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<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt'>Dear Mark, Dear FISers<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt'>Mark’s term “logic of recursive
transductions” cuts to the heart of the current debate. If one objects
that this is ‘just’ physics or biology, my answer is that it is
both logic and physics and biology, and that many problems have come simply
from our separation of them, and characterizing them without including their
dynamics as processes.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt'>Energy is involved when I “go back over
something”, as I have with John Torday’s stimulating approach, in
order to see what is in it that I must take into account (and <i><span
style='font-style:italic'>vice versa</span></i> I hope).<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt'>At this point, I feel I need a ‘refresher’
on Loet Leydesdorff’s important distinction, with reference to
information, between recursion and incursion. Loet?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt'>When one thinks outside the box, as Bob U. will have
us do, the air may seem a little thin, for a while. However, one can soon get
acclimatized, with some good will.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt'>Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt'>Joseph<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt'>-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Fis [mailto:<st1:PersonName w:st="on">fis</st1:PersonName>-bounces@listas.unizar.es]
On Behalf Of Mark Johnson<br>
Sent: mercredi, 10 janvier 2018 11:08<br>
To: JOHN TORDAY<br>
Cc: <st1:PersonName w:st="on">fis</st1:PersonName><br>
Subject: Re: [Fis] New Year Lecture</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt'>Dear John,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt'>Thank you very much for this - a great way to start
the new year!<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt'>I'd like to ask about "communication" - it's
a word which is<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt'>understood in many different ways, and in the context
of cells, is<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt'>hard to imagine.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt'>When you suggest that “the unicellular state
delegates its progeny to<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt'>interact with the environment as agents, collecting
data to inform the<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt'>recapitulating unicell of ecological changes that are
occurring.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt'>Through the acquisition and filtering of epigenetic
marks via meiosis,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt'>fertilization, and embryogenesis, even on into
adulthood, where the<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt'>endocrine system dictates the length and depth of the
stages of the<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt'>life cycle, now known to be under epigenetic control,
the unicell<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt'>remains in effective synchrony with environmental
changes.” It seems<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt'>that this is not communication of ‘signs’
in the Peircean sense<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt'>supported by the biosemioticians (Hoffmeyer). But is
it instead a<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt'>recursive set of transductions, much in the spirit of
Bateson’s<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt'>insight that:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt'>“Formerly we thought of a hierarchy of
taxa—individual, family line,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt'>subspecies, species, etc.—as units of survival.
We now see a different<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt'>hierarchy of units—gene-in-organism, organism-in
environment,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt'>ecosystem, etc. Ecology, in the widest sense, turns
out to be the<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt'>study of the interaction and survival of ideas and
programs (i.e.,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt'>differences, complexes of differences, etc.) in
circuits.” (from his<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt'>paper "Pathologies of Epistemology" in Steps
to an Ecology of Mind)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt'>Recursive transduction like this is a common theme in
cybernetics –<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt'>it's in Ashby's "Design for a Brain", Pask's
conversation theory, and<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt'>in Beer’s Viable System Model, where
“horizon scanning” (an<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt'>anticipatory sub-system gathering data from the
environment) is an<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt'>important part of the metasystem which maintains
viability of the<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt'>organism (It’s worth noting that Maturana and
Varela's autopoietic<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt'>theory overlooks this).<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt'>"Communication" would then be much more like
“conversation”…<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt'>etymologically, "con-versare"…
"to turn together”… dancing! Does this<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt'>fit?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt'>A further point is to then ask whether a logic of
evolutionary biology<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt'>is a logic of recursive transductions over history.
The critical point<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt'>is what <st1:PersonName w:st="on">Joseph Brenner</st1:PersonName>
argued before Christmas in objecting to Peirce:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt'>we struggle to express the specificity and basis for
change in our<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt'>logic. Do we need a different kind of logic?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt'>Best wishes and Happy new year,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt'>Mark<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt'>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt'>Fis mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt'>Fis@listas.unizar.es<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt'>http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/<st1:PersonName
w:st="on">fis</st1:PersonName><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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