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Dear group,<br>
<br>
I think that linguistic philosophy is largely thought now to be a
dead end. I agree with the second point, though.<br>
<br>
I especially agree with Loet's point in response to Lou Kauffman.
Scientific measurement, not to even mention testing of hypotheses.<br>
<br>
My preference rather than for communications studies is general
systems theory, which applies to all levels. I don't think a full
reduction to physics, even in some physical sciences like
mineralogy, is possible.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
John<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2018/04/28 8:28 AM, Loet Leydesdorff
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:em33d09753-9d07-49fb-abde-569dbf7f3af9@pc2014">
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<div>Dear colleagues, </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Not only logic, but also language is not directly and
one-to-one coupled to physics. The hidden positivism of claiming
priority for physics by some of us, is at odds with the
linguistic turn in the philosophy of science. Furthermore, the
issue is not directly related to the definition of information
as probablistic entropy or otherwise.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I agree with most of what Lou Kauffman said, but: </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div id="xcd1793806ab0437" style="word-wrap: break-word;
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break:
after-white-space;">
<blockquote cite="D30A2F6C-8B3C-41A6-B63E-7F3BA57B2477@uic.edu"
type="cite" class="cite2">
<div class="">We come to investigate both reason and
physicality through each other and our ability to sense and
feel.</div>
<div class="">Sensing and feeling and measurement are our
terms for those places where concept and the physical arise
together in our perception.</div>
</blockquote>
<div id="xcd1793806ab0437" style="word-wrap: break-word;
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break:
after-white-space;">The emphasis in the above remains on the
individual sensing and feeling, mediated by measurement.
However, scientific observation is not such immediate feeling,
but careful and discursively constructed articulations of
expectations which are tested against observations. The cocon
of language (a la Maturana) is opened at specific places which
are carefully reasoned. The feelings do enter only after
having been articulated into observational reports. The latter
contain knowledge claims which are validated discursively. No
escape! The observations enable us to improve the codification
in the specialist language (jargon).</div>
<div id="xcd1793806ab0437" style="word-wrap: break-word;
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break:
after-white-space;"><br>
</div>
<div id="xcd1793806ab0437" style="word-wrap: break-word;
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break:
after-white-space;">Physics is part of this edifice of
science. It has no privileged access to reality, but
constructs its own reality. Nobody senses the particles at
CERN. The observational reports are readings from an
instrument which have to be discussed before one can
interpret.</div>
<div id="xcd1793806ab0437" style="word-wrap: break-word;
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break:
after-white-space;"><br>
</div>
<div id="xcd1793806ab0437" style="word-wrap: break-word;
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break:
after-white-space;">If any science can claim priority, it is
communication studies. The specialist languages are shaped in
processes of communication. How does this work? Can it be
improved?</div>
<div id="xcd1793806ab0437" style="word-wrap: break-word;
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break:
after-white-space;"><br>
</div>
<div id="xcd1793806ab0437" style="word-wrap: break-word;
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break:
after-white-space;">Best,</div>
<div id="xcd1793806ab0437" style="word-wrap: break-word;
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break:
after-white-space;">Loet</div>
<div id="xcd1793806ab0437" style="word-wrap: break-word;
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break:
after-white-space;"><br>
</div>
<br>
<blockquote cite="D30A2F6C-8B3C-41A6-B63E-7F3BA57B2477@uic.edu"
type="cite" class="cite2">
<div class=""><br>
</div>
<div class="">5. Beyond those places where significant related
pairs of opposites that cannot be separated
(complementarities) occur there is our (in at least my
tradition)</div>
<div class="">personal reality of unity — whereof nothing can
be said. </div>
<div class="">6. We cannot sever philosophy and logic and
reason from science, AND for science we must open to the
largest possible access to precision and understanding.</div>
<div class="">Best,</div>
<div class="">Lou</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">
<div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Apr 27, 2018, at 4:38 AM, <a
href="mailto:tozziarturo@libero.it" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">tozziarturo@libero.it</a>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<p dir="ltr" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align:
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; margin-top:
0px;" class="">Dear Bruno,<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
You claim: "all computations exists independently of
the existence of anything physical".<br class="">
I never heard, apart probably from Berkeley and
Tegmark, a more untestable, metaphyisical,
a-scientific, unquantifiable claim. <span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></p>
<p dir="ltr" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align:
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">Dear
FISers, we NEED to deal with something testable and
quantifiable, otherwise we are doing philosophy and
logic, not science! Even if information is (as many
FISers suggest) at least in part not physical, we
NEED to focus just on the testable part, i.e., the
physical one. And, even if physics does not exist,
as Bruno states, at least it gives me something
quantifiable and useful for my pragmatic purposes.<br
class="">
Even if information is something subjective in my
mind (totally untestable, but very popular claim)
who cares, by a scientific standpoint?<br class="">
If I say that Julius Caesar was killed by an alien,
the theory is fashinating, but useless, unless I
provide proofs or testable clues. <span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></p>
<div id="mail-app-auto-default-signature"
style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
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<p dir="ltr" class="">--<br class="">
