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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Dear Krassimir<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">When I cut up brains in my young days I never found any mental contend in brains. This inside outside metaphor is very
interesting, but I am not sure it is productive for the advancement of knowledge. “The brain “ is our physiological model of the central nervous system and there is nothing in our knowledge from that level of reality that help us making a model of how mental
qualia is produced. That does not change when we go to the quantum level. We lack a transdisciplinary model encompassing the quantitative, the qualitative and the formal to get to a more fruitful formulation of the problem.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"> Best<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"> Søren Brier<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext"> Fis <fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Krassimir Markov<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 28. april 2018 13:23<br>
<b>To:</b> fis@listas.unizar.es<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Fis] “The information is “Real” or “Mental” depending of point of view!”.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:10.0pt;line-height:14.0pt"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Dear Mark and Colleagues,</span><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:10.0pt;line-height:14.0pt"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:10.0pt;line-height:14.0pt"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">The question “Is information physical?” is very important as well as so important are the questions “Is information chemical?”,
“Is information mechanical?”, “Is information electronic?”, and etc. .</span><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:10.0pt;line-height:14.0pt"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">All questions above may be summarized to “Is information real?” and, of course, the question “Is information mental?” immediately
rises! </span><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:10.0pt;line-height:14.0pt"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">My answer to all these question is “YES!”.</span><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:10.0pt;line-height:14.0pt"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">At the first place, let me remember what is “Real” and what is “Mental”.</span><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:10.0pt;line-height:14.0pt"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">I have written, that our brains are prisoners in the Plato sense (remember the Plato “Prisoners in the cave”).
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All what is outside the brain is reflected true the receptors (sensors). </span><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:10.0pt;line-height:14.0pt"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">So, the “<strong><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Real</span></strong>” is what exists outside my brain and “<strong><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Mental</span></strong>”
is what is inside of my brain.</span><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:10.0pt;line-height:14.0pt"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Taking in account current knowledge about brain, we may say that the same classification may be applied for the brain subsystems.
</span><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:10.0pt;line-height:14.0pt"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">The Right brain hemisphere is outside of the Left one.
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So the first is “Real” for the second and vice versa, and corresponded “internal brain receptors” exist.
<br>
Going further, we may see the same for the different zones of the Right and Left hemispheres.</span><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:10.0pt;line-height:14.0pt"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">My brain is outside of yours as well as your brains are outside of mine.
</span><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:10.0pt;line-height:14.0pt"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">And what is “Mental” for you is “Real” for me.</span><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:10.0pt;line-height:14.0pt"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">The conclusion is: “<strong><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">The information is “Real” or “Mental” depending of
point of view!</span></strong>”.</span><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:10.0pt;line-height:14.0pt"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:10.0pt;line-height:14.0pt"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">To be continued...</span><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:10.0pt;line-height:14.0pt"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:10.0pt;line-height:14.0pt"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Friendly greetings</span><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:10.0pt;line-height:14.0pt"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Krassimir</span><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:10.0pt;line-height:14.0pt"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:10.0pt;line-height:14.0pt"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:whitesmoke"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">
<a href="mailto:ag659@ncf.ca" title="ag659@ncf.ca">John Collier</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:whitesmoke"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">Sent:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif"> Saturday, April 28, 2018 1:00 PM<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:whitesmoke"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">To:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">
<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" title="fis@listas.unizar.es">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:whitesmoke"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">Subject:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif"> Re: [Fis] Is information physical? OR Does the information
exist without the carrier?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Dear group,<br>
<br>
I think that linguistic philosophy is largely thought now to be a dead end. I agree with the second point, though.<br>
<br>
I especially agree with Loet's point in response to Lou Kauffman. Scientific measurement, not to even mention testing of hypotheses.<br>
<br>
My preference rather than for communications studies is general systems theory, which applies to all levels. I don't think a full reduction to physics, even in some physical sciences like mineralogy, is possible.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
John<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">On 2018/04/28 8:28 AM, Loet Leydesdorff wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Dear colleagues,
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Not only logic, but also language is not directly and one-to-one coupled to physics. The hidden positivism of claiming priority for physics by some of us, is at odds with the linguistic turn
in the philosophy of science. Furthermore, the issue is not directly related to the definition of information as probablistic entropy or otherwise.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">I agree with most of what Lou Kauffman said, but:
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">We come to investigate both reason and physicality through each other and our ability to sense and feel.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Sensing and feeling and measurement are our terms for those places where concept and the physical arise together in our perception.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">The emphasis in the above remains on the individual sensing and feeling, mediated by measurement. However, scientific observation is not such immediate feeling, but careful and discursively
constructed articulations of expectations which are tested against observations. The cocon of language (a la Maturana) is opened at specific places which are carefully reasoned. The feelings do enter only after having been articulated into observational reports.
