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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 14pt"><FONT
size=4>Dear Mark and Colleagues,</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 14pt"><FONT
size=4></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 14pt"><FONT
size=4>The question “Is information physical?” is very important as well as so
important are the questions “Is information chemical?”, “Is information
mechanical?”, “Is information electronic?”, and etc. .</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 14pt"><FONT
size=4>All questions above may be summarized to “Is information real?” and, of
course, the question “Is information mental?” immediately rises! </FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 14pt"><FONT
size=4>My answer to all these question is “YES!”.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 14pt"><FONT
size=4>At the first place, let me remember what is “Real” and what is
“Mental”.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 14pt"><FONT
size=4>I have written, that our brains are prisoners in the Plato sense
(remember the Plato “Prisoners in the cave”). <BR><FONT size=4>All what is
outside the brain is reflected true the receptors (sensors). </FONT></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 14pt"><FONT
size=4>So, the “<STRONG>Real</STRONG>” is what exists outside my brain and
“<STRONG>Mental</STRONG>” is what is inside of my brain.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 14pt"><FONT
size=4>Taking in account current knowledge about brain, we may say that the same
classification may be applied for the brain subsystems. </FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 14pt"><FONT
size=4>The Right brain hemisphere is outside of the Left one. <BR>So the first
is “Real” for the second and vice versa, and corresponded “internal brain
receptors” exist. <BR>Going further, we may see the same for the different zones
of the Right and Left hemispheres.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 14pt"><FONT
size=4>My brain is outside of yours as well as your brains are outside of mine.
</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 14pt"><FONT
size=4>And what is “Mental” for you is “Real” for me.</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 14pt"><FONT
size=4><FONT size=4>The conclusion is: “<STRONG>The information is “Real” or
“Mental” depending of point of view!</STRONG>”.</FONT></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 14pt">
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 14pt"><FONT
size=4></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 14pt"><FONT
size=4>To be continued...</FONT></P>
<P></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 14pt"><FONT
size=4></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 14pt"><FONT
size=4>Friendly greetings</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 14pt"><FONT
size=4>Krassimir</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 14pt"><FONT
size=4></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 14pt"><FONT
size=4></FONT> </P>
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<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=ag659@ncf.ca
href="mailto:ag659@ncf.ca">John Collier</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, April 28, 2018 1:00 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=fis@listas.unizar.es
href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es">fis@listas.unizar.es</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Fis] Is information physical? OR Does the information
exist without the carrier?</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV
style='FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri"; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline'>Dear
group,<BR><BR>I think that linguistic philosophy is largely thought now to be a
dead end. I agree with the second point, though.<BR><BR>I especially agree with
Loet's point in response to Lou Kauffman. Scientific measurement, not to even
mention testing of hypotheses.<BR><BR>My preference rather than for
communications studies is general systems theory, which applies to all levels. I
don't think a full reduction to physics, even in some physical sciences like
mineralogy, is possible.<BR><BR>Best,<BR>John<BR><BR>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix>On 2018/04/28 8:28 AM, Loet Leydesdorff
wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite=mid:em33d09753-9d07-49fb-abde-569dbf7f3af9@pc2014
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<DIV>Dear colleagues, </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Not only logic, but also language is not directly and one-to-one coupled
to physics. The hidden positivism of claiming priority for physics by some of
us, is at odds with the linguistic turn in the philosophy of science.