Inviato da Libero Mail per Android</p>
</div>
<span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align:
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none;
display: inline !important;" class="">venerdì, 27
aprile 2018, 10:10AM +02:00 da Bruno Marchal<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><a
href="mailto:marchal@ulb.ac.be" style="font-family:
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal;
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orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows:
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px;" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">marchal@ulb.ac.be</a><span
style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal;
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line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align:
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
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0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none;
display: inline !important;" class="">:</span><br
style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
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line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align:
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0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">
<br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
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<blockquote id="mail-app-auto-quote"
cite="x-msg://159/15248167570000034974"
style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
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0px 0px 10px; padding: 0px 0px 0px 10px;" class="">
<div class="js-helper js-readmsg-msg">
<div class="">
<div id="style_15248167570000034974_BODY"
class="">
<div class="class_1524821735">Hi Lou,
Colleagues,
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On 25 Apr 2018, at
16:55, Louis H Kauffman <<a
href="mailto:kauffman@uic.edu"
class="" rel=" noopener
noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true">kauffman@uic.edu</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br
class="Apple-interchange-newline_mailru_css_attribute_postfix">
<div class="">
<div class="" style="word-wrap:
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode:
space; -webkit-line-break:
after-white-space;">Dear Krassimir
and Mark,
<div class="">Let us not forget
the intermediate question:</div>
<div class="">How is information
independent of the choice of
carrier?</div>
<div class="">This is the fruitful
question in my opinion, and it
avoids the problem of assigning
existence to that which is
relational.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">The same problem
exists for numbers and other
mathematical entities. Does the
number 2 exist without any
couples?</div>
<div class="">The mathematical
answer is to construct a
standard couple (e.g. { { },
{{}} } in set theory or two
marks || in formalism) and say
that </div>
<div class="">a collection has
cardinality two if it can be
placed in 1-1 correspondence
with the standard couple. In
this way of speaking we do not
have to </div>
<div class="">assign an existence
to two as a noun. The Russelian
alternative — to take two to be
the collection of all couples —
is a fascinating intellectual
move, but</div>
<div class="">I prefer to avoid it
by not having to speak of the
existence of two in such a way.
Two is a concept and it is
outside of formal systems and
outside of the physical</div>
<div class="">except in that we
who have that concept are linked
with formalism and linked with
the apparent physical.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">And let us not
forget the other question.</div>
<div class="">What is "the
physical”?</div>
<div class="">What we take to be
physical arises as a relation
between our sensing (and
generalized sensing) and our
ability to form concepts.</div>
<div class="">To imagine that the
“physical” exists independent of
that relation is an extra
assumption that is not necessary
for scientific work, however</div>
<div class="">attractive or
repelling it may seem.</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
Indeed, the existence of a physical
ontology is an hypothesis in
metaphysics, and not in physics. It was
brought mainly by Aristotle and even
more by its followers. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">What can be shown, is that
if we assume Digital Mechanism in the
cognitive science, then the physical
cannot be ontological, and physics has
to be reduced to the psychology, or
better the theology of the digital
machine. My contribution shows this
testable, and the physical observations,
up to now, favour the non existence of
primary matter (as amazing and
counter-intuive this could seem).</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">What many people seem to
miss is that the notion of universal
machine and the notion of computations
(Turing, Post, Church, Kleene) are
purely arithmetical notion. Anyone who
is able to believe that (3^3) + (4^3) +
(5^3) = (6^3) is necessarily either true
or false even without verifying which it
is, should be able to understand that
all computations exists independently of
the existence of anything physical, and
then a reasoning can show that it is
easier to explain the illusion of an
otological matter to complex number
relation, than to explain the numbers in
term of complex relation between primary
matter. In fact it is impossible, and
the notion of primary matter adds
unnecessary insuperable difficulties in
the “mind-body” problem.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Now, Landauer, and others,
have given some evidence that some
notion of information is physical (like
quantum information). That does not
contradict the idea that information is
not physical. The illusion of physical
appearances is real, obeys laws, and
physics is eventually reduced into an
internal statistics on all computations
in arithmetic, and that can explain some
special form of physical information
(and indeed the quantum one is already
explained in some testable way).</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">The origin of information
comes from the fact that aTuring machine
cannot distinguish the physical reality
from the arithmetical reality (which
emulates all computations) except by
observation. The machines are
distributed in infinitely many exemplars
in arithmetic, and that defines a sort
of indexical differentiating
consciousness flux, leading to
(collective) sharable deep dreams which
we call the physical.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Now, all this is long to
explain, and I’m afraid this can look
too much provocative, if I do not add
the proofs and much more explanations.