The latter contain knowledge claims which are validated discursively. No escape! The observations enable us to improve the codification in the specialist language (jargon).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Physics is part of this edifice of science. It has no privileged access to reality, but constructs its own reality. Nobody senses the particles at CERN. The observational reports are readings
from an instrument which have to be discussed before one can interpret.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">If any science can claim priority, it is communication studies. The specialist languages are shaped in processes of communication. How does this work? Can it be improved?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Best,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Loet<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">5. Beyond those places where significant related pairs of opposites that cannot be separated (complementarities) occur there is our (in at least my tradition)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">personal reality of unity — whereof nothing can be said.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">6. We cannot sever philosophy and logic and reason from science, AND for science we must open to the largest possible access to precision and understanding.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Best,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Lou<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">On Apr 27, 2018, at 4:38 AM,
<a href="mailto:tozziarturo@libero.it">tozziarturo@libero.it</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p style="margin-top:0cm;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Dear Bruno,<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
You claim: "all computations exists independently of the existence of anything physical".<br>
I never heard, apart probably from Berkeley and Tegmark, a more untestable, metaphyisical, a-scientific, unquantifiable claim.
<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Dear FISers, we NEED to deal with something testable and quantifiable, otherwise we are doing philosophy and logic, not science! Even
if information is (as many FISers suggest) at least in part not physical, we NEED to focus just on the testable part, i.e., the physical one. And, even if physics does not exist, as Bruno states, at least it gives me something quantifiable and useful for
my pragmatic purposes.<br>
Even if information is something subjective in my mind (totally untestable, but very popular claim) who cares, by a scientific standpoint?<br>
If I say that Julius Caesar was killed by an alien, the theory is fashinating, but useless, unless I provide proofs or testable clues.
<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">--<br>
Inviato da Libero Mail per Android<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">venerdì, 27 aprile 2018, 10:10AM +02:00 da Bruno Marchal<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><a href="mailto:marchal@ulb.ac.be"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">marchal@ulb.ac.be</span></a></span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">:<br>
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</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Hi Lou, Colleagues,
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">On 25 Apr 2018, at 16:55, Louis H Kauffman <<a href="mailto:kauffman@uic.edu">kauffman@uic.edu</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Dear Krassimir and Mark,
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Let us not forget the intermediate question:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">How is information independent of the choice of carrier?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">This is the fruitful question in my opinion, and it avoids the problem of assigning existence to that which is relational.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">The same problem exists for numbers and other mathematical entities. Does the number 2 exist without any couples?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">The mathematical answer is to construct a standard couple (e.g. { { }, {{}} } in set theory or two marks || in formalism) and say that
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">a collection has cardinality two if it can be placed in 1-1 correspondence with the standard couple. In this way of speaking we do not have to
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">assign an existence to two as a noun. The Russelian alternative — to take two to be the collection of all couples — is a fascinating intellectual move, but<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">I prefer to avoid it by not having to speak of the existence of two in such a way. Two is a concept and it is outside of formal systems and outside of the physical<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">except in that we who have that concept are linked with formalism and linked with the apparent physical.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">And let us not forget the other question.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">What is "the physical”?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">What we take to be physical arises as a relation between our sensing (and generalized sensing) and our ability to form concepts.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">To imagine that the “physical” exists independent of that relation is an extra assumption that is not necessary for scientific work, however<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">attractive or repelling it may seem.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Indeed, the existence of a physical ontology is an hypothesis in metaphysics, and not in physics. It was brought mainly by Aristotle and even more by its followers.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">What can be shown, is that if we assume Digital Mechanism in the cognitive science, then the physical cannot be ontological, and physics has to be reduced to the psychology,