Furthermore, the issue is not directly related to the definition of
information as probablistic entropy or otherwise.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I agree with most of what Lou Kauffman said, but: </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV id=xcd1793806ab0437
style="WORD-WRAP: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space">
<BLOCKQUOTE class=cite2 cite=D30A2F6C-8B3C-41A6-B63E-7F3BA57B2477@uic.edu
type="cite">
<DIV>We come to investigate both reason and physicality through each other
and our ability to sense and feel.</DIV>
<DIV>Sensing and feeling and measurement are our terms for those places
where concept and the physical arise together in our
perception.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV id=xcd1793806ab0437
style="WORD-WRAP: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space">The
emphasis in the above remains on the individual sensing and feeling, mediated
by measurement. However, scientific observation is not such immediate feeling,
but careful and discursively constructed articulations of expectations which
are tested against observations. The cocon of language (a la Maturana) is
opened at specific places which are carefully reasoned. The feelings do enter
only after having been articulated into observational reports. The latter
contain knowledge claims which are validated discursively. No escape! The
observations enable us to improve the codification in the specialist language
(jargon).</DIV>
<DIV id=xcd1793806ab0437
style="WORD-WRAP: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space"> </DIV>
<DIV id=xcd1793806ab0437
style="WORD-WRAP: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space">Physics
is part of this edifice of science. It has no privileged access to reality,
but constructs its own reality. Nobody senses the particles at CERN. The
observational reports are readings from an instrument which have to be
discussed before one can interpret.</DIV>
<DIV id=xcd1793806ab0437
style="WORD-WRAP: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space"> </DIV>
<DIV id=xcd1793806ab0437
style="WORD-WRAP: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space">If
any science can claim priority, it is communication studies. The specialist
languages are shaped in processes of communication. How does this work? Can it
be improved?</DIV>
<DIV id=xcd1793806ab0437
style="WORD-WRAP: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space"> </DIV>
<DIV id=xcd1793806ab0437
style="WORD-WRAP: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space">Best,</DIV>
<DIV id=xcd1793806ab0437
style="WORD-WRAP: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space">Loet</DIV>
<DIV id=xcd1793806ab0437
style="WORD-WRAP: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space"> </DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=cite2 cite=D30A2F6C-8B3C-41A6-B63E-7F3BA57B2477@uic.edu
type="cite">
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>5. Beyond those places where significant related pairs of opposites
that cannot be separated (complementarities) occur there is our (in at least
my tradition)</DIV>
<DIV>personal reality of unity — whereof nothing can be said. </DIV>
<DIV>6. We cannot sever philosophy and logic and reason from science, AND
for science we must open to the largest possible access to precision and
understanding.</DIV>
<DIV>Best,</DIV>
<DIV>Lou</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV>On Apr 27, 2018, at 4:38 AM, <A href="mailto:tozziarturo@libero.it"
moz-do-not-send="true">tozziarturo@libero.it</A> wrote:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<P
style="WHITE-SPACE: normal; WORD-SPACING: 0px; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; FONT: 12px helvetica; MARGIN-TOP: 0px; LETTER-SPACING: normal; TEXT-INDENT: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"
dir=ltr>Dear Bruno,<SPAN class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>You
claim: "all computations exists independently of the existence of anything
physical".<BR>I never heard, apart probably from Berkeley and Tegmark, a
more untestable, metaphyisical, a-scientific, unquantifiable claim. <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN></P>
<P
style="WHITE-SPACE: normal; WORD-SPACING: 0px; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; FONT: 12px helvetica; LETTER-SPACING: normal; TEXT-INDENT: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"
dir=ltr>Dear FISers, we NEED to deal with something testable and
quantifiable, otherwise we are doing philosophy and logic, not
science! Even if information is (as many FISers suggest) at least in
part not physical, we NEED to focus just on the testable part, i.e., the
physical one. And, even if physics does not exist, as Bruno states,
at least it gives me something quantifiable and useful for my pragmatic
purposes.<BR>Even if information is something subjective in my mind
(totally untestable, but very popular claim) who cares, by a scientific
standpoint?<BR>If I say that Julius Caesar was killed by an alien, the
theory is fashinating, but useless, unless I provide proofs or testable
clues. <SPAN class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN></P>
<DIV id=mail-app-auto-default-signature
style="WHITE-SPACE: normal; WORD-SPACING: 0px; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; FONT: 12px helvetica; LETTER-SPACING: normal; TEXT-INDENT: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px">
<P dir=ltr>--<BR>Inviato da Libero Mail per Android</P></DIV><SPAN
style="WHITE-SPACE: normal; WORD-SPACING: 0px; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; FLOAT: none; FONT: 12px helvetica; DISPLAY: inline !important; LETTER-SPACING: normal; TEXT-INDENT: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px">venerdì,
27 aprile 2018, 10:10AM +02:00 da Bruno Marchal<SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN></SPAN><A
style="WHITE-SPACE: normal; WORD-SPACING: 0px; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; FONT: 12px helvetica; LETTER-SPACING: normal; TEXT-INDENT: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"
href="mailto:marchal@ulb.ac.be"
moz-do-not-send="true">marchal@ulb.ac.be</A><SPAN