People can consult my papers, but needs
to study a bit of mathematical logic.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Physicalism/materialism is a
long lasting habit of thought, and, as I
have experienced my whole life, some
materialist defend the dogma with more
integrism and violence than some
(pseudo)-religious radicals in history. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Once we assume mechanism,
all we need to assume to get both mind
and matter is *any* universal machine or
machinery, and then the usual platonic
epistemological definitions can be used
(but they can also be motivated through
some thought experience). </div>
<div class="">For the universal machinery,
I use (very) elementary arithmetic,
because everyone is familiar with them,
and can accept that “17 is prime” is
true independently of them, which would
not be the case with ((K K) K) = K in
combinators theory (generally not
known). But we can derive arithmetic,
and the physical dreams from just very
small theories, like</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">
<div class="" style="margin: 0px;
font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;
font-family: 'Helvetica Neue'; color:
rgb(29, 33, 41);
-webkit-text-stroke-width: initial;
-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(29, 33,
41);"><span class=""
style="background-color: rgb(255,
255, 255);">((K x) y) = x</span></div>
<div class="" style="margin: 0px;
font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;
font-family: 'Helvetica Neue'; color:
rgb(29, 33, 41);
-webkit-text-stroke-width: initial;
-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(29, 33,
41); background-color: rgb(255, 255,
255);"><span class="">(((S x) y) z) =
((x z) (y z))</span></div>
<div class="" style="margin: 0px;
font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;
font-family: 'Helvetica Neue'; color:
rgb(29, 33, 41);
-webkit-text-stroke-width: initial;
-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(29, 33,
41); background-color: rgb(255, 255,
255);"><br class="">
</div>
</div>
<div class="">(Axioms of the
SK-combinators: that is Turing
Universal!)</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Or, very elementary
arithmetic (Peano arithmetic without
induction, + the predecessor axiom),
i.e, classical logic +</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">
<div class="" style="margin: 0px;
font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;
font-family: 'Helvetica Neue'; color:
rgb(29, 33, 41);
-webkit-text-stroke-width: initial;
-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(29, 33,
41);"><span class=""
style="background-color: rgb(255,
255, 255);">0 ≠ s(x)</span></div>
<div class="" style="margin: 0px;
font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;
font-family: 'Helvetica Neue'; color:
rgb(29, 33, 41);
-webkit-text-stroke-width: initial;
-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(29, 33,
41);"><span class=""
style="background-color: rgb(255,
255, 255);">s(x) = s(y) -> x = y</span></div>
<div class="" style="margin: 0px;
font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;
font-family: 'Helvetica Neue'; color:
rgb(29, 33, 41);
-webkit-text-stroke-width: initial;
-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(29, 33,
41);"><span class=""
style="background-color: rgb(255,
255, 255);">x = 0 v Ey(x = s(y)) </span></div>
<div class="" style="margin: 0px;
font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;
font-family: 'Helvetica Neue'; color:
rgb(29, 33, 41);
-webkit-text-stroke-width: initial;
-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(29, 33,
41);"><span class=""
style="background-color: rgb(255,
255, 255);">x+0 = x</span></div>
<div class="" style="margin: 0px;
font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;
font-family: 'Helvetica Neue'; color:
rgb(29, 33, 41);
-webkit-text-stroke-width: initial;
-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(29, 33,
41);"><span class=""
style="background-color: rgb(255,
255, 255);">x+s(y) = s(x+y)</span></div>
<div class="" style="margin: 0px;
font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;
font-family: 'Helvetica Neue'; color:
rgb(29, 33, 41);
-webkit-text-stroke-width: initial;
-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(29, 33,
41);"><span class=""
style="background-color: rgb(255,
255, 255);">x*0=0</span></div>
<div class="" style="margin: 0px;
font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;
font-family: 'Helvetica Neue'; color:
rgb(29, 33, 41);
-webkit-text-stroke-width: initial;
-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(29, 33,
41); background-color: rgb(255, 255,
255);"><span class="">x*s(y)=(x*y)+x</span></div>
<div class="" style="margin: 0px;
font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;
font-family: 'Helvetica Neue'; color:
rgb(29, 33, 41);
-webkit-text-stroke-width: initial;
-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(29, 33,
41); background-color: rgb(255, 255,
255);"><span class=""><br class="">
</span></div>
<div class="" style="margin: 0px;
font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;
font-family: 'Helvetica Neue'; color:
rgb(29, 33, 41);
-webkit-text-stroke-width: initial;
-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(29, 33,
41); background-color: rgb(255, 255,
255);"><span class="">That is already
a Turing Complete theory.</span></div>
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">So information/numbers are
independent of the carrier, and the
carrier becomes only an appearance from
some self-referential modes of the
universal number or “machine”.