or better the theology of the digital machine. My contribution shows this testable, and the physical observations, up to now, favour the non existence of primary matter (as amazing and counter-intuive this could seem).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">What many people seem to miss is that the notion of universal machine and the notion of computations (Turing, Post, Church, Kleene) are purely arithmetical notion. Anyone
who is able to believe that (3^3) + (4^3) + (5^3) = (6^3) is necessarily either true or false even without verifying which it is, should be able to understand that all computations exists independently of the existence of anything physical, and then a reasoning
can show that it is easier to explain the illusion of an otological matter to complex number relation, than to explain the numbers in term of complex relation between primary matter. In fact it is impossible, and the notion of primary matter adds unnecessary
insuperable difficulties in the “mind-body” problem.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Now, Landauer, and others, have given some evidence that some notion of information is physical (like quantum information). That does not contradict the idea that information
is not physical. The illusion of physical appearances is real, obeys laws, and physics is eventually reduced into an internal statistics on all computations in arithmetic, and that can explain some special form of physical information (and indeed the quantum
one is already explained in some testable way).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">The origin of information comes from the fact that aTuring machine cannot distinguish the physical reality from the arithmetical reality (which emulates all computations)
except by observation. The machines are distributed in infinitely many exemplars in arithmetic, and that defines a sort of indexical differentiating consciousness flux, leading to (collective) sharable deep dreams which we call the physical.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Now, all this is long to explain, and I’m afraid this can look too much provocative, if I do not add the proofs and much more explanations. People can consult my papers, but
needs to study a bit of mathematical logic.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Physicalism/materialism is a long lasting habit of thought, and, as I have experienced my whole life, some materialist defend the dogma with more integrism and violence than
some (pseudo)-religious radicals in history. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Once we assume mechanism, all we need to assume to get both mind and matter is *any* universal machine or machinery, and then the usual platonic epistemological definitions
can be used (but they can also be motivated through some thought experience). <o:p>
</o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">For the universal machinery, I use (very) elementary arithmetic, because everyone is familiar with them, and can accept that “17 is prime” is true independently of them, which
would not be the case with ((K K) K) = K in combinators theory (generally not known). But we can derive arithmetic, and the physical dreams from just very small theories, like<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue",serif;color:#1D2129;background:white">((K x) y) = x</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue",serif;color:#1D2129"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue",serif;color:#1D2129">(((S x) y) z) = ((x z) (y z))<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue",serif;color:#1D2129"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">(Axioms of the SK-combinators: that is Turing Universal!)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Or, very elementary arithmetic (Peano arithmetic without induction, + the predecessor axiom), i.e, classical logic +<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue",serif;color:#1D2129;background:white">0 ≠ s(x)</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue",serif;color:#1D2129"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue",serif;color:#1D2129;background:white">s(x) = s(y) -> x = y</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue",serif;color:#1D2129"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue",serif;color:#1D2129;background:white">x = 0 v Ey(x = s(y))
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue",serif;color:#1D2129"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue",serif;color:#1D2129;background:white">x+0 = x</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue",serif;color:#1D2129"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue",serif;color:#1D2129;background:white">x+s(y) = s(x+y)</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue",serif;color:#1D2129"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue",serif;color:#1D2129;background:white">x*0=0</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue",serif;color:#1D2129"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue",serif;color:#1D2129">x*s(y)=(x*y)+x<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue",serif;color:#1D2129"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue",serif;color:#1D2129">That is already a Turing Complete theory.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">So information/numbers are independent of the carrier, and the carrier becomes only an appearance from some self-referential modes of the universal number or “machine”. Pythagorus
was right, at least provably so in the frame of the Mechanist Hypothesis. Primary Matter is perhaps the last phlogiston of the human mind. With mechanism, weak materialism is false, and physics is not the fundamental science. The physical reality appearance
