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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Dear John and FIS colleagues,<br>
<br>
It was nice hearing your response. For technical reasons of the
server, <u>attachments are unwelcome</u> (and often directly
rejected). Send please a web address where interested people can
download your document. Also, it is better if you send directly
your response to FIS list (<u><b><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es">fis@listas.unizar.es</a></b></u>).
About your content, I see a couple of problems introducing
"consciousness" at the cellular/molecular level. For this term has
a very definite meaning in the <i>ad hoc</i> research that is
taken place during last decades. Conflating it with basic cellular
processes may not be necessary, given that other terms (more
realistic ones?) are available. For instance, I referred to
self-referential cognition. In any case, I agree that classical
autopoiesis falls too short of what is needed... Besides, about
the cosmological relationship with fundamental physics, is it a
convenient step? Does it introduce a premature closure in the
bio-informational thinking process? <br>
<br>
Best--Pedro<br>
<br>
El 22/01/2018 a las 16:02, JOHN TORDAY escribió:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAGyb-D3mtibW9Bo=idPm8LM-w2Jt+XQ+_1n=ZRd=-BPRMiZ0Cw@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Dear FISers, I greatly appreciate Pedro's comments
regarding my New Year Lecture. I fully agree with his comment "<span
style="font-size:12.800000190734863px"> That life's physiology
is based on the conjunction of a few principles: neguentropy,
chemiosmosis, and homeostasis-homeorhesis" applies to
non-living states too. I did not intend to make that statement
exclusive, and if it sounded like that Pedro's clarification
is important. In fact have just published a paper entitled
"Quantum Mechanics Predicts Evolutionary Biology" which is
predicated on the hypothesis that self-referential
self-organization is the result of the Singularity/Big Bang,
Newton's Third Law of Thermodynamics that every action has an
equal and opposite reaction. That idea would apply to both
evolutionary biology and to balanced chemical reactions alike.
As for the question of the emergence of self-referential
consciousness 'right at the beginning', I am in favor of that
concept, as I have expressed it in a recent paper, entitled
"From Cholesterol to Consciousness" (see attached) so I look
forward to reading your comments about that idea as well,
since it has the potential to fully integrate physics and
biology in my humble opinion. </span></div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Jan 22, 2018 at 4:01 AM, Pedro
C. Marijuan <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" target="_blank">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<div class="m_-3976825554907599061moz-cite-prefix">Dear
FISers,<br>
<br>
Going to the extreme, I think this year opening lecture
can be summarized in three contentious points. <br>
<br>
1. That life's physiology is based on the conjunction of
a few principles: neguentropy, chemiosmosis, and
homeostasis-homeorhesis.<br>
<br>
2. That communication (cell signaling) is an essential
factor in the multicellular evolution towards
complexity.<br>
<br>
3. That epigenetic inheritance and the obligate
recursion to the unicellular state become the basis of a
new evolutionary theory.<br>
<br>
I disagree with point 1, as I think some nonliving
states could also be characterized by those principles
(eg, chemical cycles/hypercycles in marine vents, and
other outcomes derived from "energy flows"); besides,
some previous "info stuff" has to be in place. Then I
completely agree with point 2, for signaling is not just
another characteristic of the cell, it is "the"
eukaryotic trait par excellence. And I am curious on
how point 3 could be further substantiated... In this
respect I recommend the two papers that Bill sent to the
list a few weeks ago. Do we need to postulate the
emergence of a form of "self-referential cognition"
right at the beginning?<br>
Perhaps!<br>
<br>
All the best--Pedro<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
El 09/01/2018 a las 19:05, Bill escribió:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div class="m_-3976825554907599061moz-cite-prefix">Dear
Pedro and Colleagues, <br>
<br>
I have been following the thread of comments with
great interest, all of which have all been occasioned
by John Torday's profound insights about the nature of
evolutionary development in light of the importance of
cell-cell signaling and molecular biology. From the
comments, it is clear that there is a strong impulse
to seek a means of integrating the role of
symbiogenesis, viruses and mobile elements, multilevel
selection, niche construction, genomic plasticity into
a common narrative with an informational perspective
at its foundation. <br>
In the spirit of that line of discussion, I am
offering two links that discuss evolution as an
biologic information management system. Some of this
work shares direct commonality with John's, since he
and I are frequent collaborators. <br>
<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.mdpi.com/2079-7737/5/2/21/htm"
target="_blank">http://www.mdpi.com/2079-7737/<wbr>5/2/21/htm</a><br>
<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S007961071730233X"
target="_blank">https://www.sciencedirect.com/<wbr>science/article/pii/<wbr>S007961071730233X</a><br>
<br>
Both of these articles can be considered as
complementary to Pedro's very fine article, 'How
prokaryotes ‘encode’ their environment: Systemic tools
for organizing the information flow', which is in
BioSystems. <br>
<br>
I am grateful to John for inviting me to participate
in the forum and to Pedro for encouraging me to share
these manuscripts. <br>
<br>
Best regards, <br>
Bill<br>
<br>
William B. Miller, Jr., M.D.<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%28602%29%20463-5236" value="+16024635236"
target="_blank">602-463-5236</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="m_-3976825554907599061moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:wbmiller1@cox.net" target="_blank">wbmiller1@cox.net</a><span
class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br>
</font></span></div>
<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"> </font></span></blockquote>
<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"> <br>
<pre class="m_-3976825554907599061moz-signature" cols="72">--
------------------------------<wbr>-------------------
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud
Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA)
Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta 0
50009 Zaragoza, Spain
Tfno. <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:+34%20976%2071%2035%2026" value="+34976713526" target="_blank">+34 976 71 3526</a> (& 6818)
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="m_-3976825554907599061moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" target="_blank">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="m_-3976825554907599061moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/" target="_blank">http://sites.google.com/site/<wbr>pedrocmarijuan/</a>
------------------------------<wbr>------------------- </pre>
</font></span></div>
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</blockquote></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>
</p><pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
-------------------------------------------------
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud
Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA)
Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta 0
50009 Zaragoza, Spain
Tfno. +34 976 71 3526 (& 6818)
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/">http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/</a>
------------------------------------------------- </pre></body></html>