style="WHITE-SPACE: normal; WORD-SPACING: 0px; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; FLOAT: none; FONT: 12px helvetica; DISPLAY: inline !important; LETTER-SPACING: normal; TEXT-INDENT: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px">:</SPAN><BR
style="WHITE-SPACE: normal; WORD-SPACING: 0px; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; FONT: 12px helvetica; LETTER-SPACING: normal; TEXT-INDENT: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"><BR
style="WHITE-SPACE: normal; WORD-SPACING: 0px; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; FONT: 12px helvetica; LETTER-SPACING: normal; TEXT-INDENT: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px">
<BLOCKQUOTE id=mail-app-auto-quote
style="WHITE-SPACE: normal; WORD-SPACING: 0px; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px; FONT: 12px helvetica; PADDING-LEFT: 10px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 10px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(133,175,49) 1px solid; LETTER-SPACING: normal; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; TEXT-INDENT: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"
cite=x-msg://159/15248167570000034974>
<DIV class="js-helper js-readmsg-msg">
<DIV>
<DIV id=style_15248167570000034974_BODY>
<DIV class=class_1524821735>Hi Lou, Colleagues,
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV>On 25 Apr 2018, at 16:55, Louis H Kauffman <<A
href="mailto:kauffman@uic.edu"
rel=" noopener
noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">kauffman@uic.edu</A>> wrote:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="WORD-WRAP: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space">Dear
Krassimir and Mark,
<DIV>Let us not forget the intermediate question:</DIV>
<DIV>How is information independent of the choice of carrier?</DIV>
<DIV>This is the fruitful question in my opinion, and it avoids the
problem of assigning existence to that which is relational.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The same problem exists for numbers and other mathematical
entities. Does the number 2 exist without any couples?</DIV>
<DIV>The mathematical answer is to construct a standard couple (e.g. {
{ }, {{}} } in set theory or two marks || in formalism) and say that
</DIV>
<DIV>a collection has cardinality two if it can be placed in 1-1
correspondence with the standard couple. In this way of speaking we do
not have to </DIV>
<DIV>assign an existence to two as a noun. The Russelian
alternative — to take two to be the collection of all couples —
is a fascinating intellectual move, but</DIV>
<DIV>I prefer to avoid it by not having to speak of the existence of
two in such a way. Two is a concept and it is outside of formal
systems and outside of the physical</DIV>
<DIV>except in that we who have that concept are linked with formalism
and linked with the apparent physical.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>And let us not forget the other question.</DIV>
<DIV>What is "the physical”?</DIV>
<DIV>What we take to be physical arises as a relation between our
sensing (and generalized sensing) and our ability to form
concepts.</DIV>
<DIV>To imagine that the “physical” exists independent of that
relation is an extra assumption that is not necessary for scientific
work, however</DIV>
<DIV>attractive or repelling it may seem.</DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>Indeed, the existence of a physical ontology is an
hypothesis in metaphysics, and not in physics. It was brought mainly by
Aristotle and even more by its followers. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>What can be shown, is that if we assume Digital Mechanism in the
cognitive science, then the physical cannot be ontological, and physics
has to be reduced to the psychology, or better the theology of the
digital machine. My contribution shows this testable, and the physical
observations, up to now, favour the non existence of primary
matter (as amazing and counter-intuive this could seem).</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>What many people seem to miss is that the notion of universal
machine and the notion of computations (Turing, Post, Church, Kleene)
are purely arithmetical notion. Anyone who is able to believe that (3^3)
+ (4^3) + (5^3) = (6^3) is necessarily either true or false even without
verifying which it is, should be able to understand that all
computations exists independently of the existence of anything physical,
and then a reasoning can show that it is easier to explain the illusion
of an otological matter to complex number relation, than to explain the
numbers in term of complex relation between primary matter. In fact it
is impossible, and the notion of primary matter adds unnecessary
insuperable difficulties in the “mind-body” problem.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Now, Landauer, and others, have given some evidence that some
notion of information is physical (like quantum information). That does
not contradict the idea that information is not physical. The illusion
of physical appearances is real, obeys laws, and physics is eventually
reduced into an internal statistics on all computations in arithmetic,
and that can explain some special form of physical information (and
indeed the quantum one is already explained in some testable way).</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The origin of information comes from the fact that aTuring machine
cannot distinguish the physical reality from the arithmetical reality
(which emulates all computations) except by observation. The machines
are distributed in infinitely many exemplars in arithmetic, and that
defines a sort of indexical differentiating consciousness flux, leading
to (collective) sharable deep dreams which we call the physical.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Now, all this is long to explain, and I’m afraid this can look too
much provocative, if I do not add the proofs and much more explanations.
People can consult my papers, but needs to study a bit of mathematical
logic.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Physicalism/materialism is a long lasting habit of thought, and, as