has a *reason*/*explanation* relying on the notion of (Turing) universality.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">All the best!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Bruno<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Lou Kauffman<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">P.S. With this letter, I reach my quota for the week and will remain silent until next Monday.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">If anyone wants a private email conversation, I shall be happy to carry on in that fashion.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">On Apr 25, 2018, at 2:20 AM, Krassimir Markov <<a href="mailto:markov@foibg.com">markov@foibg.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="msonormalmailrucssattributepostfix" style="mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:10.0pt;margin-left:0cm;mso-line-height-alt:12.0pt;background:white">
<span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Dear Mark and Colleagues,</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:12.0pt;background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="msonormalmailrucssattributepostfix" style="mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:10.0pt;margin-left:0cm;mso-line-height-alt:12.0pt;background:white">
<span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Very nice “simple question”: “Is information physical?”</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="msonormalmailrucssattributepostfix" style="mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:10.0pt;margin-left:0cm;mso-line-height-alt:12.0pt;background:white">
<span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">I agree that “letters, electromagnetic waves and actually all physical objects are only carriers of information”.</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="msonormalmailrucssattributepostfix" style="mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:10.0pt;margin-left:0cm;mso-line-height-alt:12.0pt;background:white">
<span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">The brain is carrier of information, too.<span class="apple-converted-spacemailrucssattributepostfix"> </span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:12.0pt;background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="msonormalmailrucssattributepostfix" style="mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:10.0pt;margin-left:0cm;mso-line-height-alt:12.0pt;background:white">
<span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Now, I think, what we need to clear is another “simple question” closely interrelated to yours:</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:12.0pt;background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="msonormalmailrucssattributepostfix" style="mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:10.0pt;margin-left:0cm;mso-line-height-alt:12.0pt;background:white">
<span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Does the information exist without the carrier?</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:12.0pt;background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="msonormalmailrucssattributepostfix" style="mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:10.0pt;margin-left:0cm;mso-line-height-alt:12.0pt;background:white">
<span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">In other words, can the color, speed, weigh, temperature, time, etc., exist without objects which these characteristics belong to and may be measured by other objects.<span class="apple-converted-spacemailrucssattributepostfix"> </span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="msonormalmailrucssattributepostfix" style="mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:10.0pt;margin-left:0cm;mso-line-height-alt:12.0pt;background:white">
<span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">To understand more clearly, let see the case of “time”.</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="msonormalmailrucssattributepostfix" style="mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:10.0pt;margin-left:0cm;mso-line-height-alt:12.0pt;background:white">
<span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Does the time really exist?</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="msonormalmailrucssattributepostfix" style="mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:10.0pt;margin-left:0cm;mso-line-height-alt:12.0pt;background:white">
<span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Does the time exist</span><span class="apple-converted-spacemailrucssattributepostfix"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></span><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">without
real regular processes which we may reflect and compare?</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="msonormalmailrucssattributepostfix" style="mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:10.0pt;margin-left:0cm;mso-line-height-alt:12.0pt;background:white">
<span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">The time is<span class="apple-converted-spacemailrucssattributepostfix"> </span></span><span lang="EN" style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">falling drops of water</span><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">,<span class="apple-converted-spacemailrucssattributepostfix"> </span></span><span lang="EN" style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">the
movement of the pendulum, etc.</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="msonormalmailrucssattributepostfix" style="mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:10.0pt;margin-left:0cm;mso-line-height-alt:12.0pt;background:white">
<span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">One may say, the time is information about all these processes.</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="msonormalmailrucssattributepostfix" style="mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:10.0pt;margin-left:0cm;mso-line-height-alt:12.0pt;background:white">