Pythagorus was right, at least provably
so in the frame of the Mechanist
Hypothesis. Primary Matter is perhaps
the last phlogiston of the human mind.
With mechanism, weak materialism is
false, and physics is not the
fundamental science. The physical
reality appearance has a
*reason*/*explanation* relying on the
notion of (Turing) universality.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">All the best!</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Bruno</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="" style="word-wrap:
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode:
space; -webkit-line-break:
after-white-space;">
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Lou Kauffman</div>
<div class="">P.S. With this letter,
I reach my quota for the week and
will remain silent until next
Monday.</div>
<div class="">If anyone wants a
private email conversation, I
shall be happy to carry on in that
fashion.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Apr 25, 2018,
at 2:20 AM, Krassimir Markov
<<a
href="mailto:markov@foibg.com"
class="" rel=" noopener
noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">markov@foibg.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
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0cm 0cm 10pt;
line-height:
16.866666793823242px;
font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
Calibri,
sans-serif;"><span
class=""
style="line-height:
16pt;"><font
class=""
style="font-size:
14pt;">Dear
Mark and
Colleagues,</font></span></p>
<div class=""
style="margin:
0cm 0cm 10pt;
line-height:
16.866666793823242px;
font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
Calibri,
sans-serif;"><span
class=""
style="line-height:
16pt;"></span> <br
class="webkit-block-placeholder_mailru_css_attribute_postfix">
</div>
<p
class="MsoNormal_mailru_css_attribute_postfix"
style="margin:
0cm 0cm 10pt;
line-height:
16.866666793823242px;
font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
Calibri,
sans-serif;"><span
class=""
style="line-height:
16pt;"><font
class=""
style="font-size:
14pt;">Very
nice “simple
question”:
“Is
information
physical?”</font></span></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal_mailru_css_attribute_postfix"
style="margin:
0cm 0cm 10pt;
line-height:
16.866666793823242px;
font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
Calibri,
sans-serif;"><span
class=""
style="line-height:
16pt;"><font
class=""
style="font-size:
14pt;">I agree
that “letters,
electromagnetic waves and actually all physical objects are only
carriers of
information”.</font></span></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal_mailru_css_attribute_postfix"
style="margin:
0cm 0cm 10pt;
line-height:
16.866666793823242px;
font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
Calibri,
sans-serif;"><span
class=""
style="line-height:
16pt;"><font
class=""
style="font-size:
14pt;">The
brain is
carrier of
information,
too.<span
class="Apple-converted-space_mailru_css_attribute_postfix"> </span></font></span></p>
<div class=""
style="margin:
0cm 0cm 10pt;
line-height:
16.866666793823242px;
font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
Calibri,
sans-serif;"><span
class=""
style="line-height:
16pt;"></span> <br
class="webkit-block-placeholder_mailru_css_attribute_postfix">
</div>
<p
class="MsoNormal_mailru_css_attribute_postfix"
style="margin:
0cm 0cm 10pt;
line-height:
16.866666793823242px;
font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
Calibri,
sans-serif;"><span
class=""
style="line-height:
16pt;"><font
class=""
style="font-size:
14pt;">Now, I
think, what we
need to clear
is another
“simple
question”
closely
interrelated
to yours:</font></span></p>
<div class=""
style="margin:
0cm 0cm 10pt;
line-height:
16.866666793823242px;
font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
Calibri,
sans-serif;"><span
class=""
style="line-height:
16pt;"><span
class=""
style="line-height:
16pt;"></span></span> <br
class="webkit-block-placeholder_mailru_css_attribute_postfix">
