<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=windows-1252"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Dear Krassimir and Mark,<div class="">Let us not forget the intermediate question:</div><div class="">How is information independent of the choice of carrier?</div><div class="">This is the fruitful question in my opinion, and it avoids the problem of assigning existence to that which is relational.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">The same problem exists for numbers and other mathematical entities. Does the number 2 exist without any couples?</div><div class="">The mathematical answer is to construct a standard couple (e.g. { { }, {{}} } in set theory or two marks || in formalism) and say that </div><div class="">a collection has cardinality two if it can be placed in 1-1 correspondence with the standard couple. In this way of speaking we do not have to </div><div class="">assign an existence to two as a noun. The Russelian alternative — to take two to be the collection of all couples — is a fascinating intellectual move, but</div><div class="">I prefer to avoid it by not having to speak of the existence of two in such a way. Two is a concept and it is outside of formal systems and outside of the physical</div><div class="">except in that we who have that concept are linked with formalism and linked with the apparent physical.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">And let us not forget the other question.</div><div class="">What is "the physical”?</div><div class="">What we take to be physical arises as a relation between our sensing (and generalized sensing) and our ability to form concepts.</div><div class="">To imagine that the “physical” exists independent of that relation is an extra assumption that is not necessary for scientific work, however</div><div class="">attractive or repelling it may seem.</div><div class="">Best,</div><div class="">Lou Kauffman</div><div class="">P.S. With this letter, I reach my quota for the week and will remain silent until next Monday.</div><div class="">If anyone wants a private email conversation, I shall be happy to carry on in that fashion.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Apr 25, 2018, at 2:20 AM, Krassimir Markov <<a href="mailto:markov@foibg.com" class="">markov@foibg.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="ltr" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><div style="font-size: 14pt; font-family: Calibri;" class=""><div style="font-size: small; text-decoration: none; font-family: Calibri; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; display: inline;" class=""><div class=""><font size="4" class=""><b class=""></b></font></div><div class=""><font size="4" class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt; line-height: 16.866666793823242px; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="line-height: 16pt;" class=""><font style="font-size: 14pt;" class="">Dear Mark and Colleagues,</font></span></p><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt; line-height: 16.866666793823242px; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="line-height: 16pt;" class=""><font style="font-size: 14pt;" class=""></font></span> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt; line-height: 16.866666793823242px; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="line-height: 16pt;" class=""><font style="font-size: 14pt;" class="">Very nice “simple question”: “Is information physical?”</font></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt; line-height: 16.866666793823242px; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="line-height: 16pt;" class=""><font style="font-size: 14pt;" class="">I agree that “letters, electromagnetic waves and actually all physical objects are only carriers of information”.</font></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt; line-height: 16.866666793823242px; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="line-height: 16pt;" class=""><font style="font-size: 14pt;" class="">The brain is carrier of information, too.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></font></span></p><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt; line-height: 16.866666793823242px; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="line-height: 16pt;" class=""><font style="font-size: 14pt;" class=""></font></span> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt; line-height: 16.866666793823242px; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="line-height: 16pt;" class=""><font style="font-size: 14pt;" class="">Now, I think, what we need to clear is another “simple question” closely interrelated to yours:</font></span></p><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt; line-height: 16.866666793823242px; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="line-height: 16pt;" class=""><span style="line-height: 16pt;" class=""><font style="font-size: 14pt;" class=""></font></span></span> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt; line-height: 16.866666793823242px; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="line-height: 16pt;" class=""><span style="line-height: 16pt;" class=""><font style="font-size: 14pt;" class="">Does the information exist without the carrier?</font></span></span></p><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt; line-height: 16.866666793823242px; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="line-height: 16pt;" class=""></span> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt; line-height: 16.866666793823242px; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="line-height: 16pt;" class=""><font style="font-size: 14pt;" class="">In other words, can the color, speed, weigh, temperature, time, etc., exist without objects which these characteristics belong to and may be measured by other objects.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></font></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt; line-height: 16.866666793823242px; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="line-height: 16pt;" class=""><font style="font-size: 14pt;" class="">To understand more clearly, let see the case of “time”.</font></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt; line-height: 16.866666793823242px; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="line-height: 16pt;" class=""><font style="font-size: 14pt;" class="">Does the time really exist?</font></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt; line-height: 16.866666793823242px; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="line-height: 16pt;" class=""><font style="font-size: 14pt;" class=""><span style="line-height: 16pt;" class=""><font size="4" class="">Does the time exist</font><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>w</span>ithout real regular processes which we may reflect and compare?</font></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt; line-height: 16.866666793823242px; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="line-height: 16pt;" class=""><font style="font-size: 14pt;" class="">The time is<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></font></span><font style="font-size: 14pt;" class=""><span lang="EN" style="line-height: 16pt;" class="">falling drops of water</span><span style="line-height: 16pt;" class="">,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></font><span lang="EN" style="line-height: 16pt;" class=""><font style="font-size: 14pt;" class="">the movement of the pendulum, etc.</font></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt; line-height: 16.866666793823242px; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="line-height: 16pt;" class=""><font style="font-size: 14pt;" class="">One may say, the time is information about all these processes.</font></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt; line-height: 16.866666793823242px; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="line-height: 16pt;" class=""><font style="font-size: 14pt;" class="">OK! But, if these processes do not exist, will we have “time”?</font></span></p><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt; line-height: 16.866666793823242px; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="line-height: 16pt;" class=""><font style="font-size: 14pt;" class=""></font></span> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt; line-height: 16.866666793823242px; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="line-height: 16pt;" class=""><font style="font-size: 14pt;" class="">I think, we have a question in two interrelated explanations:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></font></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt; line-height: 16.866666793823242px; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="line-height: 16pt;" class=""><font style="font-size: 14pt;" class="">- Is information physical?