<span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">OK! But, if these processes do not exist, will we have “time”?</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div style="margin-bottom:10.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:12.0pt;background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="msonormalmailrucssattributepostfix" style="mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:10.0pt;margin-left:0cm;mso-line-height-alt:12.0pt;background:white">
<span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">I think, we have a question in two interrelated explanations:<span class="apple-converted-spacemailrucssattributepostfix"> </span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="msonormalmailrucssattributepostfix" style="mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:10.0pt;margin-left:0cm;mso-line-height-alt:12.0pt;background:white">
<span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">- Is information physical?</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="msonormalmailrucssattributepostfix" style="mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:10.0pt;margin-left:0cm;mso-line-height-alt:12.0pt;background:white">
<span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">- Does the information exist without the carrier?</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div style="margin-bottom:10.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:12.0pt;background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="msonormalmailrucssattributepostfix" style="mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:10.0pt;margin-left:0cm;mso-line-height-alt:12.0pt;background:white">
<span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Friendly greetings</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="msonormalmailrucssattributepostfix" style="mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:10.0pt;margin-left:0cm;mso-line-height-alt:12.0pt;background:white">
<span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Krassimir</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><b><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-spacemailrucssattributepostfix"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></span><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><a href="mailto:mburgin@math.ucla.edu" title="mburgin@math.ucla.edu">Burgin,
Mark</a></span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="msonormalmailrucssattributepostfix" style="mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:10.0pt;margin-left:0cm;mso-line-height-alt:12.0pt;background:whitesmoke">
<span class="shorttextmailrucssattributepostfix"><span lang="EN" style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#222222;background:white">the movement of the pendulum</span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="msonormalmailrucssattributepostfix" style="mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:10.0pt;margin-left:0cm;mso-line-height-alt:12.0pt;background:whitesmoke">
<span class="shorttextmailrucssattributepostfix"><span lang="EN" style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#222222;background:white">falling drops of water</span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:whitesmoke"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">Sent:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-spacemailrucssattributepostfix"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif"> </span></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">Wednesday,
April 25, 2018 4:47 AM<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:whitesmoke"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">To:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-spacemailrucssattributepostfix"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif"> </span></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif"><a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" title="fis@listas.unizar.es">fis@listas.unizar.es</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:whitesmoke"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">Subject:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-spacemailrucssattributepostfix"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif"> </span></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">Re:
[Fis] Is information physical?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Dear Colleagues,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">I would like to suggest the new topic for discussion<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Is information physical?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">My opinion is presented below:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">
<span class="apple-converted-spacemailrucssattributepostfix"> </span>Why some people erroneously think that information is physical<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">
<span class="apple-converted-spacemailrucssattributepostfix"> </span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">
<span class="apple-converted-spacemailrucssattributepostfix"> </span>The main reason to think that information is physical is the strong belief of many people, especially, scientists that there is only physical reality, which is studied by science. At the same
time, people encounter something that they call information.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">
<span class="apple-converted-spacemailrucssattributepostfix"> </span>When people receive a letter, they comprehend that it is information because with the letter they receive information. The letter is physical, i.e., a physical object. As a result, people
start thinking that information is physical. When people receive an e-mail, they comprehend that it is information because with the e-mail they receive information. The e-mail comes to the computer in the form of electromagnetic waves, which are physical.
