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<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0">Hi Joeph,</p>
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<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0">You wrote on December 16 as follows:</p>
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<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0">"<span style="color: rgb(33, 33, 33); font-family: Arial, serif, EmojiFont; font-size: 13.3333px;"> Sungchul’s intuition of an “irreversible triadic relation” reflects the power of triads as cognitive attractors, but
discussion is blocked by his use of the word ‘irreversible’, required by the underlying idealist Peircean structure of his argument."</span></p>
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<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0"><span style="color: rgb(33, 33, 33); font-family: Arial, serif, EmojiFont; font-size: 13.3333px;">Please correct "<span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">irreversible</span>" to "<span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">irreducible</span>".
This may have caused some confusions in your understanding of my argument and Peirce's. The former is primarily a thermodynamic concept whereas the latter is a logical one, in my opinion. </span></p>
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<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0"><span style="color: rgb(33, 33, 33); font-family: Arial, serif, EmojiFont; font-size: 13.3333px;">Sung</span></p>
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<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000" style="font-size:11pt"><b>From:</b> Fis <fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es> on behalf of Joseph Brenner <joe.brenner@bluewin.ch><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, December 16, 2017 11:56 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Søren Brier'; 'fis'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fis] Comes the Revolution. The Real</font>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial; color:navy">Dear</span></font><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial; color:navy">
</span></font><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial; color:navy">Søren,</span></font></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial; color:navy">Thank you for a positive and constructive note and question. Although I maintain my critique of Peirce’s tychism and synechism
and his concepts of and manipulations of signs and diagrams, I have always seen value in many of his intuitions. I would be glad to consider him a ‘humanist with a semiotic worldview’. It takes all kinds . . . </span></font></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial; color:navy"> </span></font></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial; color:navy">I think for participants in this list to say what they mean by reality, exactly for, as you put it, a discussion of the
ontology and science behind various informational paradigms, would be very useful. Pedro, what do you think? For me reality is change and stability, being and becoming, appearance and, contradictorially, the reality behind appearance. This is why standard
logic doesn’t work. </span></font></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial; color:navy">Best Season’s Greetings,</span></font></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial; color:navy">Joseph</span></font></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial; color:navy">P.S. Perhaps a typo, but what is the sense of ‘treading’ in ‘treading processual concept’?</span></font></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Tahoma; font-weight:bold">From:</span></font></b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Tahoma"> Søren
Brier [mailto:sbr.msc@cbs.dk] <br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> samedi, 16 décembre 2017 13:28<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> Joseph Brenner; fis<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> RE: [Fis] Comes the Revolution</span></font><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span lang="DA" style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri">Dear Joseph</span></font></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span lang="DA" style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri"> </span></font></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri">This very Peircean of you as “</span></font><font size="2" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial">The
challenge is to reconcile our roles as informational organisms and agents within nature and as stewards of nature.” is at the centre of Peirce’s thinking instead that he uses the treading processual concept of sign instead of information as his basic concept
. I know that many call Peirce an objective idealist, although it is a form of realism I am not sure that this concept covers his combination of Tychism and synechism with a semiotic worldview. I think Peirce’s view is unique. But you<font color="navy"><span style="color:navy">r</span></font>
mail do<font color="navy"><span style="color:navy">es</span></font> put the focus on the importance of discussion the ontology behind the various informational paradigms.</span></font></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri">What do we mean when we use the term real for instance about
</span></font><font size="2" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial">Lupasco’s physical – biological – contradictorial information</span></font><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri">?
As I understand the term has been pretty important for your view.</span></font></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri"> Best</span></font></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri"> Søren</span></font></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="#1f497d" face="Calibri"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri; color:#1F497D"> </span></font></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><b><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri; font-weight:bold">From:</span></font></b><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Calibri">
Fis [mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es] <b><span style="font-weight:bold">On Behalf Of
</span></b>Joseph Brenner<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> 16. december 2017 10:15<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> fis <fis@listas.unizar.es><br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> [Fis] Comes the Revolution</span></font></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial">Dear Pedro, Dear FISers,</span></font></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial">I regret that I have difficulty in relating to the current FIS discussion, but that is my problem. I see little progress since the appearance of
Lupasco’s physical – biological – contradictorial information; Kauffman, Logan’s biotic and Ulanowicz’ apophatic information; Deacon’s Shannon – Boltzmann – Darwin information; and Wu’s revolution. Sungchul’s intuition of an “irreversible triadic relation”
reflects the power of triads as cognitive attractors, but discussion is blocked by his use of the word ‘irreversible’, required by the underlying idealist Peircean structure of his argument.
</span></font></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial">What I would like to see is the foundations of information being discussed in relation to the real problems of society, beyond questionnaires.
Some of these led yesterday to a prohibition of the use of seven words including foetus, diversity and science-based from certain U. S. Government documents. I think we need to have in the forefront of our minds the statement made by Floridi in his 2010 book,
<i><span style="font-style:italic">Information. A Very Short Introduction </span>
</i>(which all of you have read, of course): “The challenge is to reconcile our roles as informational organisms and agents within nature and as stewards of nature.”</span></font></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial"> </span></font></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial">I believe that such a perspective, placed as a criterion for selection of pertinent concepts, would make our discussions a lot deeper and more
relevant. </span></font></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial"> </span></font></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial">Thank you and best wishes,</span></font></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial"> </span></font></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial">Joesph</span></font></p>
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