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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Dear FISers,<br>
<br>
Apart from the very interesting critique by Sungchul, there is an
intriguing comment I would like to make respect the new
evolutionary views presented. I will risk to discuss on a topic,
topology, too far from my usual fields. So I trust the benevolence
of FIS readers. <br>
<br>
As far as we have been told, the germ line cells, the gametes,
contain each one a DNA algorithmic "hemi-description" of the
future multicellular ensemble organism. When fertilization occurs,
the two different hemi-descriptions are put together in a unique,
complete DNA algorithm. Then, paying attention to the BUT (Borsuk
Ulam Theorem) insights presented in this list by Tozzi and Peters,
we might interpret that two 3D projections are fused into a 4D
one. The gain in information is evident, and it is this gain what
makes possible the construction of the multicellular ensemble.
That 4D structures and dynamics are present in the multicellular
may be evidenced by the fractality of most of that construction
(systems such as circulatory, pulmonary, renal, brain, etc.).
Actually the presence of 4D dynamics in cerebral information
processing has been repeatedly highlighted by different authors.
Now, what John Torday argues, is that an essential mission of the
multicellular construct becomes the gathering of adaptive
epigenetic marks editing the 3D hemi-descriptions, so that the
future ensemble may be better adapted to its environment... <br>
<br>
In the extent to which the above has any cogency, there emerges a
new disciplinary front to check the enigmatic continuation of the
gamete/zigote/organism along the eons of life.<br>
<br>
Best--Pedro <br>
<br>
<br>
El 24/01/2018 a las 15:33, JOHN TORDAY escribió:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAGyb-D2eKsQi5B5nMCSa88CgZ3mfynK6JktCo5dZQ3nKeqpbDg@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Dear FIS colleagues, Pedro has pointed out some
rookie errors in my post. You can find my paper "From
cholesterol to consciousness" at <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28830682">https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28830682</a>.
Hopefully you have access to the paper without having to buy it.
If you don't please email me at <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jtorday@ucla.edu">jtorday@ucla.edu</a> and i will
send you a copy. As for addressing consciousness at the
cellular/molecular level, I understand that the mental health
professionals have a problem with consciousness beyond the
brain/mind. But I consider that anthropocentric. Just like every
other aspect of our physiology, consciousness is the
endogenization of environmental factors. In the case of
consciousness it is the vertical integration of calcium fluxes
for all of the cells of the organism. All organisms are
conscious of their surroundings to one degree or another. And
self-reference is, in my opinion, a result of the
Singularity/Big Bang, so it would apply to all organisms,
unicellular and multicellular alike. I refer to the experiments
of Helmut Plattner, exposing paramecia to glucose. When the
paramecium homes in on the sugar its 'nervous system' of calcium
flux lights up just like the neurons in our brains. And as to
the extrapolation from individual consciousness to cosmology
based on the homologies between Quantum Mechanics and
Evolutionary Biology, I see that as a means of fully
understanding the significance of consciousness as the
connection between the animate and inanimate as one continuous
Singularity. It is only in that way that the true nature of
Nature can be fully understood. As for smaller increments, the
work of Daniel Fels on electromagnetic communication between
cells may hold the answer (<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4793142/">https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4793142/</a>).
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best, John</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 5:41 AM, Pedro
C. Marijuan <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" target="_blank">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<div class="m_-3460398545966745048moz-cite-prefix">Dear
John and FIS colleagues,<br>
<br>
It was nice hearing your response. For technical reasons
of the server, <u>attachments are unwelcome</u> (and
often directly rejected). Send please a web address
where interested people can download your document.
Also, it is better if you send directly your response to
FIS list (<u><b><a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="m_-3460398545966745048moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a></b></u>).