</div>
<p
class="MsoNormal_mailru_css_attribute_postfix"
style="margin:
0cm 0cm 10pt;
line-height:
16.866666793823242px;
font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
Calibri,
sans-serif;"><span
class=""
style="line-height:
16pt;"><span
class=""
style="line-height:
16pt;"><font
class=""
style="font-size:
14pt;">Does
the
information
exist without
the carrier?</font></span></span></p>
<div class=""
style="margin:
0cm 0cm 10pt;
line-height:
16.866666793823242px;
font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
Calibri,
sans-serif;"><span
class=""
style="line-height:
16pt;"></span> <br
class="webkit-block-placeholder_mailru_css_attribute_postfix">
</div>
<p
class="MsoNormal_mailru_css_attribute_postfix"
style="margin:
0cm 0cm 10pt;
line-height:
16.866666793823242px;
font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
Calibri,
sans-serif;"><span
class=""
style="line-height:
16pt;"><font
class=""
style="font-size:
14pt;">In
other words,
can the color,
speed, weigh,
temperature,
time, etc.,
exist without
objects which
these
characteristics
belong to and
may be
measured by
other objects.<span
class="Apple-converted-space_mailru_css_attribute_postfix"> </span></font></span></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal_mailru_css_attribute_postfix"
style="margin:
0cm 0cm 10pt;
line-height:
16.866666793823242px;
font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
Calibri,
sans-serif;"><span
class=""
style="line-height:
16pt;"><font
class=""
style="font-size:
14pt;">To
understand
more clearly,
let see the
case of
“time”.</font></span></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal_mailru_css_attribute_postfix"
style="margin:
0cm 0cm 10pt;
line-height:
16.866666793823242px;
font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
Calibri,
sans-serif;"><span
class=""
style="line-height:
16pt;"><font
class=""
style="font-size:
14pt;">Does
the time
really exist?</font></span></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal_mailru_css_attribute_postfix"
style="margin:
0cm 0cm 10pt;
line-height:
16.866666793823242px;
font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
Calibri,
sans-serif;"><span
class=""
style="line-height:
16pt;"><font
class=""
style="font-size:
14pt;"><span
class=""
style="line-height:
16pt;"><font
class=""
size="4">Does
the time exist</font><span
class="Apple-converted-space_mailru_css_attribute_postfix"> </span>w</span>ithout
real regular
processes
which we may
reflect and
compare?</font></span></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal_mailru_css_attribute_postfix"
style="margin:
0cm 0cm 10pt;
line-height:
16.866666793823242px;
font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
Calibri,
sans-serif;"><span
class=""
style="line-height:
16pt;"><font
class=""
style="font-size:
14pt;">The
time is<span
class="Apple-converted-space_mailru_css_attribute_postfix"> </span></font></span><font
class=""
style="font-size:
14pt;"><span
class=""
style="line-height:
16pt;"
lang="EN">falling
drops of water</span><span
class=""
style="line-height:
16pt;">,<span
class="Apple-converted-space_mailru_css_attribute_postfix"> </span></span></font><span
class=""
style="line-height:
16pt;"
lang="EN"><font
class=""
style="font-size:
14pt;">the
movement of
the pendulum,
etc.</font></span></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal_mailru_css_attribute_postfix"
style="margin:
0cm 0cm 10pt;
line-height:
16.866666793823242px;
font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
Calibri,
sans-serif;"><span
class=""
style="line-height:
16pt;"><font
class=""
style="font-size:
14pt;">One may
say, the time
is information
about all
these
processes.</font></span></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal_mailru_css_attribute_postfix"
style="margin:
0cm 0cm 10pt;
line-height:
16.866666793823242px;
font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
Calibri,
sans-serif;"><span
class=""
style="line-height:
16pt;"><font
class=""
style="font-size:
14pt;">OK!
