of ideas is the world of programs, or
information, or even just numbers, since very elementary arithmetic (PA without
induction, + the predecessor axiom) is already Turing complete (it contains
what I have named a Universal Dovetailer: a program which generates *and*
executes all programs).<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'>So I agree with you:
information is not physical. I claim that if we assume Mechanism (Indexical
computationalism) matter itself is also not *primarily* physical: it is all in
the “head of the universal machine/number” (so to speak).<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'>And this provides a
test for primary matter: it is enough to find if there is a discrepancy between
the physics that we infer from the observation, and the physics that we extract
from “the head” of the machine. This took me more than 30 years of
work, but the results obtained up to now is that there is no discrepancies. I
have compared the quantum logic imposed by incompleteness (formally) on the
semi-computable (partial recursive, sigma_1) propositions, with most quantum
logics given by physicists, and it fits rather well.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'>Best regards,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'>Bruno<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'>_______________________________________________<br>
Fis mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br>
<a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" target="_blank">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'>_______________________________________________<br>
Fis mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br>
<a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" target="_blank">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:black'>
<hr size=3 width="100%" align=center>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'>_______________________________________________<br>
Fis mailing list<br>
Fis@listas.unizar.es<br>
http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div id="DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2">
<br /><br />
<hr style='border:none; color:#909090; background-color:#B0B0B0; height: 1px; width: 99%;' />
<table style='border-collapse:collapse;border:none;'>
<tr>
<td style='border:none;padding:0px 15px 0px 8px'>
<a href="https://www.avast.com/antivirus">
<img border=0 src="http://static.avast.com/emails/avast-mail-stamp.png" alt="Avast logo" />
</a>
</td>
<td>
<p style='color:#3d4d5a; font-family:"Calibri","Verdana","Arial","Helvetica"; font-size:12pt;'>
L'absence de virus dans ce courrier électronique a été vérifiée par le logiciel antivirus Avast.
<br><a href="https://www.avast.com/antivirus">www.avast.com</a>
</p>
</td>
</tr>
</table>
<br />
<a href="#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2" width="1" height="1"> </a></div></body>
</html>