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Joseph says that "Luhmann perhaps deserves some historical credit
for basing his theory on information". I would not give him any
special credit for this, but I do see value elsewhere. <br>
<br>
To my mind Luhmann does not base his theory on information, in the
sense of establishing a theory of information and then applying that
theory to understand how society works. Rather I see him trying to
answer the question "what is an institution, that it should be able
to survive longer than the people who operate within it, and how
does it achieve this?". In any case, that is the question that his
work helps me to think about. In addressing this issue, and thinking
about patterns of communication in autopoietic terms, Luhmann of
course had to take a position on what information might be.
<p> Institutions are indeed, as I see it, a kind of abstraction
standing above, and often pathologically ignoring or intervening
in, the 'contradictorial relations and dynamics' of individuals. <i>Pace
</i>Fuchs, I find it helpful to understand the mechanisms through
which institutions maintain this position. If we can understand
this, then we are better able to formulate how we might deal with
the problems and opportunities that institutions generate. Some or
many institutions (according to one's political position) have
Fascist implications. Alternatively (or simultaneously) they may
have benefits. But in any event, they are objects of study, not
artifacts of Luhmanns methodology, whatever we may think of it. <br>
</p>
<p>What Luhmann does not do is provide any insight about important
related questions, such as how political processes interact with
and flow through institutions, nor how individuals can or should
orient ourselves within those processes, nor what we should do
about pathological institutions. Nor (as far as I know) does
Luhmann offer a theory of information that makes claims for
application beyond the scope of his own inquiry. I don't think it
makes sense to consult Luhmann when looking for the answers to
these questions, nor to dismiss him for not providing the answers.</p>
<p>There are many on this list who know Luhmann's work much better
than I do, so I stand ready to be corrected!</p>
<p>Dai<br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 08/11/17 18:27, Joseph Brenner
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:2DBEBE1AE05249D3A91B5C92D3FF56A2@PCdeJoseph">
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<div><font size="2" face="Arial">Dear Jose Javier,</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">Thank you very much for your
constructive response to my note. I respect your view of
Luhmann and his constructivism (?), which you have certainly
correctly summarized in a few words. </font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">However, what the Lupasco theory
of actuality and potentiality does is to offer some
ontological basis for both, grounded in physics and is hence
in my opinion hence worthy of some modicum of our attention.
It <em>is </em>possible to talk about reality without the
pretty little diagrams and calculus of Spencer-Brown.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">
<div><font face="Arial"><font size="2">Luhmann talks about the
"constant interplay" between actual and potential, their
<em>ineinanderstehen</em>, but there is no functional
relation to the mundane properties of real physical
systems. As Loet showed at the time, Luhmannian
structures can be defined <em>analytically</em>, but
that is not enough for me. And a key point: why
'constant' interplay? Is there something wrong, or is it
just too real, to include discontinuities as equally
important as continuities?</font></font></div>
</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial"><font size="2">It should be clear that I
completely disagree with the place given to Luhmann in
current thought. Luhmann perhaps deserves some historical
credit for basing his theory on information. However, I
follow Christian Fuchs who said in 2006 that "The function
of Luhmann's theory for society is that it is completely
useless".</font></font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial"><font size="2">Society does not "contain"
human beings: society is a group of human beings composed of
individuals and the group and their contradictorial
relations and dynamics. Luhmann stated that the "ground of
being" is at the same time actuality and potentiality, but
tells us nothing about their nature and rules for their
evolution. Meaning cannot be a <em>unity</em> of
actualization and potentialization (or re- and re-). In
unity, the two lose their necessary specificity and basis
for change. Luhmann took human beings as agents out of his
system, and replaced them with abstractions. Fascist
ideology is not far away.</font></font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">If people would spend 1/20 the
time on Lupasco that they do on Pierce and Luhmann, . . .</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">Best regards,</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">Joseph </font></div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----
<div style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><b>From:</b>
<a title="javierweiss@gmail.com"
href="mailto:javierweiss@gmail.com" moz-do-not-send="true">Jose
Javier Blanco Rivero</a> </div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a title="joe.brenner@bluewin.ch"
href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" moz-do-not-send="true">Joseph
Brenner</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 08, 2017 11:20 AM</div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fis] Fw: Idealism and Materialism -
and Empiricism</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<p dir="ltr">Dear Joseph,</p>
<p dir="ltr">Luhmann's concept of meaning (Sinn) is defined
exactly as the unity of the difference between actuality and
potentiality. Maybe there an answer can be found.<br>
Besides, Luhmann's Sinn can also be translated as information
since it regards redundancy and selection. Luhmann self referred
to Sinn (which I'd rather to translate as sensemaking) as
information processing. </p>
<p dir="ltr">Best regards</p>
<div class="gmail_quote">El nov 8, 2017 6:59 AM, "Joseph Brenner"
<<a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch"
moz-do-not-send="true">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>>
escribió:<br type="attribution">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex;
MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">
<div bgcolor="white" link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="JA">
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">Dear Colleagues,</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">This is simply to register
a dissenting opinion, for similar reasons, with the last
two notes, if nothing else to say that there can be one:</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">1. Regarding John C.'s view
of the value of Pierce, there can be no common ground.