But, if these
processes do
not exist,
will we have
“time”?</font></span></p>
<div class=""
style="margin:
0cm 0cm 10pt;
line-height:
16.866666793823242px;
font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
Calibri,
sans-serif;"><span
class=""
style="line-height:
16pt;"></span> <br
class="webkit-block-placeholder_mailru_css_attribute_postfix">
</div>
<p
class="MsoNormal_mailru_css_attribute_postfix"
style="margin:
0cm 0cm 10pt;
line-height:
16.866666793823242px;
font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
Calibri,
sans-serif;"><span
class=""
style="line-height:
16pt;"><font
class=""
style="font-size:
14pt;">I
think, we have
a question in
two
interrelated
explanations:<span
class="Apple-converted-space_mailru_css_attribute_postfix"> </span></font></span></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal_mailru_css_attribute_postfix"
style="margin:
0cm 0cm 10pt;
line-height:
16.866666793823242px;
font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
Calibri,
sans-serif;"><span
class=""
style="line-height:
16pt;"><font
class=""
style="font-size:
14pt;">- Is
information
physical?</font></span></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal_mailru_css_attribute_postfix"
style="margin:
0cm 0cm 10pt;
line-height:
16.866666793823242px;
font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
Calibri,
sans-serif;"><span
class=""
style="line-height:
16pt;"><font
class=""
style="font-size:
14pt;">- Does
the
information
exist without
the carrier?</font></span></p>
<div class=""
style="margin:
0cm 0cm 10pt;
line-height:
16.866666793823242px;
font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
Calibri,
sans-serif;"><span
class=""
style="line-height:
16pt;"></span> <br
class="webkit-block-placeholder_mailru_css_attribute_postfix">
</div>
<p
class="MsoNormal_mailru_css_attribute_postfix"
style="margin:
0cm 0cm 10pt;
line-height:
16.866666793823242px;
font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
Calibri,
sans-serif;"><span
class=""
style="line-height:
16pt;"><font
class=""
style="font-size:
14pt;">Friendly
greetings</font></span></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal_mailru_css_attribute_postfix"
style="margin:
0cm 0cm 10pt;
line-height:
16.866666793823242px;
font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
Calibri,
sans-serif;"><span
class=""
style="line-height:
16pt;"><font
class=""
style="font-size:
14pt;">Krassimir</font></span></p>
</font></div>
<div class="">
<div class=""
style="font-size:
small;
text-decoration:
none; font-family:
Calibri;
font-weight:
normal;
font-style:
normal; display:
inline;"><font
class=""
size="4"><font
class=""
size="4"><b
class="">From:</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space_mailru_css_attribute_postfix"> </span></font><a
title="mburgin@math.ucla.edu" href="mailto:mburgin@math.ucla.edu"
class="" rel="
noopener
noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true"><font
class=""
size="4">Burgin,
Mark</font></a></font></div>
<div class=""
style="font-style:
normal;
font-variant:
normal;
font-weight:
normal; font-size:
10pt; line-height:
normal;
font-family:
tahoma;">
<div class=""
style="background-color:
rgb(245, 245,
245);">
<p
class="MsoNormal_mailru_css_attribute_postfix"
style="margin:
0cm 0cm 10pt;
line-height:
16.866666793823242px;
font-size:
11pt;
font-family:
Calibri,
sans-serif;"><span
class="shorttext_mailru_css_attribute_postfix"><span class=""
style="line-height:
16pt;"
lang="EN"><font
class=""
style="font-size:
14pt;
background-color:
rgb(255, 255,
255);"
color="#222222">the
movement of
the pendulum</font></span></span></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal_mailru_css_attribute_postfix"
style="margin:
0cm 0cm 10pt;
line-height:
16.866666793823242px;
font-size:
11pt;
font-family:
Calibri,
sans-serif;"><span
class="shorttext_mailru_css_attribute_postfix"><span class=""
style="line-height:
16pt;"
lang="EN"><font
class=""
style="font-size:
14pt;
background-color:
rgb(255, 255,
255);"
color="#222222">falling
drops of water</font></span></span><span
class=""
style="line-height:
16pt;"></span></p>
<div class=""><b
class="">Sent:</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space_mailru_css_attribute_postfix"> </span>Wednesday,
April 25, 2018
4:47 AM</div>
<div class=""><b
class="">To:</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space_mailru_css_attribute_postfix"> </span><a
title="fis@listas.unizar.es"
href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" class="" rel=" noopener noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">fis@listas.unizar.es</a></div>
<div class=""><b
class="">Subject:</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space_mailru_css_attribute_postfix"> </span>Re:
[Fis] Is
information
physical?</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=""> </div>
</div>
<div class="">Dear
Colleagues,</div>
<div class="">I would
like to suggest the
new topic for
discussion</div>
<div class="">
Is information
physical?<br
class="">
</div>
<div class="">My
opinion is presented
below:<br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br
class="webkit-block-placeholder_mailru_css_attribute_postfix">
</div>
<div class=""
style="margin: 0in
0in 0.0001pt;
font-size: 10.5pt;
font-family:
consolas;"><span
class=""><span
class=""> <span
class="Apple-converted-space_mailru_css_attribute_postfix"> </span></span>Why
some people
erroneously think
that information
is physical</span></div>
<div class=""
style="margin: 0in
0in 0.0001pt;
font-size: 10.5pt;
font-family:
consolas;"><span
class=""><span
class=""> <span
class="Apple-converted-space_mailru_css_attribute_postfix"> </span></span></span></div>
<div class=""
style="margin: 0in
0in 0.0001pt;
font-size: 10.5pt;
font-family:
consolas;"><span
class=""><span
class=""> <span
class="Apple-converted-space_mailru_css_attribute_postfix"> </span></span>The
main reason to
think that
information is
physical is the
strong belief of
many people,
especially,
scientists that
there is only
physical reality,
which is studied
by science. At the
same time, people
encounter
something that
they call
information.</span></div>
<div class=""
style="margin: 0in
0in 0.0001pt;
font-size: 10.5pt;
font-family:
consolas;"><span
class=""><span
class=""> <span
class="Apple-converted-space_mailru_css_attribute_postfix"> </span></span>When
people receive a
letter, they
comprehend that it
is information
because with the
letter they
receive
information. The
letter is
physical, i.e., a
physical object.