About your content, I see a couple of problems
introducing "consciousness" at the cellular/molecular
level. For this term has a very definite meaning in the
<i>ad hoc</i> research that is taken place during last
decades. Conflating it with basic cellular processes may
not be necessary, given that other terms (more realistic
ones?) are available. For instance, I referred to
self-referential cognition. In any case, I agree that
classical autopoiesis falls too short of what is
needed... Besides, about the cosmological relationship
with fundamental physics, is it a convenient step? Does
it introduce a premature closure in the
bio-informational thinking process? <br>
<br>
Best--Pedro
<div>
<div class="h5"><br>
<br>
El 22/01/2018 a las 16:02, JOHN TORDAY escribió:<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="h5">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Dear FISers, I greatly appreciate
Pedro's comments regarding my New Year Lecture. I
fully agree with his comment "<span
style="font-size:12.800000190734863px"> That
life's physiology is based on the conjunction of
a few principles: neguentropy, chemiosmosis, and
homeostasis-homeorhesis" applies to non-living
states too. I did not intend to make that
statement exclusive, and if it sounded like that
Pedro's clarification is important. In fact have
just published a paper entitled "Quantum
Mechanics Predicts Evolutionary Biology" which
is predicated on the hypothesis that
self-referential self-organization is the result
of the Singularity/Big Bang, Newton's Third Law
of Thermodynamics that every action has an equal
and opposite reaction. That idea would apply to
both evolutionary biology and to balanced
chemical reactions alike. As for the question of
the emergence of self-referential consciousness
'right at the beginning', I am in favor of that
concept, as I have expressed it in a recent
paper, entitled "From Cholesterol to
Consciousness" (see attached) so I look forward
to reading your comments about that idea as
well, since it has the potential to fully
integrate physics and biology in my humble
opinion. </span></div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Jan 22, 2018 at
4:01 AM, Pedro C. Marijuan <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es"
target="_blank">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<div
class="m_-3460398545966745048m_-3976825554907599061moz-cite-prefix">Dear
FISers,<br>
<br>
Going to the extreme, I think this year
opening lecture can be summarized in three
contentious points. <br>
<br>
1. That life's physiology is based on the
conjunction of a few principles:
neguentropy, chemiosmosis, and
homeostasis-homeorhesis.<br>
<br>
2. That communication (cell signaling) is
an essential factor in the multicellular
evolution towards complexity.<br>
<br>
3. That epigenetic inheritance and the
obligate recursion to the unicellular
state become the basis of a new
evolutionary theory.<br>
<br>
I disagree with point 1, as I think some
nonliving states could also be
characterized by those principles (eg,
chemical cycles/hypercycles in marine
vents, and other outcomes derived from
"energy flows"); besides, some previous
"info stuff" has to be in place. Then I
completely agree with point 2, for
signaling is not just another
characteristic of the cell, it is "the"
eukaryotic trait par excellence. And I am
curious on how point 3 could be further
substantiated... In this respect I
recommend the two papers that Bill sent to
the list a few weeks ago. Do we need to
postulate the emergence of a form of
"self-referential cognition" right at the
beginning?<br>
Perhaps!<br>
<br>
All the best--Pedro<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
El 09/01/2018 a las 19:05, Bill escribió:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div
class="m_-3460398545966745048m_-3976825554907599061moz-cite-prefix">Dear
Pedro and Colleagues, <br>
<br>
I have been following the thread of
comments with great interest, all of
which have all been occasioned by John
Torday's profound insights about the
nature of evolutionary development in
light of the importance of cell-cell
signaling and molecular biology. From
the comments, it is clear that there is
a strong impulse to seek a means of
integrating the role of symbiogenesis,
viruses and mobile elements, multilevel
selection, niche construction, genomic
plasticity into a common narrative with
an informational perspective at its
foundation. <br>
In the spirit of that line of
discussion, I am offering two links that
discuss evolution as an biologic
information management system. Some of
this work shares direct commonality with
John's, since he and I are frequent
collaborators. <br>
<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.mdpi.com/2079-7737/5/2/21/htm"
target="_blank">http://www.mdpi.com/2079-7737/<wbr>5/2/21/htm</a><br>
<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S007961071730233X"
target="_blank">https://www.sciencedirect.com/<wbr>science/article/pii/S007961071<wbr>730233X</a><br>
<br>
Both of these articles can be considered
as complementary to Pedro's very fine
article, 'How prokaryotes ‘encode’ their
environment: Systemic tools for
organizing the information flow', which
is in BioSystems. <br>
<br>
I am grateful to John for inviting me to
participate in the forum and to Pedro
for encouraging me to share these
manuscripts. <br>
<br>
Best regards, <br>
Bill<br>
<br>
William B. Miller, Jr., M.D.<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%28602%29%20463-5236"
value="+16024635236" target="_blank">602-463-5236</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="m_-3460398545966745048m_-3976825554907599061moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:wbmiller1@cox.net"
target="_blank">wbmiller1@cox.net</a><span
class="m_-3460398545966745048HOEnZb"><font
color="#888888"><br>
</font></span></div>
<span class="m_-3460398545966745048HOEnZb"><font
color="#888888"> </font></span></blockquote>
<span class="m_-3460398545966745048HOEnZb"><font
color="#888888"> <br>
<pre class="m_-3460398545966745048m_-3976825554907599061moz-signature" cols="72">--
------------------------------<wbr>-------------------
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud
Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA)
Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta 0
50009 Zaragoza, Spain
Tfno. <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:+34%20976%2071%2035%2026" value="+34976713526" target="_blank">+34 976 71 3526</a> (& 6818)
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="m_-3460398545966745048m_-3976825554907599061moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" target="_blank">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="m_-3460398545966745048m_-3976825554907599061moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/" target="_blank">http://sites.google.com/site/p<wbr>edrocmarijuan/</a>
------------------------------<wbr>------------------- </pre>
</font></span></div>
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</blockquote></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>
</p><pre class="m_-3460398545966745048moz-signature" cols="72">--
------------------------------<wbr>-------------------
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud
Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA)
Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta 0
50009 Zaragoza, Spain
Tfno. <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:+34%20976%2071%2035%2026" value="+34976713526" target="_blank">+34 976 71 3526</a> (& 6818)
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="m_-3460398545966745048moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" target="_blank">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="m_-3460398545966745048moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/" target="_blank">http://sites.google.com/site/<wbr>pedrocmarijuan/</a>
------------------------------<wbr>------------------- </pre></div></div></div></blockquote></div>
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</blockquote>
<p>
</p><pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
-------------------------------------------------
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud
Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA)
Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta 0
50009 Zaragoza, Spain
Tfno. +34 976 71 3526 (& 6818)
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/">http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/</a>
------------------------------------------------- </pre></body></html>