Scholastic, propositional logic is part of the problem.
His metaphysics has no ground in physics. Only Pierce's
intuitions, to which he gives less value, have some
value for me.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">2. Koichiro presents some
good science, but it is misapplied. Nothing tells us
that information, or another complex natural process,
evolves according to the trajectories that he describes:
</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"><font color="#1f497d">Any
robust loop trajectory appearing in biochemistry and
biology must be either clockwise or anti-clockwise,
and by no means an undisciplined mix of the two.</font></font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">Rather, like this
discussion, such processes follow follow a 'mix' but is
by no means undisciplined, even if it is partly
backwards and forwards at the same time. Such scare
words should not be used. <em>Pace </em>John, I think
what underlies both has been found in part, and it is
the linked movement of systems from actual to potential
and <em>vice versa. </em></font></div>
<div><em></em> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">What is missing from <em>my</em>
picture, since no-one seems to point to it, are the
detailed values of the path from actuality to
potentiality, which themselves may go from maxima to
minima, as discussed by Michel Godron. Michel has left
us . . .</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">Best regards,</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">Joseph</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----
<div style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><b>From:</b> <a
title="CXQ02365@nifty.com"
href="mailto:CXQ02365@nifty.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">Koichiro Matsuno</a> </div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a title="fis@listas.unizar.es"
href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">fis@listas.unizar.es</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 08, 2017 1:18 AM</div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fis] Idealism and Materialism</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div class="m_361313764930159012WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR:
#1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif" lang="EN-US">On
6 Nov 2017 at 5:30AM, John Collier wrote:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR:
#1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif" lang="EN-US"></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">In fact I would
argue that the notion of information as used in
physics is empirically based just as it is in the
cognitive sciences. Our problem is to find what
underlies both.</span><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt;
COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif"
lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR:
#1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif" lang="EN-US"></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR:
#1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif" lang="EN-US">
Yes, there have already been serious attempts in this
direction, though which may not yet have received due
attention from the folks interested in the issue of
information.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR:
#1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif" lang="EN-US"></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR:
#1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif" lang="EN-US">
One example is the entropy production fluctuation
theorem by Gavin Crooks (1999). The agenda is on the
distinction between states and events in
thermodynamics. An essence is seen in the uniqueness
of thermodynamics allowing for even the non-state or
history-dependent variable such as heat. This
perspective is powerful enough to precipitate a
dependable synthesis out of integrating both the state
and the process descriptions. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR:
#1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif" lang="EN-US"></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR:
#1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif" lang="EN-US">
When a microscopic system of interest contacts a heat
bath, its development along an arbitrary trajectory of
the state attributes of the system necessarily
accompanies the associated event of heat flow either
to or from the bath. If the trajectory is accompanied
by the heat flow to the bath over any finite time
interval, it would be far more likely compared with
the reversed trajectory absorbing the same amount of
heat flow from the bath. This has been a main message
from Crooks’ fluctuation theorem. One practical
implication of the theorem is that if the trajectory
happens to constitute a loop, the likely loop must be
the one having the net positive heat flow to the bath.
For the reversed loop trajectory would have to come to
accompany the same amount of heat flow from the bath
back into the inside of the system, and that would be
far less likely. Any robust loop trajectory appearing
in biochemistry and biology must be either clockwise
or anti-clockwise, and by no means an undisciplined
mix of the two.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR:
#1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif" lang="EN-US"></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR:
#1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif" lang="EN-US">
A lesson we could learn from this pedagogical example
is that thermodynamics is a naturalized tool for
making macroscopic events out of the state attributes
on the microscopic level irrespectively of whether or
not it may have already been called informational. It
is quite different from what statistical mechanics has
accomplished so far. Something called quantum
thermodynamics is gaining its momentum somewhere these
days. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR:
#1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif" lang="EN-US"></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR:
#1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif" lang="EN-US">
Koichiro Matsuno</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR:
#1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif" lang="EN-US"></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR:
#1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif" lang="EN-US"></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR:
#1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif" lang="EN-US"></span> </p>
<div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt;
COLOR: windowtext; FONT-FAMILY:
'Calibri',sans-serif" lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: windowtext;
FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif" lang="EN-US">
Fis [mailto:<a
href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">fis-bounces@listas.<wbr>unizar.es</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>John Collier<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 6, 2017 5:30 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fis] Idealism and Materialism</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"></span> </p>
<p><span lang="EN-US">Loet, I have no disagreement with
this. at least in the detailed summary you give. In
fact I would argue that the notion of information as
used in physics is empirically based just as it is in
the cognitive sciences. Our problem is to find what
underlies both.</span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-US">My mention of the Scholastics was to
Pierce's version, not the common interpretation due to
a dep misunderstanding about what they were up to. I
recommend a serous study of Peirce on te issues of
meaning and metaphysics. He wa deeply indebted to
their work iin logic.</span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-US">Of course there may be no common
ground, but the our project is hopeless. Other things
you have said on this group lead me to think it is not
a dead end of confused notions. In that case we are
wasting our time.</span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-US">John</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"></span> </p>
</div>
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Professor David (Dai) Griffiths
Professor of Education
School of Education and Psychology
The University of Bolton
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