As a result,
people start
thinking that
information is
physical. When
people receive an
e-mail, they
comprehend that it
is information
because with the
e-mail they
receive
information. The
e-mail comes to
the computer in
the form of
electromagnetic
waves, which are
physical. As a
result, people
start thinking
even more that
information is
physical.</span></div>
<div class=""
style="margin: 0in
0in 0.0001pt;
font-size: 10.5pt;
font-family:
consolas;"><span
class=""><span
class=""> <span
class="Apple-converted-space_mailru_css_attribute_postfix"> </span></span>However,
letters,
electromagnetic
waves and actually
all physical
objects are only
carriers or
containers of
information.</span></div>
<div class=""
style="margin: 0in
0in 0.0001pt;
font-size: 10.5pt;
font-family:
consolas;"><span
class=""><span
class=""> <span
class="Apple-converted-space_mailru_css_attribute_postfix"> </span></span>To
understand this
better, let us
consider a
textbook. Is
possible to say
that this book is
knowledge? Any
reasonable person
will tell that the
textbook contains
knowledge but is
not knowledge
itself. In the
same way, the
textbook contains
information but is
not information
itself. The same
is true for
letters, e-mails,
electromagnetic
waves and other
physical objects
because all of
them only contain
information but
are not
information. For
instance, as we
know, different
letters can
contain the same
information. Even
if we make an
identical copy of
a letter or any
other text, then
the letter and its
copy will be
different physical
objects (physical
things) but they
will contain the
same information.</span></div>
<div class=""
style="margin: 0in
0in 0.0001pt;
font-size: 10.5pt;
font-family:
consolas;"><span
class=""><span
class=""> <span
class="Apple-converted-space_mailru_css_attribute_postfix"> </span></span>Information
belongs to a
different
(non-physical)
world of
knowledge, data
and similar
essences. In spite
of this,
information can
act on physical
objects (physical
bodies) and this
action also
misleads people
who think that
information is
physical.</span></div>
<div class=""
style="margin: 0in
0in 0.0001pt;
font-size: 10.5pt;
font-family:
consolas;"><span
class=""><span
class=""> <span
class="Apple-converted-space_mailru_css_attribute_postfix"> </span></span>One
more misleading
property of
information is
that people can
measure it. This
brings an
erroneous
assumption that it
is possible to
measure only
physical essences.
Naturally, this
brings people to
the erroneous
conclusion that
information is
physical. However,
measuring
information is
essentially
different than
measuring physical
quantities, i.e.,
weight. There are
no “scales” that
measure
information. Only
human intellect
can do this.</span></div>
<div class=""
style="margin: 0in
0in 0.0001pt;
font-size: 10.5pt;
font-family:
consolas;"><span
class=""><span
class=""> <span
class="Apple-converted-space_mailru_css_attribute_postfix"> </span></span>It
is possible to
find more
explanations that
information is not
physical in the
general theory of
information.<span
class="Apple-converted-space_mailru_css_attribute_postfix"> </span></span></div>
Sincerely,<br class="">
Mark Burgin<br
class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<div
class="moz-cite-prefix_mailru_css_attribute_postfix">On
4/24/2018 10:46 AM,
Pedro C. Marijuan
wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:19330aa9-0909-d588-732f-a71068769dba@aragon.es"
type="cite" class="">Dear
FIS Colleagues,<br
class="">
<br class="">
A very interesting
discussion theme has
been proposed by
Mark Burgin --he
will post at his
early convenience.<span
class="Apple-converted-space_mailru_css_attribute_postfix"> </span><br
class="">
Thanks are due to
Alberto for his
"dataism" piece.