I have experienced my whole life, some materialist defend the dogma with
more integrism and violence than some (pseudo)-religious radicals in
history. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Once we assume mechanism, all we need to assume to get both mind
and matter is *any* universal machine or machinery, and then the usual
platonic epistemological definitions can be used (but they can also be
motivated through some thought experience). </DIV>
<DIV>For the universal machinery, I use (very) elementary arithmetic,
because everyone is familiar with them, and can accept that “17 is
prime” is true independently of them, which would not be the case with
((K K) K) = K in combinators theory (generally not known). But we can
derive arithmetic, and the physical dreams from just very small
theories, like</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica Neue'; COLOR: rgb(29,33,41); MARGIN: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(29, 33,
41)"><SPAN
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255)">((K x) y) = x</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica Neue'; COLOR: rgb(29,33,41); MARGIN: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(29, 33,
41)"><SPAN>(((S
x) y) z) = ((x z) (y z))</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica Neue'; COLOR: rgb(29,33,41); MARGIN: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(29, 33,
41)"> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>(Axioms of the SK-combinators: that is Turing Universal!)</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Or, very elementary arithmetic (Peano arithmetic without induction,
+ the predecessor axiom), i.e, classical logic +</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica Neue'; COLOR: rgb(29,33,41); MARGIN: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(29, 33,
41)"><SPAN
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255)">0 ≠ s(x)</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica Neue'; COLOR: rgb(29,33,41); MARGIN: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(29, 33,
41)"><SPAN
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255)">s(x) = s(y) -> x =
y</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica Neue'; COLOR: rgb(29,33,41); MARGIN: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(29, 33,
41)"><SPAN
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255)">x = 0 v Ey(x =
s(y)) </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica Neue'; COLOR: rgb(29,33,41); MARGIN: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(29, 33,
41)"><SPAN
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255)">x+0 = x</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica Neue'; COLOR: rgb(29,33,41); MARGIN: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(29, 33,
41)"><SPAN
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255)">x+s(y) = s(x+y)</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica Neue'; COLOR: rgb(29,33,41); MARGIN: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(29, 33,
41)"><SPAN
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255)">x*0=0</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica Neue'; COLOR: rgb(29,33,41); MARGIN: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(29, 33,
41)"><SPAN>x*s(y)=(x*y)+x</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica Neue'; COLOR: rgb(29,33,41); MARGIN: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(29, 33,
41)"><SPAN><BR></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica Neue'; COLOR: rgb(29,33,41); MARGIN: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); -webkit-text-stroke-width: initial; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(29, 33,
41)"><SPAN>That
is already a Turing Complete theory.</SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>So information/numbers are independent of the carrier, and the
carrier becomes only an appearance from some self-referential modes of
the universal number or “machine”. Pythagorus was right, at least
provably so in the frame of the Mechanist Hypothesis. Primary Matter is
perhaps the last phlogiston of the human mind. With mechanism, weak
materialism is false, and physics is not the fundamental science. The
physical reality appearance has a *reason*/*explanation* relying on the
notion of (Turing) universality.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>All the best!</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Bruno</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV
style="WORD-WRAP: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space">
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Lou Kauffman</DIV>
<DIV>P.S. With this letter, I reach my quota for the week and will
remain silent until next Monday.</DIV>
<DIV>If anyone wants a private email conversation, I shall be happy to
carry on in that fashion.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV>On Apr 25, 2018, at 2:20 AM, Krassimir Markov <<A
href="mailto:markov@foibg.com"
rel=" noopener
noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">markov@foibg.com</A>> wrote:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="WHITE-SPACE: normal; WORD-SPACING: 0px; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; FONT: 12px helvetica; LETTER-SPACING: normal; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"
dir=ltr>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri">
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: calibri; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline">
<DIV><FONT size=4>
<P class=MsoNormal_mailru_css_attribute_postfix
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri,
sans-serif; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 16px"><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 16pt"><FONT style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt">Dear Mark
and Colleagues,</FONT></SPAN></P>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri,
sans-serif; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 16px"><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 16pt"></SPAN><BR