</font></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt; line-height: 16.866666793823242px; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="line-height: 16pt;" class=""><font style="font-size: 14pt;" class="">- Does the information exist without the carrier?</font></span></p><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt; line-height: 16.866666793823242px; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="line-height: 16pt;" class=""><font style="font-size: 14pt;" class=""></font></span> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt; line-height: 16.866666793823242px; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="line-height: 16pt;" class=""><font style="font-size: 14pt;" class="">Friendly greetings</font></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt; line-height: 16.866666793823242px; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="line-height: 16pt;" class=""><font style="font-size: 14pt;" class="">Krassimir</font></span></p></font></div><font face="Calibri" class=""><font size="4" class=""><b class=""></b></font></font> <font face="Calibri" class=""><font size="4" class=""><b class=""></b></font></font> <font face="Calibri" class=""><font size="4" class=""><b class=""></b></font></font> <div class=""><font size="4" class=""></font><div style="font-size: small; text-decoration: none; font-family: Calibri; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; display: inline;" class=""><font size="4" class=""><font face="Calibri" class=""><font size="4" class=""><b class="">From:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></font></font><a title="mburgin@math.ucla.edu" href="mailto:mburgin@math.ucla.edu" class=""><font size="4" face="Calibri" class="">Burgin, Mark</font></a><font size="4" face="Calibri" class=""></font></font></div><div style="font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-family: tahoma;" class=""><div style="background-color: rgb(245, 245, 245); background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt; line-height: 16.866666793823242px; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class="shorttext"><span lang="EN" style="line-height: 16pt;" class=""><font color="#222222" style="font-size: 14pt; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">the movement of the pendulum</font></span></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt; line-height: 16.866666793823242px; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class="shorttext"><span lang="EN" style="line-height: 16pt;" class=""><font color="#222222" style="font-size: 14pt; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">falling drops of water</font></span></span><span style="line-height: 16pt;" class=""></span></p><div class=""><b class="">Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Wednesday, April 25, 2018 4:47 AM</div><div class=""><b class="">To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a title="fis@listas.unizar.es" href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" class="">fis@listas.unizar.es</a></div><div class=""><b class="">Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Fis] Is information physical?</div></div></div><div class=""> </div></div><div class="">Dear Colleagues,</div><div class="">I would like to suggest the new topic for discussion</div><div class=""> Is information physical?<br class=""></div><div class="">My opinion is presented below:<br class=""></div><div class=""><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: consolas;" class=""><span class=""><span class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>Why some people erroneously think that information is physical<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: consolas;" class=""><span class=""><span class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: consolas;" class=""><span class=""><span class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>The main reason to think that information is physical is the strong belief of many people, especially, scientists that there is only physical reality, which is studied by science. At the same time, people encounter something that they call information.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: consolas;" class=""><span class=""><span class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>When people receive a letter, they comprehend that it is information because with the letter they receive information. The letter is physical, i.e., a physical object. As a result, people start thinking that information is physical. When people receive an e-mail, they comprehend that it is information because with the e-mail they receive information. The e-mail comes to the computer in the form of electromagnetic waves, which are physical. As a result, people start thinking even more that information is physical.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: consolas;" class=""><span class=""><span class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>However, letters, electromagnetic waves and actually all physical objects are only carriers or containers of information.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: consolas;" class=""><span class=""><span class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>To understand this better, let us consider a textbook. Is possible to say that this book is knowledge? Any reasonable person will tell that the textbook contains knowledge but is not knowledge itself. In the same way, the textbook contains information but is not information itself. The same is true for letters, e-mails, electromagnetic waves and other physical objects because all of them only contain information but are not information. For instance, as we know, different letters can contain the same information. Even if we make an identical copy of a letter or any other text, then the letter and its copy will be different physical objects (physical things) but they will contain the same information.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: consolas;" class=""><span class=""><span class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>Information belongs to a different (non-physical) world of knowledge, data and similar essences. In spite of this, information can act on physical objects (physical bodies) and this action also misleads people who think that information is physical.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: consolas;" class=""><span class=""><span class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>One more misleading property of information is that people can measure it. This brings an erroneous assumption that it is possible to measure only physical essences. Naturally, this brings people to the erroneous conclusion that information is physical. However, measuring information is essentially different than measuring physical quantities, i.e., weight. There are no “scales” that measure information. Only human intellect can do this.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: consolas;" class=""><span class=""><span class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>It is possible to find more explanations that information is not physical in the general theory of information.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>Sincerely,<br class="">Mark Burgin<br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 4/24/2018 10:46 AM, Pedro C. Marijuan wrote:<br class=""></div><blockquote cite="mid:19330aa9-0909-d588-732f-a71068769dba@aragon.es" type="cite" class="">Dear FIS Colleagues,<br class=""><br class="">A very interesting discussion theme has been proposed by Mark Burgin --he will post at his early convenience.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">Thanks are due to Alberto for his "dataism" piece. Quite probably we will need to revisit that theme, as it is gaining increasing momentum in present "information societies", in science as well as in everyday life...<br class="">Thanks also to Sung for his interesting viewpoint and references.<br class=""><br class="">Best wishes to all,<br class="">--Pedro<font size="+2" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""></font><br class=""><pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">
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Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" moz-do-not-send="true">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/" moz-do-not-send="true">http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/</a>
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