Quite probably we
will need to revisit
that theme, as it is
gaining increasing
momentum in present
"information
societies", in
science as well as
in everyday life...<br
class="">
Thanks also to Sung
for his interesting
viewpoint and
references.<br
class="">
<br class="">
Best wishes to all,<br
class="">
--Pedro<font
class="" size="+2"><span
class="Apple-converted-space_mailru_css_attribute_postfix"> </span><br
class="">
</font><br class="">
<pre class="moz-signature_mailru_css_attribute_postfix" cols="72">
-------------------------------------------------
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated_mailru_css_attribute_postfix" href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" moz-do-not-send="true" rel=" noopener noreferrer">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext_mailru_css_attribute_postfix" href="http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/" moz-do-not-send="true" rel=" noopener noreferrer">http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/</a>
------------------------------------------------- </pre>
<div
id="DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2_mailru_css_attribute_postfix"
class=""><br
class="">
<table class=""
style="border-top-color:
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1px;
border-top-style:
solid;">
<tbody class="">
<tr class="">
<td class=""
style="width:
55px;
padding-top:
18px;"><a
href="https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="" rel=" noopener noreferrer"><img alt=""
src="https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange-animated-no-repeat-v1.gif"
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font-family:
arial,
helvetica,
sans-serif;
width: 470px;
color: rgb(65,
66, 78);
padding-top:
17px;
line-height:
18px;">Libre
de virus.<span
class="Apple-converted-space_mailru_css_attribute_postfix"> </span><a
href="https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="" rel=" noopener noreferrer" style="color:
rgb(68, 83,
234);">www.avast.com</a></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
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<br class="">
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rgb(255, 255, 255); float:
none; display: inline
!important;">_______________________________________________</span><br
class=""
style="font-family:
Helvetica; font-size:
12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant: normal;
font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal;
line-height: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align:
start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none;
white-space: normal;
widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255);">
<span class=""
style="font-family:
Helvetica; font-size:
12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant: normal;
font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal;
line-height: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align:
start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none;
white-space: normal;
widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255); float:
none; display: inline
!important;">Fis mailing
list</span><br class=""
style="font-family:
Helvetica; font-size:
12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant: normal;
font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal;
line-height: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align:
start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none;
white-space: normal;
widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255);">
<a
href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es"
class="" rel=" noopener
noreferrer"
style="font-family:
Helvetica; font-size:
12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant: normal;
font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal;
line-height: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align:
start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none;
white-space: normal;
widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255);"
moz-do-not-send="true">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br
class=""
style="font-family:
Helvetica; font-size:
12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant: normal;
font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal;
line-height: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align:
start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none;
white-space: normal;
widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255);">
<a
href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis"
class="" rel=" noopener
noreferrer"
style="font-family:
Helvetica; font-size:
12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant: normal;
font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal;
line-height: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align:
start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none;
white-space: normal;
widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255);"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><br
class=""
style="font-family:
Helvetica; font-size:
12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant: normal;
font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal;
line-height: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align:
start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none;
white-space: normal;
widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255);">
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="">
</div>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br class="">
Fis mailing list<br class="">
<a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es"
class="" rel=" noopener noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br
class="">
<a
href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis"
class="" moz-do-not-send="true">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><br
class="">
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="">
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="">_______________________________________________<br
class="">
Fis mailing list<br class="">
<a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br
class="">
<a
href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis"
class="" moz-do-not-send="true">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><br
class="">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align:
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none;
display: inline !important;" class="">_______________________________________________</span><br
style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align:
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">
<span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align:
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none;
display: inline !important;" class="">Fis mailing
list</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align:
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">
<a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es"
style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align:
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br
style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align:
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">
<a
href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis"
style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align:
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a></div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="">
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br>
<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Fis mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
John Collier<br>
Emeritus Professor and Senior Research Associate<br>
Philosophy, University of KwaZulu-Natal, Durban<br>
<a href="http://web.ncf.ca/collier">Collier web page </a><br>
</div>
</body>
</html>