class=webkit-block-placeholder_mailru_css_attribute_postfix> </DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal_mailru_css_attribute_postfix
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri,
sans-serif; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 16px"><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 16pt"><FONT style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt">Very nice
“simple question”: “Is information
physical?”</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal_mailru_css_attribute_postfix
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri,
sans-serif; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 16px"><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 16pt"><FONT style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt">I agree that
“letters, electromagnetic waves and actually all physical objects
are only carriers of information”.</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal_mailru_css_attribute_postfix
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri,
sans-serif; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 16px"><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 16pt"><FONT style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt">The brain is
carrier of information, too.<SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space_mailru_css_attribute_postfix> </SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri,
sans-serif; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 16px"><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 16pt"></SPAN><BR
class=webkit-block-placeholder_mailru_css_attribute_postfix> </DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal_mailru_css_attribute_postfix
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri,
sans-serif; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 16px"><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 16pt"><FONT style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt">Now, I
think, what we need to clear is another “simple question” closely
interrelated to yours:</FONT></SPAN></P>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri,
sans-serif; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 16px"><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 16pt"><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 16pt"></SPAN></SPAN><BR
class=webkit-block-placeholder_mailru_css_attribute_postfix> </DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal_mailru_css_attribute_postfix
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri,
sans-serif; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 16px"><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 16pt"><SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: 16pt"><FONT
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt">Does the information exist without the
carrier?</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></P>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri,
sans-serif; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 16px"><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 16pt"></SPAN><BR
class=webkit-block-placeholder_mailru_css_attribute_postfix> </DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal_mailru_css_attribute_postfix
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri,
sans-serif; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 16px"><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 16pt"><FONT style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt">In other
words, can the color, speed, weigh, temperature, time, etc., exist
without objects which these characteristics belong to and may be
measured by other objects.<SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space_mailru_css_attribute_postfix> </SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal_mailru_css_attribute_postfix
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri,
sans-serif; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 16px"><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 16pt"><FONT style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt">To
understand more clearly, let see the case of
“time”.</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal_mailru_css_attribute_postfix
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri,
sans-serif; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 16px"><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 16pt"><FONT style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt">Does the
time really exist?</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal_mailru_css_attribute_postfix
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri,
sans-serif; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 16px"><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 16pt"><FONT style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt"><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 16pt"><FONT size=4>Does the time
exist</FONT><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space_mailru_css_attribute_postfix> </SPAN>w</SPAN>ithout
real regular processes which we may reflect and
compare?</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal_mailru_css_attribute_postfix
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri,
sans-serif; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 16px"><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 16pt"><FONT style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt">The time
is<SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space_mailru_css_attribute_postfix> </SPAN></FONT></SPAN><FONT
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt"><SPAN lang=EN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 16pt">falling drops of water</SPAN><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 16pt">,<SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space_mailru_css_attribute_postfix> </SPAN></SPAN></FONT><SPAN
lang=EN style="LINE-HEIGHT: 16pt"><FONT style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt">the
movement of the pendulum, etc.</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal_mailru_css_attribute_postfix