As a result, people start thinking even more that information is physical.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">
<span class="apple-converted-spacemailrucssattributepostfix"> </span>However, letters, electromagnetic waves and actually all physical objects are only carriers or containers of information.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">
<span class="apple-converted-spacemailrucssattributepostfix"> </span>To understand this better, let us consider a textbook. Is possible to say that this book is knowledge? Any reasonable person will tell that the textbook contains knowledge but is not knowledge
itself. In the same way, the textbook contains information but is not information itself. The same is true for letters, e-mails, electromagnetic waves and other physical objects because all of them only contain information but are not information. For instance,
as we know, different letters can contain the same information. Even if we make an identical copy of a letter or any other text, then the letter and its copy will be different physical objects (physical things) but they will contain the same information.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">
<span class="apple-converted-spacemailrucssattributepostfix"> </span>Information belongs to a different (non-physical) world of knowledge, data and similar essences. In spite of this, information can act on physical objects (physical bodies) and this action
also misleads people who think that information is physical.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">
<span class="apple-converted-spacemailrucssattributepostfix"> </span>One more misleading property of information is that people can measure it. This brings an erroneous assumption that it is possible to measure only physical essences. Naturally, this brings
people to the erroneous conclusion that information is physical. However, measuring information is essentially different than measuring physical quantities, i.e., weight. There are no “scales” that measure information. Only human intellect can do this.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas">
<span class="apple-converted-spacemailrucssattributepostfix"> </span>It is possible to find more explanations that information is not physical in the general theory of information.<span class="apple-converted-spacemailrucssattributepostfix"> </span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Sincerely,<br>
Mark Burgin<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">On 4/24/2018 10:46 AM, Pedro C. Marijuan wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Dear FIS Colleagues,<br>
<br>
A very interesting discussion theme has been proposed by Mark Burgin --he will post at his early convenience.<span class="apple-converted-spacemailrucssattributepostfix"> </span><br>
Thanks are due to Alberto for his "dataism" piece. Quite probably we will need to revisit that theme, as it is gaining increasing momentum in present "information societies", in science as well as in everyday life...<br>
Thanks also to Sung for his interesting viewpoint and references.<br>
<br>
Best wishes to all,<br>
--Pedro</span><span class="apple-converted-spacemailrucssattributepostfix"><span style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></span><span style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><br>
</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<pre style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="background:white">-------------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="background:white">Pedro C. Marijuán<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="background:white">Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="background:white"><a href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="background:white"><a href="http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/">http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="background:white">------------------------------------------------- <o:p></o:p></pre>
<div id="DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2_mailru_css_attribute_postfix">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<table class="MsoNormalTable" border="1" cellspacing="3" cellpadding="0" style="border:none;border-top:solid #D3D4DE 1.0pt">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td width="58" style="width:41.25pt;border:none;padding:13.5pt .75pt .75pt .75pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif"><a href="https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient"><span style="border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm;text-decoration:none"><img border="0" width="46" height="29" style="width:.4791in;height:.3055in" id="_x0000_i1025" src="cid:image001.jpg@01D3DF1F.43C01B80" alt="Image removed by sender."></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width="473" style="width:352.5pt;border:none;padding:12.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:13.5pt"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#41424E">Libre de virus.<span class="apple-converted-spacemailrucssattributepostfix"> </span><a href="https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient"><span style="color:#4453EA">www.avast.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<pre style="background:white">_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="background:white">Fis mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="background:white"><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="background:white"><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center;background:white">
<span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
<hr size="3" width="100%" align="center">
</span></div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">_______________________________________________<br>
Fis mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br>
<a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;background:white">_______________________________________________</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><br>
<span style="background:white">Fis mailing list</span><br>
<a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es"><span style="background:white">Fis@listas.unizar.es</span></a><br>
<a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis"><span style="background:white">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">_______________________________________________<br>
Fis mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br>
<a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">_______________________________________________<br>
Fis mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br>
<a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">_______________________________________________<br>
Fis mailing list<br>
</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Fis@listas.unizar.es</span></a></span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><br>
</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Fis mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">-- <br>
John Collier<br>
Emeritus Professor and Senior Research Associate<br>
Philosophy, University of KwaZulu-Natal, Durban<br>
<a href="http://web.ncf.ca/collier">Collier web page </a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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