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri,
sans-serif; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 16px"><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 16pt"><FONT style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt">One may say,
the time is information about all these processes.</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal_mailru_css_attribute_postfix
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri,
sans-serif; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 16px"><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 16pt"><FONT style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt">OK! But, if
these processes do not exist, will we have “time”?</FONT></SPAN></P>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri,
sans-serif; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 16px"><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 16pt"></SPAN><BR
class=webkit-block-placeholder_mailru_css_attribute_postfix> </DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal_mailru_css_attribute_postfix
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri,
sans-serif; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 16px"><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 16pt"><FONT style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt">I think, we
have a question in two interrelated explanations:<SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space_mailru_css_attribute_postfix> </SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal_mailru_css_attribute_postfix
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri,
sans-serif; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 16px"><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 16pt"><FONT style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt">- Is
information physical?</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal_mailru_css_attribute_postfix
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri,
sans-serif; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 16px"><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 16pt"><FONT style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt">- Does the
information exist without the carrier?</FONT></SPAN></P>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri,
sans-serif; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 16px"><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 16pt"></SPAN><BR
class=webkit-block-placeholder_mailru_css_attribute_postfix> </DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal_mailru_css_attribute_postfix
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri,
sans-serif; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 16px"><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 16pt"><FONT style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt">Friendly
greetings</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal_mailru_css_attribute_postfix
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri,
sans-serif; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 16px"><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 16pt"><FONT
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt">Krassimir</FONT></SPAN></P></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: calibri; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline"><FONT
size=4><FONT size=4><B>From:</B><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space_mailru_css_attribute_postfix> </SPAN></FONT><A
title=mburgin@math.ucla.edu href="mailto:mburgin@math.ucla.edu"
rel="
noopener
noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true"><FONT size=4>Burgin,
Mark</FONT></A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt tahoma">
<DIV style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(245,245,245)">
<P class=MsoNormal_mailru_css_attribute_postfix
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri,
sans-serif; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 16px"><SPAN
class=shorttext_mailru_css_attribute_postfix><SPAN lang=EN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 16pt"><FONT
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255)"
color=#222222>the movement of the pendulum</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal_mailru_css_attribute_postfix
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri,
sans-serif; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 16px"><SPAN
class=shorttext_mailru_css_attribute_postfix><SPAN lang=EN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 16pt"><FONT
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255)"
color=#222222>falling drops of water</FONT></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 16pt"></SPAN></P>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space_mailru_css_attribute_postfix> </SPAN>Wednesday,
April 25, 2018 4:47 AM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space_mailru_css_attribute_postfix> </SPAN><A
title=fis@listas.unizar.es href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es"
rel=" noopener noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">fis@listas.unizar.es</A></DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space_mailru_css_attribute_postfix> </SPAN>Re:
[Fis] Is information physical?</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>Dear Colleagues,</DIV>
<DIV>I would like to suggest the new topic for discussion</DIV>
<DIV>
Is information physical?<BR></DIV>
<DIV>My opinion is presented below:<BR></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: consolas; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN><SPAN>
<SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space_mailru_css_attribute_postfix> </SPAN></SPAN>Why
some people erroneously think that information is
physical</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: consolas; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN><SPAN>
<SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space_mailru_css_attribute_postfix> </SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: consolas; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN><SPAN>
<SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space_mailru_css_attribute_postfix> </SPAN></SPAN>The
main reason to think that information is physical is the strong
belief of many people, especially, scientists that there is only
physical reality, which is studied by science. At the same time,
people encounter something that they call information.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: consolas; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN><SPAN>
<SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space_mailru_css_attribute_postfix> </SPAN></SPAN>When
people receive a letter, they comprehend that it is information
because with the letter they receive information. The letter is
physical, i.e., a physical object. As a result, people start
thinking that information is physical. When people receive an
e-mail, they comprehend that it is information because with the
e-mail they receive information. The e-mail comes to the computer in
the form of electromagnetic waves, which are physical. As a result,
people start thinking even more that information is
physical.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: consolas; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN><SPAN>
<SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space_mailru_css_attribute_postfix> </SPAN></SPAN>However,
letters, electromagnetic waves and actually all physical objects are
only carriers or containers of information.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: consolas; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN><SPAN>
<SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space_mailru_css_attribute_postfix> </SPAN></SPAN>To
understand this better, let us consider a textbook. Is possible to
say that this book is knowledge? Any reasonable person will tell
that the textbook contains knowledge but is not knowledge itself. In
the same way, the textbook contains information but is not
information itself. The same is true for letters, e-mails,
electromagnetic waves and other physical objects because all of them
only contain information but are not information. For instance, as
we know, different letters can contain the same information. Even if
we make an identical copy of a letter or any other text, then the
letter and its copy will be different physical objects (physical
things) but they will contain the same information.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: consolas; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN><SPAN>
<SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space_mailru_css_attribute_postfix> </SPAN></SPAN>Information
belongs to a different (non-physical) world of knowledge, data and
similar essences. In spite of this, information can act on physical
objects (physical bodies) and this action also misleads people who
think that information is physical.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: consolas; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN><SPAN>
<SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space_mailru_css_attribute_postfix> </SPAN></SPAN>One
more misleading property of information is that people can measure
it. This brings an erroneous assumption that it is possible to
measure only physical essences. Naturally, this brings people to the
erroneous conclusion that information is physical. However,
measuring information is essentially different than measuring
physical quantities, i.e., weight. There are no “scales” that
measure information. Only human intellect can do this.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: consolas; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN><SPAN>
<SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space_mailru_css_attribute_postfix> </SPAN></SPAN>It
is possible to find more explanations that information is not
physical in the general theory of information.<SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space_mailru_css_attribute_postfix> </SPAN></SPAN></DIV>Sincerely,<BR>Mark
Burgin<BR><BR><BR>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix_mailru_css_attribute_postfix>On 4/24/2018
10:46 AM, Pedro C. Marijuan wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite=mid:19330aa9-0909-d588-732f-a71068769dba@aragon.es
type="cite">Dear FIS Colleagues,<BR><BR>A very interesting
discussion theme has been proposed by Mark Burgin --he will post
at his early convenience.<SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space_mailru_css_attribute_postfix> </SPAN><BR>Thanks
are due to Alberto for his "dataism" piece. Quite probably we will
need to revisit that theme, as it is gaining increasing momentum
in present "information societies", in science as well as in
everyday life...<BR>Thanks also to Sung for his interesting
viewpoint and references.<BR><BR>Best wishes to
all,<BR>--Pedro<FONT size=+2><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space_mailru_css_attribute_postfix> </SPAN><BR></FONT><BR><PRE class=moz-signature_mailru_css_attribute_postfix cols="72">
-------------------------------------------------
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
<A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated_mailru_css_attribute_postfix href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" rel=" noopener noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</A>
<A class=moz-txt-link-freetext_mailru_css_attribute_postfix href="http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/" rel=" noopener noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true">http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/</A>
------------------------------------------------- </PRE>
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<FIELDSET class=mimeAttachmentHeader></FIELDSET> <BR><PRE wrap="">_______________________________________________
Fis mailing list
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</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<DIV class=moz-signature>-- <BR>John Collier<BR>Emeritus Professor and Senior
Research Associate<BR>Philosophy, University of KwaZulu-Natal, Durban<BR><A
href="http://web.ncf.ca/collier">Collier web page </A><BR></DIV>
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